Spot Welds Failing?

I've been hearing sharp snapping / popping sounds coming from high on the driver's side B and C pillars. After much work on the part of the dealer, I'm told the sound is actually coming from the spot welds above the pillars. Dealer is not aware of any way to cure and has sought help from BMW, but has no response yet.

Has anyone had any similar experience? What can be done?

BRM

your x5 new?

i would be thinking asking for new car, as if these welds are failing what about the rest, seems like a very big safety issue
if your X5 is new i would demand a new one.

+1! -- if the welds are failing they need to replace your car.

Originally Posted by Billyraymallard

Has anyone had any similar experience?

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...uy+back+pillar

Well, I also hear some noise from both c-pillars, especially, when going through bumps... in my 530d it was part of the lock mechanism which touches to c-pillar which needed grease - at least the noise was gone after grease was applied

I was going to report it during the first inspection (in 4k miles or so)

My 2 cents.

If they offer to buy back your car, I would think they could reasonably reduce the purchase price for the number of miles driven. Maybe 15 cents/mile which is what you can buy "extra" lease miles for up front?

Not saying they will, but it would seem fair, since you have had the use of the vehicle for X months and Y miles of driving.

Please keep us posted on how this plays out, for as long as you can. (At some point they will likely have you sign a non-disclosure agreement).

PS Could you let us know the build date of your car? (Stamped on the black plate inside the left front door). My guess is that they had a problem with the robotic welder, and other vehicles built around the same time as yours are likely to have the same problem.

I had the same problem with my 2011 x5. I bitched up a storm with BMWNA, however they were completely useless and unwilling to buy back the car. Apparently they are getting multiple instances of this occurance and the PUMA team has devised a fix, which is to reinforce the welds. After wasting 2 months of my time, I gave up and let them fix it. The fix is fine, however I still believe they should have taken the vehicle back. Small dollars to do the right thing let alone the intabgibles associated with retaining what would have been a lifetime customer...doesn't help the bottom line on their goal to become the biggest not the best. The strategy didn't work so well for the other 'big 3'...

Sorry about the rant, PM me if you have any questions about this issue.

Supposedly BMWNA examined the vehicle and recommended a fix that requires cutting away inside panels, re welding the broken spot welds and then welding the cutaway panels back into place. Dealer says this can all be done in several days and will not impact the exterior body work of the vehicle nor will it affect safety, but I will never know.

I expresssed concerns on safety and soundness of the vehicle and was told that despite all appearances, the car isn't really falling apart after just 3,000 miles, just certain piecees of it. They think the other welds should be fine.

I talked with BMWNA. They said they need several days to look into the matter, but if their response is in any way consistent with the dealer's then I will file a complaint with NHTSA. I don't see how I can trust these guys with the safety of me and my children, despite their assurances that indeed I really can.

Originally Posted by Billyraymallard

Supposedly BMWNA examined the vehicle and recommended a fix that requires cutting away inside panels, re welding the broken spot welds and then welding the cutaway panels back into place. Dealer says this can all be done in several days and will not impact the exterior body work of the vehicle nor will it affect safety, but I will never know.

I expresssed concerns on safety and soundness of the vehicle and was told that despite all appearances, the car isn't really falling apart after just 3,000 miles, just certain piecees of it. They think the other welds should be fine. Then I was told that if I wanted to talk with BMW to better understand the situation and implications for safety that I should come and get the car the hell off their lot, that they won't hold it while I do that. Thank you Westchester BMW!

I talked with BMWNA. They said they need several days to look into the matter, but if their response is in any way consistent with the dealer's then I will file a complaint with NHTSA. I don't see how I can trust these guys with the safety of me and my children, despite their assurances that indeed I really can.

Save yourself the wait time and see my above post. BMW NA saw enough of these cases that they stopped buying back the cars (they initially did) and devised this 'fix'. Once the market team manager assigned to your case at BMW NA does his research he'll tell you that 'the dealer has reccomended a solution and that they can't help you with a buyout'.

Makes that Mercedes SUV start to look pretty appealing huh?

Originally Posted by quackbury

PS Could you let us know the build date of your car? (Stamped on the black plate inside the left front door). My guess is that they had a problem with the robotic welder, and other vehicles built around the same time as yours are likely to have the same problem.

Quack - I've seen sporadic cases have pop up as early as late summer 2010 and as recently as late summer 2011. I was told back in spring/summer that BMW changed the procedure to correct this manufacturing defect, however given the OP's mileage it doesn't appear they have done so effectively (given his mileage).

Yeah, but still can't get the safety issue out of my mind. I'm not an automotive engineer and don't fully understand the risk differences between a weak frame and loose body panels. I always assumed they were equally important to the integrity of the vehicle.

I'm inclined to authorize the work and then sell the car. Our federal government and tax dollars can do the heavy lifting of determining how much of a safety risk exists in loose body panels. Will cost BMW who knows what to answer the inquiry and monster sums if they need to recall.

I don't blame you for being worried about the safety issue. I certainly would not fault you for not keeping the car. As quackbury mentioned though, the build date of your car would be useful for anyone else that sees this post. I would be interested to know if this affects any 2012 models as well.

Jan 2011 build.

I don't have this issue, so no great burning personal interest in prosecuting this... but it seems to me that this may be a fairly significant safety defect that could impact occupant safety in the event of a crash. It also seems that this defect may be present in a significant number of cars AND may not be obvious....

BMW has a legal responsibility to ensure ALL cars meet certain performance standards, and when a manufacturing process that is critical to structural integrity is found to be out of compliance (in terms of the originally validated and tested process) they have a responsibility to ensure all cars built still meet the original tested configuration.

So while they may have a new procedure repairs once people complain of noise, HOW ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DO NOT COMPLAIN? This is a significant legal and $$ exposure for BMW. I've got to assume they've considered this, I wonder if we will see something....

Second, alterations to the structure that could impact this original tested configuration require either justification or re-testing. I assume that what we have seen here was the original issue, BMW not having adequte data to have a recommended repair, but then they developed an repair method that met regulatory and quality requirements and hence now they are recommending this repair.


If it was my car, I would not be happy... I'd be drilling down on the details with BMW such that they clearly understand that they could potentially have a larger issue besides just my one car. The difficulty is that the people who will be handling this as 'front line' staff at BMW don't think in terms of risk management.... so the trick may be to get past that once you've established a weakness or strategy...


A

I agree, Ard. But not sure how to best take it forward as my journey is hopefully at an end.

I met with the very understanding and professional GM this morning who immediately offered to put me into a new vehicle without my even finishing my story and asking. I could have ordered the exact same vehicle new, or picked anything off the lot within reason. Rather than wait for the new build, I selected one off the lot with nearly identical specs, though in a different color than I had. I pick it up next week. Have to say the Ray Catena team was responsive and extremely pleasant to deal with. They kept apologizing for the inconvenience, which of course it is, but it was very nice all the same. Even my wife is happy.

Wow. You can't ask for better customer service than that! Props to the dealer, and also to you for handling this in such a professional manner.

Sent from my HTC Inspire using BimmerApp

Originally Posted by ard

I don't have this issue, so no great burning personal interest in prosecuting this... but it seems to me that this may be a fairly significant safety defect that could impact occupant safety in the event of a crash. It also seems that this defect may be present in a significant number of cars AND may not be obvious....

BMW has a legal responsibility to ensure ALL cars meet certain performance standards, and when a manufacturing process that is critical to structural integrity is found to be out of compliance (in terms of the originally validated and tested process) they have a responsibility to ensure all cars built still meet the original tested configuration.

So while they may have a new procedure repairs once people complain of noise, HOW ABOUT PEOPLE WHO DO NOT COMPLAIN? This is a significant legal and $$ exposure for BMW. I've got to assume they've considered this, I wonder if we will see something....

Second, alterations to the structure that could impact this original tested configuration require either justification or re-testing. I assume that what we have seen here was the original issue, BMW not having adequte data to have a recommended repair, but then they developed an repair method that met regulatory and quality requirements and hence now they are recommending this repair.


If it was my car, I would not be happy... I'd be drilling down on the details with BMW such that they clearly understand that they could potentially have a larger issue besides just my one car. The difficulty is that the people who will be handling this as 'front line' staff at BMW don't think in terms of risk management.... so the trick may be to get past that once you've established a weakness or strategy...


A

ard, well said. Back in college I had a drunk pass out behind the wheel and rear end me at high speed as I was stopped for a red light. The only 2 things that saved my butt were 1) I was in a large and sturdy vehicle myself 2) I happen to look in my rear view mirror a second before impact and managed to get my foot off the brake and hit the gas. I walked away with a mild concussion, minor neck injuries and some sore body parts. It could have been much worse. Ever since then, vehicle safety has been a big deal for me. If multiple spot welds in my car were failing, this certainly would worry me. Billyraymallard, glad to hear you are getting a new car.

billyray, if your wife is happy you will be happy! Now, lets hope the new one doesn't have weld probs too!

I am new to Bimmer fest so please accept my apologies up front. I should have joined sooner. Here is my issue which appears to be in line with this thread. On November 30th, 2011 I purchased a new 2012 X5 Premium. Within a few months I noticed a popping sound coming from
what appeared to be behind the seat belt restraint. I brought the vehicle in on several occasions to the dealer, who was also able to replicate the issue. Well, after 5 trips and a few weeks in the shop, BMW has now come forward and said my spot welds in the headliner, A,B pillars are failing.
They have had the car a little over a week now and expect at least 1 more week until I get it back. I am infuriated at the amount of time I have spent on dealing with this and stated to the dealer (which by the way is the best dealership I have ever worked with) that if there is as much as a finger
print on the headliner etc, they WILL buy the car back at cost. The dealer stated they would ensure no issues. Will have to wait and see as the car is scheduled to be ready for Friday 8/31/12. Will update everyone with the outcome. I guess my issue is now with how the car will be once they
have removed/reinstalled the headliner and all pillar molding.................Anyone else been down this road or know of a way for me to get out of this car if issues still arise? Thanks

I am new to Bimmer fest so please accept my apologies up front. I should have joined sooner. Here is my issue which appears to be in line with this thread. On November 30th, 2011 I purchased a new 2012 X5 Premium. Within a few months I noticed a popping sound coming from
what appeared to be behind the seat belt restraint. I brought the vehicle in on several occasions to the dealer, who was also able to replicate the issue. Well, after 5 trips and a few weeks in the shop, BMW has now come forward and said my spot welds in the headliner, A,B pillars are failing.
They have had the car a little over a week now and expect at least 1 more week until I get it back. I am infuriated at the amount of time I have spent on dealing with this and stated to the dealer (which by the way is the best dealership I have ever worked with) that if there is as much as a finger
print on the headliner etc, they WILL buy the car back at cost. The dealer stated they would ensure no issues. Will have to wait and see as the car is scheduled to be ready for Friday 8/31/12. Will update everyone with the outcome. I guess my issue is now with how the car will be once they
have removed/reinstalled the headliner and all pillar molding.................Anyone else been down this road or know of a way for me to get out of this car if issues still arise? Thanks

Originally Posted by mikepottier

I am new to Bimmer fest so please accept my apologies up front. I should have joined sooner. Here is my issue which appears to be in line with this thread. On November 30th, 2011 I purchased a new 2012 X5 Premium. Within a few months I noticed a popping sound coming from
what appeared to be behind the seat belt restraint. I brought the vehicle in on several occasions to the dealer, who was also able to replicate the issue. Well, after 5 trips and a few weeks in the shop, BMW has now come forward and said my spot welds in the headliner, A,B pillars are failing.
They have had the car a little over a week now and expect at least 1 more week until I get it back. I am infuriated at the amount of time I have spent on dealing with this and stated to the dealer (which by the way is the best dealership I have ever worked with) that if there is as much as a finger
print on the headliner etc, they WILL buy the car back at cost. The dealer stated they would ensure no issues. Will have to wait and see as the car is scheduled to be ready for Friday 8/31/12. Will update everyone with the outcome. I guess my issue is now with how the car will be once they
have removed/reinstalled the headliner and all pillar molding.................Anyone else been down this road or know of a way for me to get out of this car if issues still arise? Thanks

Sorry to hear. Did you read all the posts above?

Are they repainting your car?!??! "fingerprints on the headliner" would not be high on my list of issues. Did they explain what will be done? I'd drop by for a look-see. For all you know the car is in the body shop with some very invasive repairs.

In terms of 'rights', read up on the lemon law in your state. Take all your BMW Dealer Work Orders and count up the days they've had it. The day it goes over ___ days, demand a lemon buy back.

Is reprinting on the outside a fact? The dealer never said anything about painting.

Originally Posted by mikepottier

Is reprinting on the outside a fact? The dealer never said anything about painting.

Why ask me?

Let me put it this way: Had the dealer told you it would require paint, what would you have done??? So considering that, maybe the SA just 'managed' you and didnt tell you all the details?

But truthfully, I dont not what they are rewelding so cannot opine on repaint. I'd drop by unannounced to inspect.

A

I had a popping noise by the passenger side C pillar. Turned out to be the rear setback locking mechanism was rattling when I went over bumps. Applied some grease to the locking mechanism as well as the bar it attaches to and the problem was resolved . My build date was November 2009.