"Not-free" maintenance - what do you think?

Originally Posted by Felliren

Has anyone developed any sort of consensus on this?

You'll never develop a consensus on oil changes, it's one of those perennial topics for which it is too expensive to develop meaningful data, so the arguments simply go on and on.

But here's my take in post #13 of this thread:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...rst+oil+change

Consensus? On anything"oil"?!?!?!?

HAHAHAHHAHA

Personally the super short, 1200 miles is more of a 'dino oil, old school' breakin... I'd just go for 'interstitial' changes on EVERY interval, first, second, etc.... so 4500-6000 ish

Originally Posted by ard

Consensus? On anything"oil"?!?!?!?

HAHAHAHHAHA

Personally the super short, 1200 miles is more of a 'dino oil, old school' breakin... I'd just go for 'interstitial' changes on EVERY interval, first, second, etc.... so 4500-6000 ish

Oh I know...I lived on the VW forums for 10 years. The fun posts are the people complaining about VW requiring synthetic oil and the subsequent cost for an oil change.

Nice to know I created some amusement on BimmerFest today!

I'm leaning towards your thinking...interstitial oil change.

Originally Posted by Felliren

I'm leaning towards your thinking...interstitial oil change.

I agree with the interstitial oil change strategy on an ongoing basis; however, I still like to do the first oil change before 2,000 miles due to the higher wear during initial break-in.

Originally Posted by Penguin

I agree with the interstitial oil change strategy on an ongoing basis; however, I still like to do the first oil change before 2,000 miles due to the higher wear during initial break-in.

Here is a hair splitter... or maybe one of those "eh, can go either way with zero difference"///

So the 35d has a 9k to 10k OCI... my experience.

So do a 2000, then 6000 then get the free 10000 change?

Or 2000, then 10k?

Or just 4-5k then 10k?

A

Originally Posted by ard

Here is a hair splitter... or maybe one of those "eh, can go either way with zero difference"///

So the 35d has a 9k to 10k OCI... my experience.

So do a 2000, then 6000 then get the free 10000 change?

Or 2000, then 10k?

Or just 4-5k then 10k?

A

I did 2,000 then 10K (actually 9K in my case),

2,000, then 6,000 then 10,000 is probably the best, but I figured an early first change was more important than a intermediate change, and I left on a 5K camping trip of the West with the odo at 5K, which I figured was a bit early. (got the free 9K oil change at the Idaho Falls dealer during the trip, which I highly recommend if in the area).

You are all just wasting your money.
service it when it asks for it, and get the free oil top offs that I've been reading about on here.

Mine needed Oil after 9,000 kms apparently normal, although I think it's excessive, but there you go.
it will get a filter and Oil change after approx 20,000 kms, or when the car asks for it.
I checked the service computer this weekend, and it says another 3600 kms to service.
I'll follow BMWs reccomendations, and if it blows up, they can rebuild it.

But I don't think it will !!

Originally Posted by Marlbro

I'll follow BMWs reccomendations, and if it blows up, they can rebuild it.

But I don't think it will !!

I'll stick with my program, having just gotten rid of a 1992 Ford Explorer with 198,000 miles on a Cologne V-6 engine, that never had any engine work, other than leaky valve cover gaskets once, and was using less than 1/2 quart every 5,000 miles at the end.

I would agree that if you don't keep vehicles more than 100,000 miles and you don't care what happens with it after you get rid of it, then sticking with the BMW specified intervals is easiest and cheapest.

FWIW...1200 is the "break-in" that was recommended by BMW for many years prior to them picking up the tab. I believe this is still the break-in recommended by the tech editor at BMW CCA. I will definitely do a break-in right around that number. Haven't decided on whether to do another one at 6K out of pocket and then wait for the "regular" service to come around 10K.

Originally Posted by Marlbro

I'll follow BMWs reccomendations, and if it blows up, they can rebuild it.

But I don't think it will !!

Agreed, since you will not be the owner after the warranty is up, correct?

Originally Posted by Marlbro

You are all just wasting your money.
service it when it asks for it, and get the free oil top offs that I've been reading about on here.

Mine needed Oil after 9,000 kms apparently normal, although I think it's excessive, but there you go.
it will get a filter and Oil change after approx 20,000 kms, or when the car asks for it.
I checked the service computer this weekend, and it says another 3600 kms to service.
I'll follow BMWs reccomendations, and if it blows up, they can rebuild it.

But I don't think it will !!

Well you probably never built an engine before. Plus the faster the engine wares out, the quicker you have to buy a new one. BMW's are only built to last 100,001 miles. Change the oil and don't follow the bean counters

Originally Posted by MRV99

Well you probably never built an engine before. Plus the faster the engine wares out, the quicker you have to buy a new one. BMW's are only built to last 100,001 miles. Change the oil and don't follow the bean counters

I've built plenty of engines before, and am fully aware of what engine wear is all about.
But in the last 30 years Engine Oils have advanced far beyond what they were back in 1945, when changing Oil every 3,000 miles was required.

if you want to change your Oil every 3 to 5,000 miles for your piece of mind, then do it.
But to assume that BMW are putting 15,000 mile service intervals in their manuals to build in a wear out factor that would mean you needing to bail for a new motor after 100,000 miles is crazy.
That would not do a lot of good for their credibility would it ???
Engine wear is all about lubrication, which is why a lot of modern engines deliberately use the oil.
better to use the Oil, forcing us to top it off regulary, thus keeping a fairly fresh supply in the motor, than to seal the rings so tight that they wear the cylinders quicker.
But going as far as totally changing it every 5,000 miles I think is excessive.
Just my 10 cents worth.

Originally Posted by Marlbro

But in the last 30 years Engine Oils have advanced far beyond what they were back in 1945, when changing Oil every 3,000 miles was required.

Actually, back in 1945 it was more like 1,000 miles using single-grade non-detergent oil and no oil filter. I've got a 1952 dodge and it recommends an oil change every 1,000 miles, as well as a chassis lube with every oil change.

Check out "Old School Maintenance Schedule" on the BMW CCA website. My mileage is way under 15K per year so I am in the yearly change which averages about 6500-7500 miles. So whether I agree or disagree with the extra oil changes is a mute point. The bottom line, as has already been said, if you feel more comfortable changing fluids more often than BMW recommends, just do it. No arguments and no discussions. We all must and need to do what we are comfortable with regardless of the task.

I had the oil, filter, front and rear differentials, and the transmission fluid changed at 1500 miles (the distance from the factory to home) for $525. I tend to keep my vehicles a long time and I do not want little bits of metal floating around in the fluids. Same service done on M cars, so it seemed like a good idea, I will change engine oil and folter wvery 7500 miles as I drive quite a bit. I average 2500 th 3000 miles per month.

Yeah I struggled with this when I saw the recommended interval, but eventually I caved. I do not think BMW would risk the reputation hit they would take from cutting corners on oil changes.

I'm not 100% convinced either way, but what helped me decide to skip the "break in" oil change was a conversation with my SA who pointed out that it's not just the higher quality oil that makes the recommended interval possible. It's the filtration technology, internal coatings and metal collection. (magnets I imagine) I haven't researched any of what he said though so who knows. He's lied to me before.

Originally Posted by chiplee

I'm not 100% convinced either way, but what helped me decide to skip the "break in" oil change was a conversation with my SA who pointed out that it's not just the higher quality oil that makes the recommended interval possible. It's the filtration technology, internal coatings and metal collection. (magnets I imagine) I haven't researched any of what he said though so who knows. He's lied to me before.

That's all true, but there is no question that there is more wear and contamination of the oil when the engine is new. So my logic tells me either the very first oil change interval is too long, or the subsequent ones are too short.

Personally, I think they skip the shorter break-in oil change for simplicity and customer convenience, sorta like why they took-out the temperature gauge on most BMWs (don't worry about the engine temp, it will tell you if there's a problem).

I don't think BMW worries about the impact on their reputation, as it probably won't affect a vehicle until after 100,000 miles. And BMW doesn't seem too worried that they had a lot of transmission failures post-warranty... at least not enough to help-out people with the transmission failures.

BMW's target customer is someone who trades-in frequently or leases, not people who buy and drive 100K+. So their only concern is if it gets bad enough to drop resale/trade-in values enough to put-off the frequent****er segment.

P.S. Oddly enough, hyphenating "Frequent buyer" seems to get the B.U.Y.E.R word censored.

Frequent buyer
Frequent****er

I guess the hyphen makes it into something obscene.

Originally Posted by Penguin

That's all true, but there is no question that there is more wear and contamination of the oil when the engine is new. So my logic tells me either the very first oil change interval is too long, or the subsequent ones are too short.

Personally, I think they skip the shorter break-in oil change for simplicity and customer convenience, sorta like why they took-out the temperature gauge on most BMWs (don't worry about the engine temp, it will tell you if there's a problem).

I don't think BMW worries about the impact on their reputation, as it probably won't affect a vehicle until after 100,000 miles. And BMW doesn't seem too worried that they had a lot of transmission failures post-warranty... at least not enough to help-out people with the transmission failures.

BMW's target customer is someone who trades-in frequently or leases, not people who buy and drive 100K+. So their only concern is if it gets bad enough to drop resale/trade-in values enough to put-off the frequent****er segment.

P.S. Oddly enough, hyphenating "Frequent buyer" seems to get the B.U.Y.E.R word censored.

Frequent buyer
Frequent****er

I guess the hyphen makes it into something obscene.

Very concise and on point...

On the bolded part....

It is my belief that BMW actually uses the term 'customer' and their needs and desires as "design inputs" to their various quality systems and design systems ('systems' being 'procedures' or how they go about determining how to specify something or build somethings)...but they've actually determined that the second, third, etc, owner IS NOT THEIR CUSTOMER! They are 'responsible' only to the first buyer. (They don't just cut it off, but you can see that if it isn't necessary to keep end users happy after 50k miles, the amount of money BMW needs to spend can be drastically reduced.) We will never really know, but this factor can formally be added into the design process without being an unusual or awkward issue, nor appear too manipulative to those that are carrying the changes out.

So when I hear a dealer SA, who's perspective is created with one pitcher of Kool Aid after another, talk about all reasons why no more maintenance is needed, I get a little worried he is speaking about a different customer than I.


I was touring the MB museum in Stuttgart last year, and was looking at some old tractors- it was a BIG DEAL for a family to buy a tractor, a real step up in prosperity. That tractor was shared among brothers, and then passed down from father to son. As valuable as the land itself. And then came cars, with the same kind of thinking- an asset to be passed along... My fathers mercedes....

What an alien concept in a world of disposable vehicles....

Interesting, but that is absolutely the opposite of my impression of BMW. It sounds more like something you'd hear said about the "pre-crash" Chevy or Ford. Engineers and marketing analysts spewing sellout logic like, "just build them good enough to survive the warranty period, plus a little. Who cares if they fall apart on second and third hand owners?"

I guess maybe I've been slipped a bit of that koolaid, but I regard BMW as the epitome of engineering excellence. My "impression" is that BMW vehicles serviced at manufacturer prescribed intervals can be expected to provide a lifetime of reliable service. Or at least a well above average usable lifetime. I don't think BMW got that reputation by disregarding the post warranty longevity of their product. As someone else said, ultimately we'll never know. I just don't think they would conclude that the future risk was worth an oil change. Seems trivial and ridiculous in fact. I'm honestly supremely confident that the prescribed interval is based on mountains of data that suggest it will have negligible ill effect on engine life. To me nothing else stands to reason.

Originally Posted by chiplee

Interesting, but that is absolutely the opposite of my impression of BMW. It sounds more like something you'd hear said about the "pre-crash" Chevy or Ford. Engineers and marketing analysts spewing sellout logic like, "just build them good enough to survive the warranty period, plus a little. Who cares if they fall apart on second and third hand owners?"

I guess maybe I've been slipped a bit of that koolaid, but I regard BMW as the epitome of engineering excellence. My "impression" is that BMW vehicles serviced at manufacturer prescribed intervals can be expected to provide a lifetime of reliable service. Or at least a well above average usable lifetime. I don't think BMW got that reputation by disregarding the post warranty longevity of their product. As someone else said, ultimately we'll never know. I just don't think they would conclude that the future risk was worth an oil change. Seems trivial and ridiculous in fact. I'm honestly supremely confident that the prescribed interval is based on mountains of data that suggest it will have negligible ill effect on engine life. To me nothing else stands to reason.

Just curious how many BMW's you have experienced?

I'm only on my second, but my father has had 4 and not one of them has been anything that you could call reliable. He puts on high mileage and follows the BMW maintenance plan religiously but it has not helped with the reliablity of any of his vehicles. The money he's dumped into them after the warranty expires is ridiculous.

We'll see over time with mine, but I certainly have no intention of keeping it on a long term basis and especially out of warranty.

Originally Posted by Cdnrockies

Just curious how many BMW's you have experienced?

I'm only on my second, but my father has had 4 and not one of them has been anything that you could call reliable. He puts on high mileage and follows the BMW maintenance plan religiously but it has not helped with the reliablity of any of his vehicles. The money he's dumped into them after the warranty expires is ridiculous.

We'll see over time with mine, but I certainly have no intention of keeping it on a long term basis and especially out of warranty.

Personally this is my first, but there have been quite a few in my family, and I have quite a few peers who own BMWs. One is a 2002 M5 that has just been bullet proof. Either way, I'll admit It is quite possible that my impression of BMW reliability is flawed, and we have no intention of ever owning a BMW out of warranty, so I guess that's pretty telling.

Originally Posted by chiplee

I guess maybe I've been slipped a bit of that koolaid, but I regard BMW as the epitome of engineering excellence. My "impression" is that BMW vehicles serviced at manufacturer prescribed intervals can be expected to provide a lifetime of reliable service. Or at least a well above average usable lifetime. I don't think BMW got that reputation by disregarding the post warranty longevity of their product.

Google "BMW transmission problems"

One thing is the oil will break down and loose it's detergent properties. After that if you do not run these engines at high rpm then the oiling systems which were designed just for that will become clogged and reduce the oiling capabilities which will cause the damage.

The filters have gotten better but they are still pretty much the same.

Magnets will not work in a BMW engine. Just try to pick up a soda/ beer can with a magnet. Won't happen because AL is nonferrous. Your engine is a big wad of cans so the magnets is not the answer.

This oil intervals are due to two things, Govt pressure to reduce automotive waste and planned obsolescence. Why is the BMW definition of lifetime 100,000+ miles or when it fails or wears out. NO warranty exposure and new cars are cheaper to own

Originally Posted by MRV99

One thing is the oil will break down and lose its detergent properties. After that if you do not run these engines at high rpm then the oiling systems which were designed just for that will become clogged and reduce the oiling capabilities which will cause the damage.

Well that's good. We run the piss out of ours.

Magnets will not work in a BMW engine. Just try to pick up a soda/ beer can with a magnet. Won't happen because AL is nonferrous. Your engine is a big wad of cans so the magnets is not the answer.

This is interesting and news to me if true. I was not aware of ANY internal combustion engine that was using aluminum on the surfaces that wear. I.E. piston rings, cylinder walls, rod and crank bearings, cam lobes and rocker arms (N/A in valvetronic engines) etc.. We see aluminum blocks, rods, cylinder heads, etc. sure, but not wear surfaces. To my knowledge, even in engines with aluminum and magnesium blocks, there is still a cast iron or steel sleeve in the cylinder 100% of the time, or a high dollar coating that makes it unnecessary to sleeve. My understanding is that rings are NEVER made of all aluminum due to the inability of aluminum to withstand the forces applied to rings. Pistons are aluminum, but they don't contact metal. Good bearings are made of complex alloys and are designed to actually catch particles that come into contact with them. If BMW has cracked the code on an aluminum alloy that can be used as a bearing or piston ring, that's awesome, but unless I missed something huge in my last 20 years of engine building, it would also be revolutionary.