Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)

E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #26  
Old 02-13-2011, 12:42 AM
first540i's Avatar
first540i first540i is offline
my first bmw
Location: SGV, CA
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 338
Mein Auto: e39
wow you got sludge in your intake too! thats one dirty engine!

clean everything up or just get a new intake manifold and see what happens
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 02-13-2011, 05:05 AM
franka franka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Lakewood
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,771
Mein Auto: E39 540i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by 540alex View Post
I think this sludge build up can affect the function of the valves. Any thoughts?
All cars will have some slug build up depending on miles, oil type, freq of changes, etc .If it's carbonizing on the valves that could be your cause.

Just clean the intake manifold with a good cleaner like 'brake cleaner'. And Most Definitely use new gaskets, even if the old ones look good. Espcially everywhere. (halFf joking). Especially the oval red intake gaskets for each runner.

Spiritual or sprited driving? An engine needs to be driven hard occasinonally and with Techron in the tank, to keep things like this from happening. But if previous owners beat the hell out of it, its is a 540/6 spd, and didn't maintain oil chenges regulaily and with good oil then it could be just worn.

If you do continue and remove the heads then you can get the valves lapped.

Just some thoughts while I'm waking up this AM.
__________________
Frank
540/6

Dirrezas (4) @ 275/35-18, Eibach springs & bars, Bilstein Sports, Dinan Stage 2, slotted ATEs, Hi-Temp HTP pads, SS Lines, UUC-SS, White/Tan, Bling-free & Stealthy

Last edited by franka; 02-13-2011 at 05:07 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 02-13-2011, 05:41 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
If the lady owner drove the car like that for some years it is very possible that carbon deposits have built up on the piston crowns and, in particular, around the exhaust valves. This could account for the uniformly reduced compression readings.
Lots of people seem to think that low mileage equates to less oil changes. I would say that the opposite is true - more oil changes are required in these circumstances as the oil is degraded by cold running, as I understand it. This could account for low mileage/dirty engines.
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!


Last edited by Quackers; 02-13-2011 at 05:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 02-13-2011, 07:45 AM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by franka View Post
All cars will have some slug build up depending on miles, oil type, freq of changes, etc .If it's carbonizing on the valves that could be your cause.

Just clean the intake manifold with a good cleaner like 'brake cleaner'. And Most Definitely use new gaskets, even if the old ones look good. Espcially everywhere. (halFf joking). Especially the oval red intake gaskets for each runner.

Spiritual or sprited driving? An engine needs to be driven hard occasinonally and with Techron in the tank, to keep things like this from happening. But if previous owners beat the hell out of it, its is a 540/6 spd, and didn't maintain oil chenges regulaily and with good oil then it could be just worn.

If you do continue and remove the heads then you can get the valves lapped.

Just some thoughts while I'm waking up this AM.
Sorry, that meant to be spirited driving Late night typing...

Yes, I'll replace all gaskets and O-rings that I encounter. I've been planning this for a year now and have most parts ready except I did not expect that I'll be removing the heads as well.

I haven't heard of valve lapping before but a simple search turns up many hits and even videos. I'll look into it, thanks!

Definitely the plan is to clean everything, I already started on some parts. Nothing goes back or stays dirty.

While I'm at it, I'll change the oil (Mobil 1 0w40 is already waiting) and the coolant, yesterday I removed the old valley pan cover and started cleaning there as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
If the lady owner drove the car like that for some years it is very possible that carbon deposits have built up on the piston crowns and, in particular, around the exhaust valves. This could account for the uniformly reduced compression readings.
Lots of people seem to think that low mileage equates to less oil changes. I would say that the opposite is true - more oil changes are required in these circumstances as the oil is degraded by cold running, as I understand it. This could account for low mileage/dirty engines.
Today I'll remove the valve covers and hopefully the heads and then the problem will hopefully become apparent.

Thanks guys for the excellent feedback, really appreciate it!
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 02-13-2011, 08:20 AM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
I wonder how effective is Techron in a sense that is it worth going through the trouble of removing the heads or just leave them be and add Techron later? In my case I'm taking apart many things anyway so the heads wouldn't be much extra, the only "scary" thing for me at the moment are the timing chains, but then Bentley and TIS have it all well explained so I should be fine in the end. Just wonder if it's worth it, what do you guys think?
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:57 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
If it is valve seating that is causing the low compression, it seems likely to me that in view of how the car may have been driven and assuming ! that this condition has existed for some time, it seems probable to me that the actual valves and seats could be pitted and would need lapping in (re-seating). It is undoubtedly a major step (not to mention the added expense) to remove the heads. Unfortunately, I cannot say how efficient Techron is likely to be in these circumstances.
But, if you decide to remove the heads, you will at least be able to see if there is any noticeable bore wear. You could also replace the rear water hoses, ccv and valley pan gasket more easily :-)
See if others can offer any advice regarding Techron's abilities.
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!


Last edited by Quackers; 02-13-2011 at 09:58 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 02-13-2011, 11:35 AM
franka franka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Lakewood
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,771
Mein Auto: E39 540i Sport
If the seats are possibly pitted then Techron would not cure that. Techtron would have been a good solution to try before you removed anything.

But at this point, AND assuming you are comfortable with your skills and have a Bentley, I would proceed to remove the heads. Then you will know everything. Even the cyl wear as Quackers noted. Then you can have the valves lapped too and they will be like new. Maybe even go to new valve guides while right there (in the head with the valves).
__________________
Frank
540/6

Dirrezas (4) @ 275/35-18, Eibach springs & bars, Bilstein Sports, Dinan Stage 2, slotted ATEs, Hi-Temp HTP pads, SS Lines, UUC-SS, White/Tan, Bling-free & Stealthy
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 02-13-2011, 03:25 PM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
You might find a noticeable increase in performance when everything's done :-)
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!

Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 02-13-2011, 08:21 PM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Out of curiosity, why do you think something is wrong? Low compression numbers are not, in and of themselves, a problem. Especially when they are so even, and they don't change so dramatically when you add a little oil.

Listen, I'd be the first one to try to raise my compression numbers as well. My point is simply that low compression numbers can lead you to go to extreme lengths to solve something that isn't an actual problem.
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 02-13-2011, 11:08 PM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
I've decided to go ahead with the heads, unfortunately today I didn't have enough time to actually do it, but I did manage to clean the top part of the engine and some other parts and removed the valve covers. Here's what it looks like now:



And here are the valve covers getting ready to be shipped for cleaning/powder coating:



I thought that it actually looks pretty good on the inside. Do you guys see anything worth attention?
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 02-13-2011, 11:25 PM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeFromPA View Post
Out of curiosity, why do you think something is wrong? Low compression numbers are not, in and of themselves, a problem. Especially when they are so even, and they don't change so dramatically when you add a little oil.

Listen, I'd be the first one to try to raise my compression numbers as well. My point is simply that low compression numbers can lead you to go to extreme lengths to solve something that isn't an actual problem.
In my eyes low compression certainly means that there is a problem. And the fact that oil does not change the numbers much likely points to a problem with valves.

Now that I took the intake off I can see buildup inside the intake ports. All of this and the fact that I'm taking the top of the engine apart anyway for oil/coolant gasket replacement I'm only a step away from taking the heads off and getting to the root of the problem.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 02-14-2011, 03:57 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Forgive me if I've missed something, but your next test should certainly be a leakdown test to determine where the pressure is going and to what extent.

For example: if you've got pretty even low pressure across all cylinders but little leakage (i.e. a standard amount, such as 10-20% loss), then it's likely your timing is off.

By all means, get the valves clean and so forth. Heck, i encourage a regular "italian tune-up"

My point is simply that people can get really freaked out over low compression numbers with nothing actually wrong, go through all sorts of steps to improve the results and get very little without actually ensuring there is a problem somewhere (i.e. DIYers at altitude who do compression tests)

Edited to correct how I worded one phrase
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles

Last edited by JoeFromPA; 02-14-2011 at 04:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 02-14-2011, 05:15 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
540alex, I have spoken to my brother (a BMW trained mechanic who is the knower of all things BMW, in my world :-) ) and he tells me that with readings of 130ish across all cylinders, he would not be at all concerned. If one or two cylinders were considerably higher or lower, or all the readings were below 100, he would be thinking about taking a look. He tells me that compression test results can be skewed by things like temperature and the efficiency of the starter motor, amongst other things. He does not suspect any kind of valve deterioration or seating problems. A build-up of carbon could be a possible cause and would recommend a product like Fortes (probably similar to Techron in the States) to be added to the fuel. Let the additive get mixed up in the tank and running through the system, then stick it in second gear and hold it there at high revs for a while :-) You may see some smoke emitted as carbon deposits are burnt off. It seems that Techron and the like, is quite efficient at burning away carbon deposits from the top end of engines if the revs are high enough.
BTW, nice cleaning job :-)

Sorry for the conflicting advice, but it is an option which could be considered. It's a lot less work too!
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!


Last edited by Quackers; 02-14-2011 at 05:22 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 02-14-2011, 06:18 AM
franka franka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Lakewood
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,771
Mein Auto: E39 540i Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
540alex, I have spoken to my brother (a BMW trained mechanic who is the knower of all things BMW, in my world :-) ) and he tells me that with readings of 130ish across all cylinders, he would not be at all concerned. If one or two cylinders were considerably higher or lower, or all the readings were below 100, he would be thinking about taking a look. He tells me that compression test results can be skewed by things like temperature and the efficiency of the starter motor, amongst other things. He does not suspect any kind of valve deterioration or seating problems. A build-up of carbon could be a possible cause and would recommend a product like Fortes (probably similar to Techron in the States) to be added to the fuel. Let the additive get mixed up in the tank and running through the system, then stick it in second gear and hold it there at high revs for a while :-) You may see some smoke emitted as carbon deposits are burnt off. It seems that Techron and the like, is quite efficient at burning away carbon deposits from the top end of engines if the revs are high enough.
BTW, nice cleaning job :-)

Sorry for the conflicting advice, but it is an option which could be considered. It's a lot less work too!

I think that is good advice. What number is high revs, and hold it there for how long?

Leakdown is also good advice.

Another variable is oil viscosity.
__________________
Frank
540/6

Dirrezas (4) @ 275/35-18, Eibach springs & bars, Bilstein Sports, Dinan Stage 2, slotted ATEs, Hi-Temp HTP pads, SS Lines, UUC-SS, White/Tan, Bling-free & Stealthy
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 02-14-2011, 08:38 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Alex,

I agree with quackers and that was essentially my point: your compression numbers are even and you don't have any physical symptoms of a problem, so who knows if you would spend tons of time tracking down something that doesn't exist. You COULD have something like your timing is off a slight amount, but that should be caught with a leakdown test if pressure loss if above acceptable values and even loss of pressure across each cylinder while the compression values are also even.

Nonetheless, what Quackers described is the "italian tune-up" i mentioned , though I recommend a slight variation:

1. Put a concentrated top-end engine cleaner in your fuel (i.e. techron, redline SL-1 I believe, etc.). I like only 1/2 - 3/4 tank, as it leaves it the most concentrated while still following directions about minimum total gallons in the fuel system.

2. Change your oil to a high mileage 10w40 formula (non-synthetic). These are usually ~$3 a quart and have alot of cleaners in them for high mileage engines.

3. Warm your car up for 15-20 minutes then drive around as much as possible for 15-20 minutes in the top 80% of your RPM range. 5000 rpms should do it. If you can cruise on the highway for 20 minutes straight at that engine speed, great. Try to use as much fuel as possible during this process. (another reason why I like the 1/2 tank method)

4. Come home change your spark plugs (in case they got fouled up during the cleaning process....leave em in if they are otherwise very new), oil, and fill your tank with normal gas.

That's it. "italian tune-up" style.

If you would do that and try out your compression again, I'd be curious to see if you go up by ~5%...though that could simply be atmospheric changes too. Compression numbers are like a dyno. It's not about how your car compares to other cars, it's about how it compares to its own baseline AND if there's something obviously wrong during the process.
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 02-14-2011, 08:53 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
The engine must be fully warmed up before doing it!
"High revs" is almost bouncing off the rev limiter and hold it there for about a mile or so, then repeat as required. An alternative is to get to about 70 mph (not sure about your speed limit) and drop it into a gear that gets the revs way up there and just sit there for a few miles. Basically what you need to do is get the maximum amount of gases going through the engine with the engine working hard, once it's good and hot. This can loosen the carbon deposits and blow them away.

A leak down test is a good idea, but you need a compressor and bits to do it.
Maybe a before and after leakdown/compression test could be done, to see if any improvement is found.
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!

Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 02-14-2011, 08:56 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
Lol, The Italian Job :-)
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!

Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 02-14-2011, 09:28 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Heheh. It's completely fine for the engine as long as it's got fresh, clean oil in it and it was properly warmed up. Maintaining a very high engine speed is not really a "high load" stress on the engine. Much harder on it is lugging the engine when it's cold and not getting good lubrication, bouncing it off the fuel cutoff, or downshifting significantly without rev-matching. Compared to those activities, this is just an excuse to breathe freely

I've personally done this on 3 cars in various states. I can't say I got any distinct satisfaction out of it, but it didn't harm anything either. None of the cars experienced any visible smoke at any time coming out the rear. The only car i had expected a difference in was a '95 volvo 850 turbo who, when I wiped the dipstick on a rag, left a layer of fine grit on the rag. Looked like the engine had inhaled a bunch of oak leaves and chewed them up to a coarse grit. I went out of my way to clean that engine out; it got clean, but it never felt any different. Just gave me peace 'o mind
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 02-14-2011, 09:43 AM
edjack edjack is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: San Jose, CA
 
Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 8,843
Mein Auto: '97 540i 6 speed
I wouln't worry about the sludge in the intake manifold; that's probably due to the operating history of the car. The engine DOES injest crankcase fumes by design.

Historically, evenly low compression like yours points to worn or gummed-up rings (don't seal as well). Leaky valves cause a considerably larger spread in compression pressure due to the more erratic valve sealing.

Before opening up the engine, I'd treat it with Rislone for a couple of oil changes, and during that time, drive the snot out of it.
__________________


Ed in San Jose '97 540i 6 speed aspensilber over aubergine leather. Build date 3/97. Golden Gate Chapter BMW CCA Nr 62319.
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 02-14-2011, 10:05 AM
JoeFromPA JoeFromPA is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: West Chester, PA
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,734
Mein Auto: 01 M5, 08 535xit
Ed,

Love that picture of your house (assuming) in the background. Looks like a lovely ranch. My wife and I are starting to dream of building are own ranch (with an attached 3-4 car garage!)
__________________
01 m5 - 127k miles 11/2013....08 535xit - 94k miles
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 02-14-2011, 10:21 AM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
Thanks everyone for the great responses!

I did not do a leak down test since I don't have the tools for it. At this point it's a bit late, but assuming I get the tools, would the test be way off on the cold engine? I could add a bit of oil from the intake valves to lube them as well.

It sounds like you guys would not proceed with the head removal at this point and hope that the fuel/oil additives help with the compression. It seems to me either way there is some "risk" involved. If I don't remove the heads and the additives don't change much, I think I will regret that I did not physically checked/cleaned/reseated the valves (being so close to them). On the other hand there's certainly a lot more work involved if I do proceed with the removal, plus (or minus ) I don't have the special tools for the timing adjustment (yet).

I think next I may get the compressor and the gauge and do the leak down anyway and examine in close detail if there are any oil leaks from the head gasket as I thought I saw earlier. If there is a leak, I think it's best to replace the gasket now, what do you think?

Just thinking of my options on how to proceed...

Last edited by Flug540; 02-14-2011 at 10:54 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 02-14-2011, 11:11 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
A leak down test would still be a good option. Iwouldn't use any oil in that test though. As for temperature, I just assumed that the test would be done with a cold engine - maybe I'm wrong there.
I would be surprised if you find any indications of oil leaking from the head gasket - much more likely to be some spillage or spray, I would say.
I understand your reservations about not removing the heads and having a look, but, in all honesty, I would try anything that could help me to avoid taking that step. It really is a major step to take, and I personally would rather leave any head gasket undisturbed, if at all possible. I understand that you think you're half way there already, but in actual fact you are not.
If you believe that the head gasket is leaking in some way then you would have no choice but to remove the heads - but I would check very carefully first :-)
Good luck in your decision.
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!

Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 02-14-2011, 05:07 PM
franka franka is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Lakewood
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 8,771
Mein Auto: E39 540i Sport
I think you've gotten some great advice above and would definitely do a leak down test. And if good I would not remove the heads. I would put it back together and do the chem and rev tunes. Maybe a couple of different ones with different chems. Never heard it called Italian tune, but I like it.

I've always held the belief of revving the motor for its own health.
__________________
Frank
540/6

Dirrezas (4) @ 275/35-18, Eibach springs & bars, Bilstein Sports, Dinan Stage 2, slotted ATEs, Hi-Temp HTP pads, SS Lines, UUC-SS, White/Tan, Bling-free & Stealthy

Last edited by franka; 02-14-2011 at 05:08 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 02-15-2011, 04:16 AM
Quackers's Avatar
Quackers Quackers is offline
Learning all the time
Location: Manchester, UK
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Posts: 545
Mein Auto: 540i
As another check (although the leak down test would confirm any problem) can you check the valve timing marks? I've never checked my own valve timing on a v8, so am unsure as to what state of undress the engine has to be in before the marks can be seen. (Although I don't suspect a problem).
__________________
I maybe paranoid but that doesn't mean they're not after me!

Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 02-15-2011, 08:55 AM
Flug540's Avatar
Flug540 Flug540 is online now
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Hayward, CA
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 531
Mein Auto: 1998 BMW 540i 6-spd
Quote:
Originally Posted by Quackers View Post
As another check (although the leak down test would confirm any problem) can you check the valve timing marks? I've never checked my own valve timing on a v8, so am unsure as to what state of undress the engine has to be in before the marks can be seen. (Although I don't suspect a problem).
Yes, thanks! I was going to check on that as well, hopefully today or tomorrow I'll be equipped to do the leak down test and will check timing as well. It seems I need to remove the fan to get access to the crankshaft center bolt.

I'll update as soon as I have something.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:36 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms