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BMW Diesel Owners / Enthusiasts
Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #26  
Old 03-11-2011, 06:14 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by taibanl View Post
If so please add your name/mileage of the occurence/diagnoisis/corrective action/and whether it was covered to this list (and any other details). I am planning on drafting a letter to BMW NA

Edit: unable to add poll.

PLEASE REMAIN ON TOPIC
Name: Aaron Rouse
Mileage: Somewhere around 12,300, had it taken care of at 12,837. So somewhere around 6k miles past the first oil change. I know that my tanks were completely drained and topped off with my first oil change because I was there for that one.
Correct action: Dealer claimed they found nothing wrong and that it just sometimes happens. It was covered in the sense that it was time for my second yearly oil change even though the car was far from the mileage based oil change. Dealer said the fluid is only covered by BMW during an oil change.
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  #27  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:01 AM
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autoJeff autoJeff is offline
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Late to the party...Taibanl PM'd me in March to respond in this thread but I've been away from the forums for a while...

I've twice run out of DEF prior to CBS oil change. I'd have to go through my records for mileage etc., but IIRC both times I was a couple months prior to a CBS oil change. I really was low on DEF. My issue was not inability to transfer fluid from passive tank to active tank.

Both times my dealer filled the tanks at no charge to me. The dealer ate the cost as an optional service to the customer; BMWNA doesn't pay for this. My dealer understood even before the SIB that a drain-n-refill is not required in this situation. I think my dealer saw it as a training opportunity, which can be worth more than a few dollars for the fluid. There were three mechanics around my car participating or helping with the refill. I believe the early adopters who were quoted a couple hundred dollars by their dealer for a top off were told that because at the time their dealer did not understand this and was looking to charge for a drain-n-refill.

I've read that DEF consumption is primarily a function of fuel economy. As fuel consumption increases so does DEF consumption (I think linearly). My car is a daily driver + family road trip vehicle. My typical mileage is 28-31 mpg around town with a long enough commute for the coolant temp to get to normal operating range. I assume oil temp too but I have no way to see the oil temp. On the occasional road trip I will average 36-40 mpg from driveway to driveway. In addition, my car has been to the track where I'll average below 15 mpg.

I've also read that DEF consumption rate is affected by a correction factor. The computer predicts the NOx level at a sensor downstream of the SCR catalytic converter. The difference between predicted and measured value drives the correction factor. Both short term and long term adaptation occur. This same system is the mechanism by which improper or ineffective DEF fluid is detected (i.e., don't "piss in the tank" as some on this forum like to joke.)

I got the impression that fuel quality can affect the correction factor. I wonder if diesel fuel in my region is not as high quality as in other regions, and if that's true then maybe it contributes to an increased DEF consumption rate. The next time my car is at the dealer I'd like to ask them to look up in the diagnostic computer the correction factor value for DEF use. If others can do the same then maybe we can compare by region and look for correlation with DEF consumption or particulates on the rear end. (I think several cars in my region experience particulates on the rear end as has been discussed in this forum.)

By the way, paraphrasing some material I have in paper format (no URL), the technical term for DEF is AUS32. It is a urea/water solution that is 32.5% urea. AdBlue is a registered trademark for AUS32, held by the German Association of the Automobile Industry. However, AdBlue is not the only producer of AUS32. There's a reference to a specification named DIN 70070.

The freezing temp of DEF is -11 C (12 F). The small active tank is heated. The passive tank is not. The line between the active tank and the SCR is heated. I suppose if you drive only short trips in a below-freezing climate then it might be possible to drain the active tank faster than fluid flows from the passive tank if the passive tank is not thawed long enough to fill the active tank. But I think you get up to 1000 miles out of a full active tank.
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  #28  
Old 06-02-2011, 05:42 AM
DnA Diesel DnA Diesel is offline
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I got the warning last week with about 2700km to go until servicing. I just did a quick fill of the active tank with the 1.89L bottle and good to go. I got the bottle for $27 a while ago, and modified the top to be able to refill it at the truck stops for $8.

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  #29  
Old 06-02-2011, 06:09 AM
Philm35 Philm35 is offline
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Thanks for your post, autoJeff. Some very useful information!
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  #30  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:25 AM
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rmorin49 rmorin49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by satmgr View Post
My Dealer did not know how to fill the upper passive tank (my sales person asked me how it was done) They would only fill the lower tank and as a result I got the low level alert after about 3000 miles? I've already notified BMW USA about the incidents. They did not respond to the event but I believe they probably sent out additional documentation to the dealers to take corrective action. I went to VW dealer and bought 2 jugs @2.5 gallons of DEF for less than $40.00, cut down the welded neck of a BMW bottle and loaded up the upper tank. The DEF is chemically the same but isn't shipped from Germany so its much cheaper to use. Just use eye protection and do it outdoors. Its a mild irritant so some of us would need to use rubber gloves and a clean funnel for transferring from VW jug to BMW fill bottle.
Can I buy a BMW fill bottle? What is the cost?


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  #31  
Old 06-02-2011, 07:36 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by rmorin49 View Post
Can I buy a BMW fill bottle? What is the cost?


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There is, I do not know the cost but also have read you can buy the VW fill bottles and they have the right outlet on them for our cars. Same fluid and tends to be cheaper at VW than BMW.
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  #32  
Old 06-02-2011, 04:08 PM
DnA Diesel DnA Diesel is offline
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rmorin49, the 1.89L Kruse bottle is $27 in Canada, so I'm thinking it's got to be $22-25 in America. The bottle has a one-way screw cap, but a quick trim with a box cutter and you can unscrew the cap and refill with cheap DEF from places like the Flying J or other diesel malls.

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D.
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  #33  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:03 AM
elester12 elester12 is offline
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My 335d threw a fault code and triggered the check engine light. I've had an on going issue where the code comes back due to urea crusting up and the pump not being able to transfer the urea. I've stopped taking it to the dealer and just clean the parts myself.

I can't seem to get more than 5k before that message pop's up along with the fault.
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  #34  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:30 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by elester12 View Post
My 335d threw a fault code and triggered the check engine light. I've had an on going issue where the code comes back due to urea crusting up and the pump not being able to transfer the urea. I've stopped taking it to the dealer and just clean the parts myself.

I can't seem to get more than 5k before that message pop's up along with the fault.
What are the steps you take to clean things?
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  #35  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:44 AM
elester12 elester12 is offline
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I remove the hoses on the transfer pump and clean them out. I also clean the pump itself.

When I removed the hose I activated the transfer pump and noticed the fluid was not flowing. After I clean out the pump and the hose I reactivated the pump and fluid was flowing. Normally the crust will build right on the outlet of the pump itself.

I'm going to be in Germany over the next few weeks but I'll be happy to take pictures and write a DIY when i get back.
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  #36  
Old 06-03-2011, 05:52 AM
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rmorin49 rmorin49 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
There is, I do not know the cost but also have read you can buy the VW fill bottles and they have the right outlet on them for our cars. Same fluid and tends to be cheaper at VW than BMW.
Thanks, I'll check this out as I plan to buy some DEF from a local Pilot Truck Stop. Does the VW bottle come filled with DEF?


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  #37  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:04 AM
elester12 elester12 is offline
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It comes filled with Urea however the bottles VW sell's only has a small quantity. I would go to NAPA and get the 2.5gal. It comes with the adapter you need.

Those bottles VW sell's are intended for a quick top off.
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  #38  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:28 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elester12 View Post
It comes filled with Urea however the bottles VW sell's only has a small quantity. I would go to NAPA and get the 2.5gal. It comes with the adapter you need.

Those bottles VW sell's are intended for a quick top off.
I thought VW like BMW sold different sized bottles. Since most of us are still under warranty periods then I'd think quick top off sized bottles are actually perfect. I'd get just one though then buy the larger containers from the parts store and siphon into the smaller. At least that is what I'd do if I had worries of needing some when on the road. Stuff has a limited shelf life so unless I had another vehicle that used it then I'd not stockpile up on it.
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  #39  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:32 AM
elester12 elester12 is offline
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You're right. My x5 took an entire 2.5 gal's to top off after 3k miles.
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  #40  
Old 06-03-2011, 06:46 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by elester12 View Post
You're right. My x5 took an entire 2.5 gal's to top off after 3k miles.
If my car triggered a low light just 3k miles after a top off then it would be going to the dealer for a problem. If I could not get there before it ran out then I'd top it off some to make it there or just tow the junk there. Alternatively I'd load it on our trailer and dump the stupid thing through the glass to their showroom floor. The last thought to enter my head would be to top off both tanks myself unless of course I was out of warranty.
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  #41  
Old 06-03-2011, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Snipe656 View Post
At least that is what I'd do if I had worries of needing some when on the road. Stuff has a limited shelf life so unless I had another vehicle that used it then I'd not stockpile up on it.
I believe virtually all truck stops and most auto parts stores now stock DEF, so buying a bottle and a funnel while traveling should not be a problem, as all DEF is the same. I believe most Ford and Dodge dealers also stock DEF.
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  #42  
Old 06-03-2011, 12:46 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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I own a lot of different funnels and don't think one would fit for this. Think I'd much prefer to have a bottle specific to the port. Even an empty bottle but again that would be if I we're actually worried about it. I am not worried which is why I lack any of the stuff. I am more worried about getting low on oil and that worry is not high enough for me to go and buy an extra quart.
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  #43  
Old 06-07-2011, 08:26 AM
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OK, I am just a few hundred miles shy of the 25k mark. I was expecting my second service at 26k (first was at 13k), but the BC has advised me with a funky triangle alarm which I interpret as it is due for oil service at 25k. This morning I got the DEF alarm, another funky exhaust symbol with drops of liquid and smoke saying no restart in 999 miles.

Looks like everything is falling in line for a service at 12k after my first one. Not sure when the computer switched from a 13k interval to a 12k. I was all worked up when I got the service alarm, I just knew something was wrong but what? I even pulled over and checked my tire pressure because I thought perhaps that was the problem.
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  #44  
Old 06-07-2011, 08:30 AM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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Originally Posted by Flyingman View Post
OK, I am just a few hundred miles shy of the 25k mark. I was expecting my second service at 26k (first was at 13k), but the BC has advised me with a funky triangle alarm which I interpret as it is due for oil service at 25k. This morning I got the DEF alarm, another funky exhaust symbol with drops of liquid and smoke saying no restart in 999 miles.

Looks like everything is falling in line for a service at 12k after my first one. Not sure when the computer switched from a 13k interval to a 12k. I was all worked up when I got the service alarm, I just knew something was wrong but what? I even pulled over and checked my tire pressure because I thought perhaps that was the problem.
Interesting, mine has always been pretty clear on the center dash pod screen about the upcoming service needed. Only time it was unclear on anything is when I was low on oil. Wonder if things display/work differently on cars with iDrive. Been awhile since I have been in my car but I'd sworn that it even flashes up how many miles left for an oil change everytime I start the engine. BTW, nice thing about the low tire pressure is that the car should display which tire is low. Maybe in a few years it will catch up with GM and even display pressure amounts
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  #45  
Old 06-07-2011, 06:55 PM
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Yes, it does pop up briefly when you first start the engine but I'm usually doing something else as I press the start button, so don't usually look at it.

If you scroll through the screen using the turn signal key pad (up or down), it shows the oil can and miles and date left till service. I think it lit up at about 400 miles to go, now it stays on, same as the DEF warning.
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  #46  
Old 06-07-2011, 07:01 PM
Snipe656 Snipe656 is offline
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My first oil change never had the low DEF light come on and seems like most people on here say something similar. So not sure all is falling into place with it coming on before your second change but with it being so close mileage wise then who cares(right?). My low DEF light came on before(roughly when it was due) my second oil change but my second oil change was time related and not mileage related at all.
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  #47  
Old 06-07-2011, 09:02 PM
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I had my second DEF warning about 5k miles after my first oil change. I did a quick refill (with a funnel) on a matter of minutes.
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  #48  
Old 06-08-2011, 06:38 PM
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Well, as soon as you open the door, turn on the car, stop the car and remove the key, you get the DEF warning light advising how many miles till no start.

So nobody can say they didn't realize it!

The fact that it came on 999 miles prior to empty, and I had the service warning with about 250 miles to, would have certainly brought me close to the expected 15k miles, but recall that DEF consumption is based on fuel consumption and not miles driven.

So it seems to have fit in to what one should expect.
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  #49  
Old 08-03-2011, 02:59 PM
Runnerman2 Runnerman2 is offline
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Had to have refilled twice before our first oil change service. First time was at 6,300 miles. Second time was at approximately 9,000 miles. Upon running full diagnostics on the car, the dealer determined the auxilary DEF pump was faulty, which was then replaced under warranty. Since that repair, we are now at 22,600 miles with no further problems.
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  #50  
Old 10-26-2011, 02:46 PM
Gades Gades is offline
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Same issue...probably same dealership

Like the gentleman below, I received a warning and took it in to the Sterling Va BMW stealership. I was under the assumption that it was covered under the warranty program as well> I was charged $65 for 2 bottles and was told since it was not time for a normal service interval ( I still had another 2500 miles to go) that I was to pay for the DEF...Nice!






Quote:
Originally Posted by slugdriver View Post
Have a post on this about this time last year - see below pasted thread. The irony of it all, a week or two after the March incident BMW released a Service Bulletin recognizing the DEF problem. Ultimately, had both tanks refilled in Sept '10 at Passport BMW at the first scheduled oil change.

Slug





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03-27-2010, 05:18 PM
slugdriver
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Refilled DEF Myself to Avoid $300 Fee
Ok, ladies and germs, allow me a few lines to bitch and moan. Here goes...

A few weeks back I received the "1000 miles until car won't start" message in the instrument panel with only 4632 miles on the car. I had to fly out of town and did not have my owners manual with, so I called Sterling BMW here in Virginia to inquire about refilling the tank.

I was told by the SA that the DEF tank refill would be covered free of charge under BMW's 4yr/50K mile maintenance program. He also advised that they had to "reset" the computer once completing the refill. Thus, I had to bring the car in.

So early last Monday morning, I took the car to the stealership, picked up a loaner and went on my way to work. By early afternoon, the SA called me to advise that BMW would not cover the refill, as it was required prior to the first scheduled oil change, where in theory, they would refill the tank at no charge. Adding insult to injury, he advised that they could go ahead and refill the tank at a charge of $300!!!!

I told him not to do anything to the car and related that I was peaved, because it was a waste of my time to drop off the car, and that I was incorrectly advised that refill would be covered free of charge under the maintenance program. Moreover, it was ridiculous to charge a customer $300 for the tank refill.

While picking up the car later that day, I purchased a bottle of the DEF at the parts counter for $17, went home, confirmed with my owners manual this was something I could do myself (computer resets itself!!!), and took less than 5 minutes to refill the tank.
Bottom line is the dealer wanted $300 for 5 min worth of labor? That's $60/min - WTFO?

Suffice to say, no wonder dealerships don't have the best reputations. Moreover, how many owners who are not savvy enough to ask questions/do minor maintenance themselves end up blowing wads of cash?!!!

Ok, off the soap box.

Final question: Has anyone on this forum seen 15K miles or anything north of 5K miles on the original tank of DEF from the factory? Would be curious to know....

Slug
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