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X5 E70 (2007 - 2013)
E70 BMW X5 produced between 2007 and 2013. Discuss the E70 X5 with other BMW owners here.

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  #1  
Old 02-13-2011, 07:38 AM
dave70 dave70 is offline
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Has anyone driven the new VW touareg Hybrid?

It has the Audi supercharged V6 used in the S4 + the battery with 47hp for 380 HP and 428lbs of torque. The interior is also quite nice. I am sure it does not handle as well as the X5 but interested if anyone has test driven or owns one. Other option is the Cayenne, which handles as well as, if not better than the X5, but for about 20k more than the VW. Thanks
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  #2  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:06 AM
twhit1 twhit1 is offline
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Yes. I had the chance to drive the Hybrid last year in China (VW event). Fit and finish, design and materials are all significantly improved in the new Touareg. Handling is not as crisp as a BMW/Porsche though.

However, I do not understand the hybrid at all (especially for the price). The TDI is 13k less yet gets better gas mileage than the hybrid (4mpg better on the highway, same in the city). Not to mention a diesel engine will last a lot longer than a battery pack.

My suggestion is to forget the hybrid all together (Porsche or VW). If you want fuel economy, go with the Touareg TDI. If you want power and handling, go with the Cayenne S. The new V8 w/ 8 speed transmission still gets an impressive 22mpg highway. Not bad.
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  #3  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:33 AM
kck7 kck7 is offline
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Agree. I drove the Cayenne hybrid, arguably very similar. Besides the extra weight and a lot of extra $$, I did not care for the whole stop-start thing. I can't imagine this would not cause some sort of problem down the road, but maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

IMO the whole hybrid thing is way over-hyped. I'm all for saving the planet etc but what about those heavy metals, the non-recyclability (has this been resolved?), etc? What does the net-net analysis - if such a thing exists - show?
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  #4  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:40 AM
dave70 dave70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twhit1 View Post
Yes. I had the chance to drive the Hybrid last year in China (VW event). Fit and finish, design and materials are all significantly improved in the new Touareg. Handling is not as crisp as a BMW/Porsche though.

However, I do not understand the hybrid at all (especially for the price). The TDI is 13k less yet gets better gas mileage than the hybrid (4mpg better on the highway, same in the city). Not to mention a diesel engine will last a lot longer than a battery pack.

My suggestion is to forget the hybrid all together (Porsche or VW). If you want fuel economy, go with the Touareg TDI. If you want power and handling, go with the Cayenne S. The new V8 w/ 8 speed transmission still gets an impressive 22mpg highway. Not bad.
I understand its a "mild hybrid". Its much quicker than the diesel, at least in terms of straight line performance. Perhaps its not that noticeable because of the diesel's similar torque. One dealer offered the hybrid to me at invoice because they can't move them and another (10 miles away) told me they would not move off sticker because they are so hard to find.
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  #5  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:52 AM
twhit1 twhit1 is offline
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If its what you want, go for it. I certainly am not going to get in the way. I just presented what I felt is a fair analysis of the two technologies.

When I bought my 2011 X5 35d, I was comtemplating waiting for the new Touaregs to hit our shores. However, I decided against it for one main reason (both cars I feel are great). The VW is a $55-$65k dollar car, but you will be treated like a Jetta owner. I knew this was going to bother me over the life of ownership. In my area, BMW service is much better than VW. I get a BMW loaner, don't get hassled with service costs, facilities are nicer, etc. Buying the VW would have been similar to buying the most expensive house in the neigborhood.

My two cents. I love the Touareg, but the price point for the brand is extreme (especially after they raised it $4k for this model year). What you spend on a Touareg Hybrid, you could almost get into a Cayenne S for.....
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  #6  
Old 02-13-2011, 09:59 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Next year the T-egg (and probably Audi) is supposed to have the 4.0 TDI engine which will give it comprable performance to the X5 35d. The current VW TDI is a bit underpowered, but can be "tweaked" if you are not afraid of warranty issues. The 4.0 OTOH is good right out of the box. One of the more interesting hybrids is coming from (of all places) Hyundai. They are using a new system that will allow battery operation up to 62 mph before the engine cuts in. They have it now in the new Sonata. It uses a totally different battery than the current hybrids. I prefer diesels to hybrids just because there is way too much to go wrong with complicated hybrid systems and diesels are great!

Last edited by UncleJ; 02-13-2011 at 10:01 AM.
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  #7  
Old 02-13-2011, 10:00 AM
dave70 dave70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by twhit1 View Post
If its what you want, go for it. I certainly am not going to get in the way. I just presented what I felt is a fair analysis of the two technologies.

When I bought my 2011 X5 35d, I was comtemplating waiting for the new Touaregs to hit our shores. However, I decided against it for one main reason (both cars I feel are great). The VW is a $55-$65k dollar car, but you will be treated like a Jetta owner. I knew this was going to bother me over the life of ownership. In my area, BMW service is much better than VW. I get a BMW loaner, don't get hassled with service costs, facilities are nicer, etc. Buying the VW would have been similar to buying the most expensive house in the neigborhood.

My two cents. I love the Touareg, but the price point for the brand is extreme (especially after they raised it $4k for this model year). What you spend on a Touareg Hybrid, you could almost get into a Cayenne S for.....
Very good points. I have never owned a VW. We had an 05 Cayenne S and I know that the new Cayenne is a big improvement with the weight reduction, 8 speed and nicer interior. I have test driven one. We have not owned anything except MBs and BMWs for the past 4 years. I never thought about service etc..at VW.

We will probably opt for an X5 or Cay S..wife suggested a VW to avoid continued snob factor.
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  #8  
Old 02-13-2011, 10:07 AM
twhit1 twhit1 is offline
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Yes. That is the one big advantage of the Touareg. It is "stealth" luxury. A great car if you need to keep a lower profile at work, etc. People will see the VW badge and won't think much of it (even though its as nice or nicer than BMW, MB, etc).

The other advantage of the Touareg was it was a true off-road truck with air suspension, high/low 4x4 capabilities. However, that advantage is now gone as they have made it a cross over without high/low capabilities.

If I had to do everything over again, I would probably go for the Cayenne. The fit and finish on that car is amazing. It also feels like its built like a safe. Porsche did an extremely good job remaking that car.
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  #9  
Old 02-13-2011, 12:31 PM
dave70 dave70 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kck7 View Post
Agree. I drove the Cayenne hybrid, arguably very similar. Besides the extra weight and a lot of extra $$, I did not care for the whole stop-start thing. I can't imagine this would not cause some sort of problem down the road, but maybe I'm just old-fashioned.

IMO the whole hybrid thing is way over-hyped. I'm all for saving the planet etc but what about those heavy metals, the non-recyclability (has this been resolved?), etc? What does the net-net analysis - if such a thing exists - show?
I drove the Cayenne S and it did the same thing...engine turned off when you came to a stop. I agree, more env damage is caused strip mining for raw materials, when you take into account the violence/death that occurs in Africa over this stuff, its not even close...its all marketing.
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  #10  
Old 02-13-2011, 04:52 PM
e90diesel e90diesel is offline
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The 2011 Touareg TDI has some very nice standard features, 8 speed trans, 100k power train warranty, nav, etal. At the end of the day it seems to be overpriced by about 5-6k. Because it is a VW, it will depreciate much faster than a x5.

I would think that by this summer VW will be offering some incentives to move to a lower price point. If and when I'll take a serious look.
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  #11  
Old 02-13-2011, 06:43 PM
kck7 kck7 is offline
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I also drove the Touareg V6. Not quite as powerful-feeling as my X5D. Also the brakes were a bit mushy. I've never owned a BMW before this (and only drove one many years ago) and had come to believe that all brakes are either grabby or mushy. Nice surprise to feel absolutely perfect braking here.

The nav on the Touareg is nice, as is the interior. Got BMW beat there but those are what I call 'accessories' to the driving experience. Get the engine, transmission, chassis, suspension, steering and brakes right first, then dazzle us with the other stuff. As you can guess, BMW checks all those boxes above if not every one of the others. In comparison, the Lexus RX I tried was a joke, with an underpowered engine, the worst sort of mushy suspension, surprising amount of road noise, and just so-so everything else. I can't understand how they can call it a luxury vehicle... just on the basis of soft leather, wood trim and some electronics? Hyundai has all that now in their Sonata.

I'm not fully following the stealth luxury thing. I understand the meaning of course, just wondering why it would have value to somebody. I mean, if you want it to look like you spent less, then you should.... spend less.

Last edited by kck7; 02-13-2011 at 06:48 PM.
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  #12  
Old 02-13-2011, 07:41 PM
pfbz pfbz is offline
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I've owned V8 Touareg for the past five years and have loved it. Best SUV I've ever owned, and I've owned quite a few.

But I'm replacing it with an X5, here's why:
  • Warranty. BMW 48 months, VW 36 months. With either the X5, Touareg, Cayenne, or pretty much any luxury SUV these days, not having it covered by warranty is nuts. Simple glitches end up costing thousands... Even the best extended warranties aren't really the same as the factory warranty.
  • Service. I'm tired of dealing with VW service departments, advisors and technicians. Loaner cars are like pulling teeth, and I don't want to be in a crappy rental car or VW golf when I have a loaner. Will BMW be any better? Time will tell.
  • Engines. Every current engine offering in the X5 is great. The 50i obviously is rockin, the 35i will still do 0-60 in 6.2, smoking fast, and most folks really love the 35d as well. On the VW side, you have an underpowered normally aspirated V6, and underpowered diesel (though they did at least put the 8-speed with the diesel), and the hybrid. The Supercharged V6 that is "supplemented" by the electric motor in the Touareg is really what they need for a base gas engine. I have no interest in the extra battery weight and think most, if not all, hybrids are nothing more than eco-status symbols, offering no real positive impact on the environment.
  • Price. When you factor in the frequent BMW factory cash offerings (like $2,500 holiday cash, $3,500 eco credit, $1,000 BMW CCA credit), super attractive interest rates, dealers who are happy to take a few hundred over invoice, and the extra cost for another 12 months of warranty and service, and the VW ends up being more than a comparable X5. Which is nuts.
  • Off-Road Capability. What the T1 and T2 Touaregs previously had was real off-road ability. Adjustable height air suspensions, capability for pretty large off road tires, two-speed transfer case, locking center and rear differentials, available real skid plates, etc. All gone for 2011 (in our market). VW clearly targeted the X5 in their Touareg makeover... A soft-roader, lighter, more luxury. But forgot the performance!

For VW to regain my business, I would need:
  • Performance engine. The euro V8 diesel or a 320+ hp forced induction gas engine would work.
  • Match the warranty and service of the X5.
  • Price it aggressively. I need to save $4-$8K over a BMW, all other things equal, to tempt be back.

Not going to happen... but that's my list anyway!
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  #13  
Old 02-13-2011, 11:29 PM
Lunablue Lunablue is offline
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And VW does electronics well? NOT. They have quite a history of electrical problems. Not sure I'd feel 100% comfortable owning a VW hybrid.
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  #14  
Old 02-14-2011, 07:36 AM
kck7 kck7 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfbz View Post
I've owned V8 Touareg for the past five years and have loved it. Best SUV I've ever owned, and I've owned quite a few.

But I'm replacing it with an X5, here's why:
  • Warranty. BMW 48 months, VW 36 months. With either the X5, Touareg, Cayenne, or pretty much any luxury SUV these days, not having it covered by warranty is nuts. Simple glitches end up costing thousands... Even the best extended warranties aren't really the same as the factory warranty.
  • Service. I'm tired of dealing with VW service departments, advisors and technicians. Loaner cars are like pulling teeth, and I don't want to be in a crappy rental car or VW golf when I have a loaner. Will BMW be any better? Time will tell.
  • Engines. Every current engine offering in the X5 is great. The 50i obviously is rockin, the 35i will still do 0-60 in 6.2, smoking fast, and most folks really love the 35d as well. On the VW side, you have an underpowered normally aspirated V6, and underpowered diesel (though they did at least put the 8-speed with the diesel), and the hybrid. The Supercharged V6 that is "supplemented" by the electric motor in the Touareg is really what they need for a base gas engine. I have no interest in the extra battery weight and think most, if not all, hybrids are nothing more than eco-status symbols, offering no real positive impact on the environment.
  • Price. When you factor in the frequent BMW factory cash offerings (like $2,500 holiday cash, $3,500 eco credit, $1,000 BMW CCA credit), super attractive interest rates, dealers who are happy to take a few hundred over invoice, and the extra cost for another 12 months of warranty and service, and the VW ends up being more than a comparable X5. Which is nuts.
  • Off-Road Capability. What the T1 and T2 Touaregs previously had was real off-road ability. Adjustable height air suspensions, capability for pretty large off road tires, two-speed transfer case, locking center and rear differentials, available real skid plates, etc. All gone for 2011 (in our market). VW clearly targeted the X5 in their Touareg makeover... A soft-roader, lighter, more luxury. But forgot the performance!

For VW to regain my business, I would need:
  • Performance engine. The euro V8 diesel or a 320+ hp forced induction gas engine would work.
  • Match the warranty and service of the X5.
  • Price it aggressively. I need to save $4-$8K over a BMW, all other things equal, to tempt be back.

Not going to happen... but that's my list anyway!
Extremely well said. Pretty much all of this went through my mind when shopping the T, except I hadn't owned any before, but had read of how well-liked they were.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunablue View Post
And VW does electronics well? NOT. They have quite a history of electrical problems. Not sure I'd feel 100% comfortable owning a VW hybrid.
Didn't know that... I was referring to the nav interface.
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  #15  
Old 02-20-2011, 09:53 AM
RedDobie RedDobie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pfbz View Post
I've owned V8 Touareg for the past five years and have loved it. Best SUV I've ever owned, and I've owned quite a few.

But I'm replacing it with an X5, here's why:
  • Warranty. BMW 48 months, VW 36 months. With either the X5, Touareg, Cayenne, or pretty much any luxury SUV these days, not having it covered by warranty is nuts. Simple glitches end up costing thousands... Even the best extended warranties aren't really the same as the factory warranty.
  • Service. I'm tired of dealing with VW service departments, advisors and technicians. Loaner cars are like pulling teeth, and I don't want to be in a crappy rental car or VW golf when I have a loaner. Will BMW be any better? Time will tell.
  • Engines. Every current engine offering in the X5 is great. The 50i obviously is rockin, the 35i will still do 0-60 in 6.2, smoking fast, and most folks really love the 35d as well. On the VW side, you have an underpowered normally aspirated V6, and underpowered diesel (though they did at least put the 8-speed with the diesel), and the hybrid. The Supercharged V6 that is "supplemented" by the electric motor in the Touareg is really what they need for a base gas engine. I have no interest in the extra battery weight and think most, if not all, hybrids are nothing more than eco-status symbols, offering no real positive impact on the environment.
  • Price. When you factor in the frequent BMW factory cash offerings (like $2,500 holiday cash, $3,500 eco credit, $1,000 BMW CCA credit), super attractive interest rates, dealers who are happy to take a few hundred over invoice, and the extra cost for another 12 months of warranty and service, and the VW ends up being more than a comparable X5. Which is nuts.
  • Off-Road Capability. What the T1 and T2 Touaregs previously had was real off-road ability. Adjustable height air suspensions, capability for pretty large off road tires, two-speed transfer case, locking center and rear differentials, available real skid plates, etc. All gone for 2011 (in our market). VW clearly targeted the X5 in their Touareg makeover... A soft-roader, lighter, more luxury. But forgot the performance!

For VW to regain my business, I would need:
  • Performance engine. The euro V8 diesel or a 320+ hp forced induction gas engine would work.
  • Match the warranty and service of the X5.
  • Price it aggressively. I need to save $4-$8K over a BMW, all other things equal, to tempt be back.

Not going to happen... but that's my list anyway!
I'm coming off owning 2 V8 touregs in a row (leases). Pretty much the same reasons as above. Once they decontented the the touregs (while increasing the prices) it was a no-deal to me. I'd add a couple of more personal points:
  • Dealers not willing to work on prices, i had a feeling they were doing ME a favor by selling
  • Laugh if you want, but 'flapping' sunshade made from thin material mounted on a roll was a big turn off in a 60K vehicle
  • They took out one rotary switch from the console and just left a useless small round hole in there
  • First year technology - i prefer not to be on the 'bleeding edge'
I lloved my Touregs - they were great and pretty much trouble free. But i feel VW ihas basically killed the brand with the current packaging.
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Old 02-20-2011, 12:51 PM
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AzNMpower32 AzNMpower32 is offline
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I'm not sure what's the point of the Touareg Hybrid when there's a diesel option that's much cheaper and more economical. I think one would have to be pretty ignorant about cars to opt for the hybrid.

I was interviewing at the VW HQ the other day and sat in the Touareg Hybrid they had in the showroom display in the reception area. It is a nice interior but I was a bit perplexed at the lack of headroom. Admittedly I didn't fiddle around with the seats too much but it felt kind of odd.
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Old 02-20-2011, 02:06 PM
dave70 dave70 is offline
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Originally Posted by AzNMpower32 View Post
I'm not sure what's the point of the Touareg Hybrid when there's a diesel option that's much cheaper and more economical. I think one would have to be pretty ignorant about cars to opt for the hybrid.

I was interviewing at the VW HQ the other day and sat in the Touareg Hybrid they had in the showroom display in the reception area. It is a nice interior but I was a bit perplexed at the lack of headroom. Admittedly I didn't fiddle around with the seats too much but it felt kind of odd.
Tthe simple answer is performance. If you load up the diesel with all the Hybrid options you are looking at 59k. Dealers are looking to move the hybrids so you can get them at invoice. The hybrid has the great Audi S4 engine and does 0-60 in 6.2 vs. 7.9 for the diesel with more torque. However, I long ago decided the Cayenne S is a better option.
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Old 02-20-2011, 05:53 PM
ANZAC_1915 ANZAC_1915 is offline
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I do not understand the current Touareg engine lineup. What happened to the V8?
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:04 PM
kmorgan_260 kmorgan_260 is offline
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I agree that the diesel is a better option than the hybrid, but if you are buying a vehicle with an eye toward performance I really don't understand the diesel either. I must disclose that I own an F250 diesel and for a workhorse it is perfect but a performance vehicle it is not.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:09 PM
twhit1 twhit1 is offline
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Originally Posted by ANZAC_1915 View Post
I do not understand the current Touareg engine lineup. What happened to the V8?
You can thank increasing CAFE requirements for the V8 deletion. VW (and all others) needs to meet ever increasing fuel efficiency standards. That = no more V8 for the Touareg. (Not to mention it wasn't a great engine from a power/fuel efficiency standpoint anyhow.)
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:17 PM
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AzNMpower32 AzNMpower32 is offline
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Originally Posted by kmorgan_260 View Post
I agree that the diesel is a better option than the hybrid, but if you are buying a vehicle with an eye toward performance I really don't understand the diesel either. I must disclose that I own an F250 diesel and for a workhorse it is perfect but a performance vehicle it is not.
Have you driven the BMW diesel? Unlike many other automakers' diesels, the engine doesn't really completely give up after 3500rpm. It'll rev cleanly and smoothly to the 5000rpm redline, although it's not the quickest way to accelerate.
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Old 02-20-2011, 06:25 PM
kmorgan_260 kmorgan_260 is offline
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I wanted to drive a 335d when I was shopping for my 335 but couldn't find one. Seems they are still a rare breed in the USA. I have read the reviews and watched the Top Gear tests and do find them impressive. I hear Audi and VW make good diesels also. To be fair the newer US diesels are not bad either, but I will stick with gasoline cars until the prices get a little bit higher.
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