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E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

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  #51  
Old 03-05-2011, 05:13 AM
wade_wilson530i wade_wilson530i is offline
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05 530i 218K
Niiiiice, I feel good about my 530i now.
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  #52  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:43 PM
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Wow - some very high mileage 530s!

AT or MT?


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  #53  
Old 03-05-2011, 03:46 PM
TheThirdLaw TheThirdLaw is offline
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Wow! That makes me feel good about my E60 as well. Any major problems reaching 218k bobr2001?
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  #54  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:26 AM
Belarus27 Belarus27 is offline
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  #55  
Old 03-07-2011, 08:32 AM
hooch999 hooch999 is offline
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Originally Posted by jackalope View Post

You also have to consider the time and convenience factor of BMW's infrequent service schedule versus say Lexus where you're coming in 3 x as often (and PAYING each time) just for routine service.
BMW includes so called "maintenance" for free with new cars that's why it's less frequent - they need to lower the cost.
The problem here is their 15000 oil change interval is just ridiculous - I would not want to buy a used car which was maintained under such schedule. Most synth oil degrades substantially in less than 8K miles. Does BMW know that? Obviously yes - but still they use "free maintenance" as a marketing trick. Is it dishonest tactic - yes it is.
Based on that fact and on my experience purchasing a BMW and servicing it do I think that BMW is a dishonest company? Yes I do.

Last edited by hooch999; 03-07-2011 at 08:36 AM.
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  #56  
Old 03-07-2011, 11:44 AM
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Originally Posted by hooch999 View Post
BMW includes so called "maintenance" for free with new cars that's why it's less frequent - they need to lower the cost.
The problem here is their 15000 oil change interval is just ridiculous - I would not want to buy a used car which was maintained under such schedule. Most synth oil degrades substantially in less than 8K miles. Does BMW know that? Obviously yes - but still they use "free maintenance" as a marketing trick. Is it dishonest tactic - yes it is.
Based on that fact and on my experience purchasing a BMW and servicing it do I think that BMW is a dishonest company? Yes I do.
I completely disagree with your assessment, especially your broad accusation that BMW is dishonest as a company.

1) Not necessarily true that BMW went to a longer maintenance interval just to save money. While it's true that BMW would incur less cost associated with maintenance during the first 4 years/50,000 miles, they also generate less service revenue after this period due to the longer intervals.

2) Not necessarily true that most synthetic oils degrade in less than 8K miles. The rate of degradation depends on oil quality, the enviromental conditions, how hard the engine is used, the oil filter size and efficiency, and the total quantity/capacity of oil in the engine relative to its size.

Since I'm an old school DIY used to changing conventional oil every 3K miles, I too had trepidation over BMW's extended oil change intervals. After doing a bit of research, I determined BMW uses a 4 pronged strategy to realize extended intervals without sacrificing longevity:

1) High quality full synthetic oil that is appropriate for this type of service strategy.
2) Large capacity/high efficiency oil filters to strain and hold contaminants over a longer time.
3) Increased oil volume relative to engine size (my 535i takes 6.9Q for its 3.0 liter engine versus say my previous car a 2004 G35 taking 5.0Q for its 3.5 liter engine). This increased capacity helps keep the enginer running cooler and reduces the overall contaminant level by dispersing it through a larger oil volume.
4) Conditioned Based Service where the computer reduces the interval if it detects higher than normal engine loads.

Bottom line in my opinion based on my own research is that BMW engineers are very smart when it comes to maintenance and have created a win-win situation for the customer and the company. Nothing dishonest about that.
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  #57  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:05 PM
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2) Not necessarily true that most synthetic oils degrade in less than 8K miles. The rate of degradation depends on oil quality, the enviromental conditions, how hard the engine is used, the oil filter size and efficiency, and the total quantity/capacity of oil in the engine relative to its size.

It does not matter whether the oil is mineral based or synthetic. The DI package that protects the engine from the oil is the same. The ability for the additives to suspend soot and dirt deteriorate whether synthetic or not.
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  #58  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:19 PM
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2) Not necessarily true that most synthetic oils degrade in less than 8K miles. The rate of degradation depends on oil quality, the enviromental conditions, how hard the engine is used, the oil filter size and efficiency, and the total quantity/capacity of oil in the engine relative to its size.

It does not matter whether the oil is mineral based or synthetic. The DI package that protects the engine from the oil is the same. The ability for the additives to suspend soot and dirt deteriorate whether synthetic or not.
Agreed that everything deteriorates, but the amount of DI can vary from oil to oil (whether synthetic or not). Also, the rate of deterioration is still dependent on all the metrics I outline in my post. The bottom line is that the poster's 8K assertion is not factual in the context of it being a blanket statement.
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  #59  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:28 PM
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I think the larger capacity sump is what gets BMW to the extended drain intervals. MB and Porsche do the same.
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  #60  
Old 03-07-2011, 01:46 PM
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I think the larger capacity sump is what gets BMW to the extended drain intervals. MB and Porsche do the same.
I agree this is the #1 factor with the large oil filter and use of high quality synthetic being the secondary and tertiary factors; and of course the CBS keeping things under control if the engine sees heavy load.
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  #61  
Old 03-07-2011, 02:19 PM
wisbimmer20 wisbimmer20 is offline
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205,000 on my 95 525. Running like a well oiled turbine. Everything works!
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  #62  
Old 03-07-2011, 04:59 PM
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Mileage

We have 78k on our 2006 525i.

Purchased with 38k miles in March 2008. Enjoyed the factory warranty up to 50,000 miles. Our dealer was very helpful in taking care of a lot of smaller issues that the 1st owner (leasee) didn't bother to act on. Did get towed to the dealer under warranty for a new battery.

Only issue since warranty expired was trans oil leak. Repair and change trans oil was about $800. Otherwise the car has been reliable and a rewal pleasure to own.

We hope to keep it for another 5 years and run it up to 200K. I hope that is realistic.
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  #63  
Old 03-07-2011, 06:21 PM
wisbimmer20 wisbimmer20 is offline
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The key to owning a high mileage BMW that doesn't cause incessant issues is life long maintenance. My car was my uncles car who is an attorney before he gave it to me before he moved to Texas for work and he took very good care of it throughout its life, fixed everything as soon as it needed to be fixed, didn't skimp on parts quality etc. Major issues are essentially limited to the slow disintegration of the body of the car which is nevertheless, in remarkable shape for what it is although minor rusting is a reality on any high mileage car. But make no mistake about it, this car requires regular servicing still and is in and out of the shop moreso than most cars but she's still worth every penny.
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  #64  
Old 03-08-2011, 05:21 AM
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We have 78k on our 2006 525i.

Purchased with 38k miles in March 2008. Enjoyed the factory warranty up to 50,000 miles. Our dealer was very helpful in taking care of a lot of smaller issues that the 1st owner (leasee) didn't bother to act on. Did get towed to the dealer under warranty for a new battery.

Only issue since warranty expired was trans oil leak. Repair and change trans oil was about $800. Otherwise the car has been reliable and a rewal pleasure to own.

We hope to keep it for another 5 years and run it up to 200K. I hope that is realistic.
Was not a CPO I take it?
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  #65  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:49 AM
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On the oil issue: I am not an engine expert by any means so my experience is just anecdotal. I put on about 12,000 mi per year so my car doesn't get driven hard very often. I was looking at my service indicator on the iDrive and saw the oil change mi sitting at 15,000, the default. I knew it had been quite awhile since I had the oil changed. So I called the dealer and they looked it up: it had been 14 months since the last oil change. Yikes. So I arranged a appt at the dealer to have it changed. And also to look at the iDrive, why weren't those miles counting down? I waited for the car while the oil was changed. The tech comes out and says "someone has changed this oil since we changed it last. The oil looks absolutely clean as well as the filter." I told him no way, they are the only ones to have touched the car. So the car had gone 14 months and 14k mi or so and the oil was in great shape. Now, it may be one thing for the oil to look good vs it's actual lubricating qualities. However, I found it comforting that the oil was in that great of shape after over a year in the engine.

And the non-counting down of the miles comes down to the computer determining how hard the car is driven. Since I only get out on the hwy a couple of times a week it wasn't enough hard driving to get the needle to move on the oil change miles.

Again, I know there is a great deal of contention among the owners on whether 15k interval is adequate. And my experience may be an outlier.
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  #66  
Old 03-08-2011, 07:52 AM
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Originally Posted by 235301 View Post
On the oil issue: I am not an engine expert by any means so my experience is just anecdotal. I put on about 12,000 mi per year so my car doesn't get driven hard very often. I was looking at my service indicator on the iDrive and saw the oil change mi sitting at 15,000, the default. I knew it had been quite awhile since I had the oil changed. So I called the dealer and they looked it up: it had been 14 months since the last oil change. Yikes. So I arranged a appt at the dealer to have it changed. And also to look at the iDrive, why weren't those miles counting down? I waited for the car while the oil was changed. The tech comes out and says "someone has changed this oil since we changed it last. The oil looks absolutely clean as well as the filter." I told him no way, they are the only ones to have touched the car. So the car had gone 14 months and 14k mi or so and the oil was in great shape. Now, it may be one thing for the oil to look good vs it's actual lubricating qualities. However, I found it comforting that the oil was in that great of shape after over a year in the engine.

And the non-counting down of the miles comes down to the computer determining how hard the car is driven. Since I only get out on the hwy a couple of times a week it wasn't enough hard driving to get the needle to move on the oil change miles.

Again, I know there is a great deal of contention among the owners on whether 15k interval is adequate. And my experience may be an outlier.
Maybe the oil fairy paid you a visit
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  #67  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:07 AM
hooch999 hooch999 is offline
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Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
I completely disagree with your assessment, especially your broad accusation that BMW is dishonest as a company.

1) Not necessarily true that BMW went to a longer maintenance interval just to save money. While it's true that BMW would incur less cost associated with maintenance during the first 4 years/50,000 miles, they also generate less service revenue after this period due to the longer intervals.
First people rarely go to dealer to change oil AFTER free maintenance ended, unless they like to throw money in trash. Second, AFTER free stuff ends this is a dealer problem (less revenue), not BMW, so they just don't care.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jackalope View Post
2) Not necessarily true that most synthetic oils degrade in less than 8K miles. The rate of degradation depends on oil quality, the enviromental conditions, how hard the engine is used, the oil filter size and efficiency, and the total quantity/capacity of oil in the engine relative to its size.


Since I'm an old school DIY used to changing conventional oil every 3K miles, I too had trepidation over BMW's extended oil change intervals. After doing a bit of research, I determined BMW uses a 4 pronged strategy to realize extended intervals without sacrificing longevity:

1) High quality full synthetic oil that is appropriate for this type of service strategy.
2) Large capacity/high efficiency oil filters to strain and hold contaminants over a longer time.
3) Increased oil volume relative to engine size (my 535i takes 6.9Q for its 3.0 liter engine versus say my previous car a 2004 G35 taking 5.0Q for its 3.5 liter engine). This increased capacity helps keep the enginer running cooler and reduces the overall contaminant level by dispersing it through a larger oil volume.
4) Conditioned Based Service where the computer reduces the interval if it detects higher than normal engine loads.
Google or search forums, enthusiasts have already done oil tests, and most folks change oil around 6-7K miles with normal driving. Why? Because it does deteriorate severely by that time even with all that you have just said about "high quality oil, condition based service, bla bla".
BTW your 535 takes more oil than your G35 not because bmw engineers "are smart" - because it's turbo - it always takes more oil, I hope I don't have to explain why.
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  #68  
Old 03-08-2011, 08:25 AM
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Originally Posted by hooch999 View Post
First people rarely go to dealer to change oil AFTER free maintenance ended, unless they like to throw money in trash. Second, AFTER free stuff ends this is a dealer problem (less revenue), not BMW, so they just don't care.
First, you don't actually know for a fact what people do or don't do after the free maintenance period. Considering the infrequency of the oil change, the cost of getting one done at a dealer is not as ridiculous as throwing money in the "trash", especially considering any software updates, recalls, etc. would all be handled during this event. Second, while you do have a point that BMW corporation does not directly receive the post 48/50K maintenance revenue (the dealer does), it would still be in BMW's interest for their dealer network to maximize revenue with frequent oil changes for their own financial health.

Quote:
Google or search forums, enthusiasts have already done oil tests, and most folks change oil around 6-7K miles with normal driving. Why? Because it does deteriorate severely by that time even with all that you have just said about "high quality oil, condition based service, bla bla".
No one is arguing oil degrades, all oil degrades. What you refer to are anecdotes where an owner performs an oil test and gets back results saying XYZ has degraded. This does not necessarily equate to reduced engine life or performance. If you have a peer reviewed objective study that demonstrates reduced engine life please cite it.

Quote:
BTW your 535 takes more oil than your G35 not because bmw engineers "are smart" - because it's turbo - it always takes more oil, I hope I don't have to explain why.
My 535's oil capacity is the same as the non-turbo 528.

Please enlighten me on how this fact reconciles with your statement I bolded above.
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  #69  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:06 AM
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My 535's oil capacity is the same as the non-turbo 528.

Please enlighten me on how this fact reconciles with your statement I bolded above.
My 530xi also takes 6.9 qts, non turbo.

My old Lexus LX450 SUV took over 8 quarts!

As far as oil degradation, it depends on environment, how much you drive, city vs highway, etc. That's why BMW makes exceptions to the 15k miles if you drive less during the year. It is 15k or annually.

A study was conducted when synthetics first came out. People were concerned since Dino oil was changed every 3k, how could you go longer? An air cooled motorcycle was tested and ridden 12k miles with no engine wear and the oil properties were still intact. So BMW is not doing something strange or crooked with their maintenance. Many of us choose to change oil on our own in between since we want to keep the car past warranty.
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  #70  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:10 AM
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My 535's oil capacity is the same as the non-turbo 528.

Please enlighten me on how this fact reconciles with your statement I bolded above.
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  #71  
Old 03-08-2011, 10:35 AM
hooch999 hooch999 is offline
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My 535's oil capacity is the same as the non-turbo 528.

Please enlighten me on how this fact reconciles with your statement I bolded above.

I guess this is a question to "smart bmw engineers" .
But I gladly educate you though arguing with people blinded by wearing BMW glasses is a waste of time.
Speaking technically it's another design flaw - normally turbo engines need more oil than
normally aspirated since turbos run at much higher temperatures so they need more oil to cool down. It seems like here BMW screwed up by using too much oil in 528.

So basically it's another big BS bmw pulling on us - their so called "green" cars are not really that green - they use more oil than needed thus adding to the pollution!
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  #72  
Old 03-08-2011, 11:05 AM
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More oil capacity but longer intervals. Not sure how much this affects their "greenness".
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  #73  
Old 03-08-2011, 12:06 PM
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Originally Posted by hooch999 View Post
I guess this is a question to "smart bmw engineers" .
But I gladly educate you though arguing with people blinded by wearing BMW glasses is a waste of time.
Speaking technically it's another design flaw - normally turbo engines need more oil than
normally aspirated since turbos run at much higher temperatures so they need more oil to cool down. It seems like here BMW screwed up by using too much oil in 528.
Forgive me, I don't mean to waste your time, but I enjoy confusing you with facts to the point where you can only "argue" by insulting the other person.

You are correct that forced induction generates much more engine heat, and that heat mitigation must be considered by the engineers. Oil is not the only means to heat mitigation, however. Indeed, nowadays more manufactrurers use the cooling system on forced induction engines for the heat mitigation, and in the case of the 535i it has a very large additional "radiator" that provides this mitigation vs. say the 528i.


Quote:
So basically it's another big BS bmw pulling on us - their so called "green" cars are not really that green - they use more oil than needed thus adding to the pollution!
Can you please direct me to where/when BMW advertised the 535i as a "green" car? Please be specific.
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  #74  
Old 03-08-2011, 12:46 PM
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Let's not forget that more oil does absolutely nothing from a cooling standpoint, just takes longer to reach equilibrium temperature than less oil. You still have to have way to get the heat out of the oil. The oil is just a medium for transferring the heat from the engine to a cooling device. The cooling device/method is the business end of that deal, not the volume of oil.
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  #75  
Old 03-08-2011, 01:16 PM
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Let's not forget that more oil does absolutely nothing from a cooling standpoint, just takes longer to reach equilibrium temperature than less oil. You still have to have way to get the heat out of the oil. The oil is just a medium for transferring the heat from the engine to a cooling device. The cooling device/method is the business end of that deal, not the volume of oil.
100% on point.
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