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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #1  
Old 02-06-2011, 05:50 PM
dunccfp dunccfp is offline
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What Shiftpoints Do You Use??

I have a F10 535i. Often, when driving conditions allow, I like to punch it out. When I look at the torque curve for this engine, torque peaks out at about 5000rpm. I notice less acceleration from 5000 to 6000 rpms and then a marked dropoff from 6000 to 7000 redline. Often I use the paddles to shift gears in the high 5000's or low 6000's. Only problem with that is that then, in the next gear, I have less pull for a few moments as it comes back in at lower rpms due to the early shift.

What have you guys experienced ?? Do you let the transmissiion do the shifting ??

Incidently, besides what I just mentioned, I think that the transmission is fantastic, so much so, that I believe that you can't outshift it manually.

Last edited by dunccfp; 02-06-2011 at 05:52 PM.
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  #2  
Old 02-07-2011, 12:29 AM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunccfp View Post
I have a F10 535i. Often, when driving conditions allow, I like to punch it out. When I look at the torque curve for this engine, torque peaks out at about 5000rpm. I notice less acceleration from 5000 to 6000 rpms and then a marked dropoff from 6000 to 7000 redline. Often I use the paddles to shift gears in the high 5000's or low 6000's. Only problem with that is that then, in the next gear, I have less pull for a few moments as it comes back in at lower rpms due to the early shift.

What have you guys experienced ?? Do you let the transmissiion do the shifting ??
The N55 power band, if I recall correctly, is flat as Kansas between 3k and 6k rpm. You shouldn't see much drop off except during the shift. Do you see it also in the auto S mode?

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Originally Posted by dunccfp View Post
Incidently, besides what I just mentioned, I think that the transmission is fantastic, so much so, that I believe that you can't outshift it manually.
It's fantastic as far as slush boxes go, but you just keep brainwashing yourself that it's better than rowing it manually.
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  #3  
Old 02-07-2011, 05:57 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
It's fantastic as far as slush boxes go, but you just keep brainwashing yourself that it's better than rowing it manually.
I really hate when people say this. You like it better, fine. Please respect that others may not share that opinion. I see this argument all the time in DSG vs. manual arguments.
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  #4  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:23 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I really hate when people say this. You like it better, fine. Please respect that others may not share that opinion. I see this argument all the time in DSG vs. manual arguments.
It is quite disturbing that there are a couple of people that have to talk in a negative sense about things they do not really know of.
Without giving any real information, but only an unfounded opinion.
At this site:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/compa..._worldwide.jsp
you can learn a lot about the state of the art transmissions in the F10.
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  #5  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:30 AM
dunccfp dunccfp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
The N55 power band, if I recall correctly, is flat as Kansas between 3k and 6k rpm. You shouldn't see much drop off except during the shift. Do you see it also in the auto S mode?



It's fantastic as far as slush boxes go, but you just keep brainwashing yourself that it's better than rowing it manually.
The power band is flat from 1200 to 5000 not 6000.

Last edited by dunccfp; 02-07-2011 at 09:16 AM.
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  #6  
Old 02-07-2011, 07:31 AM
dunccfp dunccfp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
It is quite disturbing that there are a couple of people that have to talk in a negative sense about things they do not really know of.
Without giving any real information, but only an unfounded opinion.
At this site:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/compa..._worldwide.jsp
you can learn a lot about the state of the art transmissions in the F10.
Funny.....he got his M3 in girl colors....but he has a standard transmission.....Thank God !!

Last edited by dunccfp; 02-07-2011 at 09:15 AM.
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  #7  
Old 02-07-2011, 08:19 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Guys, no need to start a war. It's been my observation that there are some people who have the same view toward manual shifters as the NRA does toward guns...as in "..when you pry it from my cold dead hands". And I am not saying anything negative against that. That's an opinion and I can respect it.

I do not like when people use "better". Better for you is not necessarily better for me. In my case, I was really looking forward to the purchase of my Volvo R replacement. The R was my wife's car when we bought it, and she does not drive stick. When we moved to Virginia, she took the Acura and I took the Volvo for daily driving. I was very much looking forward to buying a car with a manual transmission to replace it as it had been a long time since I owned one, and to be honest, I really miss it. About 6 months ago, I was completely convinced that our next car was going to be a B8 S4 with a manual trans - even though Audi's DSG is fabulous.

But as I thought about what we used the car for, and where I live and how I drive the car on a daily basis, I realized that getting a manual trans car would be like owning a 60" HDTV and using a set of rabbit ears to pick up broadcast TV. Frustrating at best. My main beefs with the auto in the Volvo were that it was almost never locked up at lower speeds and when you got on and off the throttle, it was almost as bad as a CVT. It never seemed to be in the right gear, shifts were sometimes clumsy and it neutered the car's performance. The ZF is the complete opposite of that. So in my case, the auto is "better" for me.

Now, the debate rages...DSG vs. MT. In a car like the M3, which I've driven with both transmissions, I have to say that I loved firing through the gears with the DCT transmission. To me, it was even more fun than the rewarding pastime of rowing it myself.

I hope we can respect each other's opinions and get away from saying things like "better". or "best".
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Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians
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  #8  
Old 02-07-2011, 09:35 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
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I like my Volkswagen Golf GTI 2L non DSG(!).
It is not driving like a RWD BMW for sure.
But it is fun to skelter with it from time to time using the 6 speed manual gearbox.
Sadly as for most VAG products the car has quite some understeer.
But that is all in the package when you drive a FWD.
For all other purposes but skeltering the F11 is far superior in my opinion.
Comparing these two cars is not quite possible while they are so different.
And that is exactly the reason I like to have them both.
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  #9  
Old 02-07-2011, 11:03 AM
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johnbmw6 johnbmw6 is offline
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I disliked the E90 M3 in manual form, I loved it in M-DCT so I bought one with this M-DCT.
The 550i MS has 8 speed and suits me perfectly, here in the UK manual transmission is not an option. I would not chose it even if it were.
So the f10 comes auto full stop.
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  #10  
Old 02-07-2011, 11:33 PM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I really hate when people say this. You like it better, fine. Please respect that others may not share that opinion. I see this argument all the time in DSG vs. manual arguments.
Perhaps "better" wasn't the best word to describe it, but I was just responding to the "can't outshift" comment. My bad. By the way, why bring DSG into the picture?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
It is quite disturbing that there are a couple of people that have to talk in a negative sense about things they do not really know of.
Without giving any real information, but only an unfounded opinion.
At this site:
http://www.zf.com/corporate/en/compa..._worldwide.jsp
you can learn a lot about the state of the art transmissions in the F10.
Which part of "fantastic" is negative?


Quote:
Originally Posted by dunccfp View Post
The power band is flat from 1200 to 5000 not 6000.
I stand corrected.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dunccfp View Post
Funny.....he got his M3 in girl colors....but he has a standard transmission.....Thank God !!
And that's supposed to offend me? Save the 6th grade insult for people who care.

My Z4M is a Black Sapphire; is that manly enough for you?


Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Guys, no need to start a war. It's been my observation that there are some people who have the same view toward manual shifters as the NRA does toward guns...as in "..when you pry it from my cold dead hands". And I am not saying anything negative against that. That's an opinion and I can respect it.

I do not like when people use "better". Better for you is not necessarily better for me. In my case, I was really looking forward to the purchase of my Volvo R replacement. The R was my wife's car when we bought it, and she does not drive stick. When we moved to Virginia, she took the Acura and I took the Volvo for daily driving. I was very much looking forward to buying a car with a manual transmission to replace it as it had been a long time since I owned one, and to be honest, I really miss it. About 6 months ago, I was completely convinced that our next car was going to be a B8 S4 with a manual trans - even though Audi's DSG is fabulous.

But as I thought about what we used the car for, and where I live and how I drive the car on a daily basis, I realized that getting a manual trans car would be like owning a 60" HDTV and using a set of rabbit ears to pick up broadcast TV. Frustrating at best. My main beefs with the auto in the Volvo were that it was almost never locked up at lower speeds and when you got on and off the throttle, it was almost as bad as a CVT. It never seemed to be in the right gear, shifts were sometimes clumsy and it neutered the car's performance. The ZF is the complete opposite of that. So in my case, the auto is "better" for me.

Now, the debate rages...DSG vs. MT. In a car like the M3, which I've driven with both transmissions, I have to say that I loved firing through the gears with the DCT transmission. To me, it was even more fun than the rewarding pastime of rowing it myself.

I hope we can respect each other's opinions and get away from saying things like "better". or "best".
Again, I shouldn't have used "better". My apologies for the umpteenth time. Again though, slushbox isn't DSG or DCT, so what's the point of bringing it up? By the way, I've been commuting in my stickshifts in California traffic and it's nothing like what you describe.
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Last edited by enigma; 02-07-2011 at 11:34 PM.
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  #11  
Old 02-08-2011, 02:09 AM
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johnbmw6 johnbmw6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Perhaps "better" wasn't the best word to describe it, but I was just responding to the "can't outshift" comment. My bad. By the way, why bring DSG into the picture?




Which part of "fantastic" is negative?




I stand corrected.




And that's supposed to offend me? Save the 6th grade insult for people who care.

My Z4M is a Black Sapphire; is that manly enough for you?




Again, I shouldn't have used "better". My apologies for the umpteenth time. Again though, slushbox isn't DSG or DCT, so what's the point of bringing it up? By the way, I've been commuting in my stickshifts in California traffic and it's nothing like what you describe.
Enigma, I am suprised you "rose" to this banter mate, just ignore it.
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Old 02-08-2011, 04:40 AM
highyo highyo is offline
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It is very hard to feel the connection to a car that you have when you are using 3 pedals. even the DCT is not the same, the motion of clutch, gear, clutch, gas becomes so natural and so unique to each car (even the SAME exact style) that you can not help but feel you develop a deeper understanding of it's capabilities. only then can you truly "learn" the car. i am sad to see (for example) ferrari do away with MT because there is so much communication between you and the car through your left foot. Fast shifts will of course never be as fast than in a DCT but something else is lost.

i'm saying all this and i feel very passionate about the 8 gear AT in the f10. or more appropriately, the 7 gears because unless i've hit cruise control, i'm in sport mode. that's just where the car and i "understand" each other the most! it shifts faster (sometimes i feel like it reads my mind) than i can ever do it on my own, and i don't use the pedals at all.

but i think that the automotive world has sacrificed a ton of feel at the alter of speed of shifting. And i TRULY appreciate that Bayerische still makes the 5er with MT.

i bet the 1 with M has a fantastic MT... i KNOW that the M3 does.
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  #13  
Old 02-08-2011, 07:42 AM
dunccfp dunccfp is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by enigma View Post
Perhaps "better" wasn't the best word to describe it, but I was just responding to the "can't outshift" comment. My bad. By the way, why bring DSG into the picture?




Which part of "fantastic" is negative?




I stand corrected.




And that's supposed to offend me? Save the 6th grade insult for people who care.

My Z4M is a Black Sapphire; is that manly enough for you?




Again, I shouldn't have used "better". My apologies for the umpteenth time. Again though, slushbox isn't DSG or DCT, so what's the point of bringing it up? By the way, I've been commuting in my stickshifts in California traffic and it's nothing like what you describe.
What I really meant to say is you can't outshift the automatic transmission manually. Manual vs automatic is a whole different story. Even if manual is better I don't care to drive one except for the 10% of the time I'm driving like an animal. It would cost me tickets and gas.

Anyway....let's get back to the subject of the thread.......

Last edited by dunccfp; 02-08-2011 at 08:44 AM.
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  #14  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:57 PM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnbmw6 View Post
Enigma, I am suprised you "rose" to this banter mate, just ignore it.
Duly noted ;-)

Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
It is very hard to feel the connection to a car that you have when you are using 3 pedals. even the DCT is not the same, the motion of clutch, gear, clutch, gas becomes so natural and so unique to each car (even the SAME exact style) that you can not help but feel you develop a deeper understanding of it's capabilities. only then can you truly "learn" the car. i am sad to see (for example) ferrari do away with MT because there is so much communication between you and the car through your left foot. Fast shifts will of course never be as fast than in a DCT but something else is lost.

i'm saying all this and i feel very passionate about the 8 gear AT in the f10. or more appropriately, the 7 gears because unless i've hit cruise control, i'm in sport mode. that's just where the car and i "understand" each other the most! it shifts faster (sometimes i feel like it reads my mind) than i can ever do it on my own, and i don't use the pedals at all.

but i think that the automotive world has sacrificed a ton of feel at the alter of speed of shifting. And i TRULY appreciate that Bayerische still makes the 5er with MT.

i bet the 1 with M has a fantastic MT... i KNOW that the M3 does.
I am pretty excited about the 1 M and plan on test driving it *if* I can find a dealer that has one on the lot and let me take it for a "spirited" test drive.

While it's great to see that BMW and ZF are engineering such fantastic gear boxes, I do share the sentiment about the manual. You and I are minority though.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dunccfp View Post
What I really meant to say is you can't outshift the automatic transmission manually. Manual vs automatic is a whole different story. Even if manual is better I don't care to drive one except for the 10% of the time I'm driving like an animal. It would cost me tickets and gas.

Anyway....let's get back to the subject of the thread.......
Understand your point and agree that we should get back your original point.
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  #15  
Old 02-09-2011, 07:53 AM
97mdrei 97mdrei is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
It is very hard to feel the connection to a car that you have when you are using 3 pedals. even the DCT is not the same, the motion of clutch, gear, clutch, gas becomes so natural and so unique to each car (even the SAME exact style) that you can not help but feel you develop a deeper understanding of it's capabilities. only then can you truly "learn" the car. i am sad to see (for example) ferrari do away with MT because there is so much communication between you and the car through your left foot. Fast shifts will of course never be as fast than in a DCT but something else is lost.

i'm saying all this and i feel very passionate about the 8 gear AT in the f10. or more appropriately, the 7 gears because unless i've hit cruise control, i'm in sport mode. that's just where the car and i "understand" each other the most! it shifts faster (sometimes i feel like it reads my mind) than i can ever do it on my own, and i don't use the pedals at all.

but i think that the automotive world has sacrificed a ton of feel at the alter of speed of shifting. And i TRULY appreciate that Bayerische still makes the 5er with MT.

i bet the 1 with M has a fantastic MT... i KNOW that the M3 does.
Very well put. I agree with Needsdecaf's point (of course I do, our cars are practically twins) that the 8sp AT is silky smooth and tends to be very practical. But, for those who like that 'connected' feel there is no substitute for the MT, IMO.

And that's supposed to offend me? Save the 6th grade insult for people who care.

My Z4M is a Black Sapphire; is that manly enough for you?
[/QUOTE]

This reminds me of a conversation I had several years ago with a former BMW (AG) employee about "manly" M3 colors. To paraphrase, he stated when a guy is sitting at a red light and a Giallo (canary yellow) Ferrari pulls up next to him, the guy is not inclined to insult the Ferrari owner over his choice of colors; especially as it pulls away and sucks his headlights out. I think this can be applied to the M3.
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