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7 Series - E38 (1995 - 2001)

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  #1  
Old 02-07-2011, 11:34 AM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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Mein Auto: '99 740IL, K75RT
99 740iL - Vanos or sticky lifter?

Hi E38 enthusiasts. I have a 99 740 with M62 TU engine. It has a ,,ticking/tapping" noise. I am trying to gather as much information I can for Vanos seal change procedure. If you did something like this in the past any info regarding the procedure, parts or tools will be great appreciate it! I read several posts and threads for the smaller BMW engines but I didn't find the one yet for the big 4.4. I also tried to find the seal for Vanos, but no luck yet. This it will be my project for next summer.

What I know :

Ticking is coming on when engine warm, is on the bank 1, top of the engine or front.
Lifter bleeding procedure did not cure the noise.
Seafoam, or oil additives did not cure the noise.
If oil is new noise level is lower than with oil at 3000 miles. Here oil had 3K.
Engine runs strong with no problems. Has absolutely no gunk or sludge. Noise is not loud sometimes you can't hear it when hood is closed. It just driving me crazy sometimes because I'm not sure yet what it is.

Thank you for your input and for any valuable info!

here is the noise :



Last edited by joyism5; 02-07-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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  #2  
Old 02-08-2011, 12:30 AM
Mersey1 Mersey1 is offline
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Mein Auto: 2000 E38 740i
Sounds like the classic vanos problem on the 4.4 V8. I had the very same noise on my 2000 740i.

There are no vanos seal replacement procedures for for the M62TU. The only way to cure the noise is to change the two vanos units. It will not harm the engine but, although it's an expensive fix, changing the vanos units is well worth it just to get rid of the embarrassing noise. If you decide to go ahead, check the main chain guide rails while you're in there.

Have a read through this right to the end:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...hlight=mersey1

You will also need the timing tools like this:


Last edited by Mersey1; 02-08-2011 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Forgot a bit.
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  #3  
Old 02-08-2011, 07:00 AM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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Hey Mersey1, thanks for reply....

I checked the link and the sound is same ...probably mine is not so loud...yet.

I checked the part to and only cost $165 the whole unit.

Tools ...I'm still hunting them.

I.m still looking for seals only for Vanos units, I will post If I can find them.

Have you did the job yourself?

Have you changed both Vanos? I'm wondering if both are shot since the noise is coming only from bank 1.

Thanks again.
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  #4  
Old 02-08-2011, 10:56 AM
Mersey1 Mersey1 is offline
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Sorry, those links are probably outdated. Try this one. Scroll down a Touch to 'cn90's' post and get the Bentley publishers pdf up. It's for the timing chain replacement but also gives all the info on vanos timing on the M62TU:

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=363120

$165 for the vanos unit! (camshaft adjuster unit with pinion). Are you sure? If so, grab two of 'em right now!!! Part No.1:

http://www.realoem.com/bmw/showparts...65&hg=11&fg=25

'Koch' timing tools:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eB...tchlink:top:en

Yes, but they'll come in very handy in the future, or even hire them out!

Forget about any seals replacement. This is a completely different vanos setup and no seal replacement fix has been found................well not that I'm aware of anyway.

Yes, I did the job myself. The first time, I had a lot of help from my friend Roger. The timing was slightly out with his homemade cam locks, so I then went back in with the proper timing tools (as in the above photo) and found it quite easy once you've seen how it's done. Just looking at the instructions gave me the shivers but, they make it look very hard and complicated when really it's quite a simple procedure. Only downside is, it takes twice as long on your own.

No point in changing just one vanos unit as the other one has done the same mileage and will probably be on the way out too. Would you change just one brake disc?

Anyway, hope this helps.
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  #5  
Old 02-08-2011, 11:35 AM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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Thanks again, yes you were right that I was wrong....I was looking at no 9 in that picture and I searched that part # without looking at the picture.

Thanks for the tool link. I was planing to buy one anyway since my engine start to drink some oil. I might do a valve seal job in the summer an those comes very handy. So they did the job...Are they made in Gemany?

Thanks again for the info!
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  #6  
Old 02-08-2011, 12:03 PM
Mersey1 Mersey1 is offline
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Nah, made in China I think, where else can we get stuff like this so cheap!

Does the job though Dealers will charge a very silly amount of dosh to do this procedure................no thanks.

Valve seal job? That'll be heads off! Now that's something I don't want to do
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  #7  
Old 02-08-2011, 01:30 PM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mersey1 View Post
Nah, made in China I think, where else can we get stuff like this so cheap!

Does the job though Dealers will charge a very silly amount of dosh to do this procedure................no thanks.

Valve seal job? That'll be heads off! Now that's something I don't want to do
If the tools will do the job at least once worth the money....
I've been struggling with the oil consumption since months ago. Blue smoke at start up. Changed the PCVV (rear cover of the intake) 3 times already. Last time (couple days) back I changed everything with OEM except OSV which is behind the timing chain. Still blue smoke at start up. When I was in there I shot a picture. You can see how valve seals are leaking oil. So far I used only Mobil 1 0-30 and 10W-30. Even when I topped of I used Mobil. Terrible oil consumption 4 Qt every 3000 miles! Still blue smoke only at start up. Anyway , now I pretty sure that my valve seals are shot. Now I switched for Mobil1 15W-50 to see what happens.

BTW . I don't recommend Victor Reinz PCVV since mine last around 3 months..
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  #8  
Old 08-02-2011, 05:56 PM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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E38 Tapping / rattling noises from the area of the valve train up to 20 seconds afte

I just want to add the TSB for bleeding the lifters. Credit goes to Corey's Auto who took his time and posted it on another thread around here and was hard to find.


******************

2001 BMW 740i
HYDRAULIC BUCKET TAPPETS (HVA) TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS
2001 BMW 740i
HYDRAULIC BUCKET TAPPETS (HVA) TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS
HYDRAULIC BUCKET TAPPETS (HVA) TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS
TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN


Reference Number(s): 11 01 01, Date of Issue: June, 2001
BMW All with M42, M44, M50, M52, M54, M60, M62, S50, S52 and S62 engines
GROUP 11 -Engine
11 05 90 (3058), Date of Issue: May, 1990

SUBJECT

NOTE:
This Service Information bulletins supersedes S.I. 11 05 90 (3058) dated May,
1990.


Hydraulic Bucket Tappets (HVA) Troubleshooting Tips

SITUATION

Two common reasons for the replacement of hydraulic bucket tappets (HVA) are:

1. Tapping / rattling noise from the valve train area or
2. Binding HVA element
CAUSE

Tapping / rattling noise from the valve train area may have various different causes depending on engine oil level, engine / oil temperature, when the noise is heard (cold start, engine hot), etc.

The following Complaint, Cause and Correction scenarios will assist in troubleshooting for HVA element noise:

SITUATION 1A

Tapping / rattling noises from the area of the valve train up to 20 seconds after a cold start.

CAUSE

These noises can be traced back to the higher viscosity of cold mineral based engine oil.

For a brief moment insufficient oil reaches the high pressure chamber of the HVA element via the high pressure valve after start up. This results in clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe which then causes a tapping / rattling noise.

Influencing factors for this complaint:

Viscosity of engine oil used
Ambient temperature


This condition is not caused by mechanical damage to any engine components and has no damaging effect on the service life of the engine.

CORRECTION

Check that oil viscosity is matched to ambient temperature range at which the vehicle is being operated. Refer to Owners Manual or Operating Fluids Manual (Temperature -Viscosity chart) for further information.

SITUATION 1B

Tapping / rattling noises in the area of the valve train for the first 8 -10 consecutive cold starts.

This condition usually occurs after the engine has been turned off at normal operating temperature and then not
warmed up to full operating temperature during the next series of cold starts.

This operating condition can occur, for example, on new vehicles which have been delivered to your BMW
center (due to loading and unloading from the transport trucks, etc.).

CAUSE

Hot engine oil initially escapes from the oil galley of the HVA elements when the engine is stopped. A small amount of oil also escapes through the gaps between the HVA elements and the HVA housings in the cylinder head.

The oil then contracts while the engine is cooling down and allows air to enter the oil system. During the subsequent cold start, this air can be forced into the HVA elements (causing air pockets) through the build up of engine oil pressure. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping / rattling noises.
This HVA tapping / rattling noise is not dependent on the amount of time the engine is off, but rather on:
The temperature of the engine when it was turned off (operating temperature -hot)
The number of subsequent cold starts without the engine being warmed up to operating temperature.


CORRECTION

Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber of the HVA elements.
Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.

SITUATION 1C

Tapping / rattling noises in the area of the valve train after extreme cornering/lateral acceleration (engine oil
level at or below minimum).

NOTE: These valve train noises will not stop until the engine is run for approximately
10 -15 minutes at an engine speed of at least 2,500 rpm with the oil at the
proper level.
CAUSE

During extreme cornering/lateral acceleration with the engine oil level at or below minimum, air can be drawn in by the oil pump (oil foaming). The air which is drawn into the oil system can enter the HVA elements. The resulting clearance between the HVA elements and the camshaft lobes causes the tapping / rattling noises.

CORRECTION

Run the engine to dissipate (bleed) the air trapped in the high pressure chamber of the HVA elements.
Refer to the HVA bleeding procedure described below.

HVA BLEEDING PROCEDURE

-Check oil level -correct if necessary.

-Let engine idle at operating temperature with the hood open to verify valve train tapping / rattling noise.

-If a tapping / rattling noise can be heard from the valve train, run the engine for 3 minutes without load at approximately 2,500 to 3,000 rpm (bleeding procedure).

-Then with the engine at idle listen for valve train noises again.


NOTE: Only listen for noises when the engine has reached minimum oil pressure, i.e. after a waiting period (at idle) of approximately 15 -30 seconds.

-If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.

-If the tapping / rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be repeated (run the engine for 3 minutes at 2,500 -3,000 rpm).


If necessary, repeat this procedure up to five times.


-If the tapping / rattling noises can still be heard, the bleeding procedure must be performed one final time for approximately 15 minutes.

-If no more noises can be heard, the test procedure is complete. No further action is necessary, the engine is working properly.


If the tapping / rattling noise is still heard after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the following scenarios will assist in further troubleshooting for HVA element noise:

If the noise is coming from all HVA elements an oil supply problem is the most likely cause.

Check engine oil pressure as outlined in the appropriate repair manual, group 11.

If the oil pump pressure (at idle = minimum pressure or regulated = maximum pressure) is below specification a visual inspection of the oil pump and oil pump pick up in the oil pan should be performed with emphasis on the pick up gasket and control valve O ring were applicable. See repair manual group 11, section 11 41 000 for further oil pump information.

NOTE:
A faulty oil pump control valve O ring or oil pump pick up gasket (slight tear in
O ring or gasket) may not always result in a low oil pressure indication when
performing an oil pressure check.


The air drawn in to the lubrication system via a defective gasket or O ring will cause oil foaming and HVA tapping / rattling noises.

If the noise is still coming from an individual HVA element after performing the above HVA Bleeding Procedure the suspected element(s) can be isolated as follows:

-Remove cylinder head cover.


-Turn the engine over (normal direction of rotation) until the camshaft lobe of the HVA element to be
checked is pointing away from the HVA element. (engine valve completely closed)

-Repeatedly apply a force of approximately 10N (2.25 lb.f.) to the HVA element with your thumb or using a folding arm tool BMW special tool number 90 88 6 009 321 (included in the BMW assembly wedge kit P/N 90 88 6 009 310) or a hard wood wedge.
If the HVA element collapses slightly as though it is spring loaded, this is a sign that air is trapped in the high pressure chamber.

-Apply a force of approximately 20 -30N (4.50 -6.75 lb.f.) for 10 -15 seconds to the HVA element using your thumb, folding arm tool or a hard wood wedge.

If clearance between the camshaft lobe and the HVA element is created when the force is applied, this indicates that the check valve incorporated in the HVA element is not closing / sealing properly due to contamination.


-Release the applied force from the HVA element and using a feeler gauge measure the clearance between the HVA element and the camshaft lobe.

If any clearance is detected this indicates that the HVA element is sticking.

-Conduct the checks as described above on all HVA elements.
-Mark any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) for further examination.


Remove HVA elements as outlined in the appropriate repair manual, group 11 and visually inspect. Replace any suspect "soft" HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.


NOTE:
Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed
from. This avoids possible binding due to different wear patterns between the
bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.

SITUATION 2

Binding HVA element.

CAUSE

An HVA element which is binding (element stuck in the extended position) will not allow a valve (intake or exhaust) to seat properly causing valve seat leakage.

This type of HVA failure may not cause a tapping / rattling noise but the customer complaint may be: "engine runs rough during the warm up phase and runs good when warmed up" and/or the "Check Engine" lamp is on.

If the "Check Engine" lamp is illuminated due to a binding HVA element(s) one or more misfire fault codes
may be set in the Engine Control Module (ECM/DME).

NOTE:
Basic troubleshooting should be performed first before checking for a binding
HVA element to eliminate all other possible factors / components which could
set the misfire faults such as low fuel level, a faulty spark plug, etc.


Refer to TECHNICAL SERVICE BULLETIN 12 02 97 for further misfire fault information.

TROUBLESHOOTING TIPS

-If there is a binding HVA element in one or more cylinders as described above a misfire fault can typically be reproduced in the affected cylinder(s) by duplicating the conditions in which the misfire occurred according to the DME/ECM fault code description i.e., at engine temperature = X, engine speed = X, etc.

-A binding HVA element which is causing a misfire in one specific cylinder will not "move" to an other cylinder and will always cause a misfire fault in the affected cylinder.

-Performing the "Smooth-Running" test (found in the DME control unit functions section of DIS) will assist in pin pointing a cylinder with a binding HVA element.

A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a high reading when compared to the other good
cylinders.


-Since a binding HVA element may in some cases be intermittent (engine only runs rough when cold) if a cylinder leak down check is used for troubleshooting this should be performed when the problem exists, for example: compare the cylinder leakage rates to each other with a cold engine to determine the cylinder with the extreme leakage rate.


A cylinder with a binding HVA element will indicate a leakage rate above 15%.


Remove suspected HVA elements as outlined in the appropriate repair manual group 11 and visually inspect.

-A binding HVA element will typically have a high pressure piston (located in the center of the HVA element body) which extends out approximately 3mm further when compared to the other HVA elements removed from the cylinder head.

Replace any binding HVA element(s) and check others for extreme wear (deep grooves, scratches, etc.) which may also need to be replaced.

NOTE:
Always reinstall used HVA elements in the same bore which they were removed
from. This avoids possible binding due to different wear patterns between the
bore in the HVA housing and HVA element.
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Last edited by joyism5; 08-02-2011 at 05:58 PM.
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  #9  
Old 08-04-2011, 10:11 AM
Mark@EAC Mark@EAC is offline
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We rent the M62TU timing tools if you would rather rent than buy them. We also can provide OEM parts for the job.

Tool rental:
http://www.eaceuroparts.com/catalog/product/631
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  #10  
Old 10-24-2012, 10:22 PM
rebrink3 rebrink3 is offline
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Hey thanks guys for all the posting and cross threads! After reading all the ways to fix my lifter noise the "Lifter bleeding procedure" did the job. It was really freaking me out for a couple days....I'll let you know if it stays gone.
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  #11  
Old 03-19-2014, 01:41 AM
DaleS DaleS is offline
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Mein Auto: Toyota
"I.m still looking for seals only for Vanos units, I will post If I can find them."

While researching this issue for a friends car, I found the following:
http://beisansystems.com

Haven't tried it, don't know anything else about it, thought someone
might be interested.
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