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E34 (1989 - 1995)

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  #1  
Old 03-25-2011, 02:40 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Mein Auto: 525i
95 525i won't start, won't turn over

Car ran hot a month ago ended up cracking the head in a few places. Had the head checked determined that a replacement engine was cheaper than repairing the old head with the chance that there was damage elsewhere.

We found a replacement with only 108K, put it in. Kept the original wiring harness to match dme. Hooked everything up, car won't turnover with key.

We can manually turn it over via the starter, but we determine that there's no fire or gas to the engine. Found the gas relay and by jumping, we get the gas to flow when key turns, stop jumping no gas. Still no spark.

Note: When we bought the car 5 years ago we didn't get the wireless entry, only 1 key. The door locks were always screwed up for some reason. Before changing the engine we were having issues where the key wouldn't unlock the driver side door. We had to open the passenger side door to open the driver door. Then after replacing the engine, I stuck the key in the driver side door and the key got extremely hot. This was while jump starting the car (from another car) after the battery weakened.

We thought that there was an EWS issue, where the car was in anti theft mode. We disconnected the battery, thought we reset the EWS, turned the key both ways and held for a period etc. Since then, we have also replaced the battery. We also replaced all of the relays.

Dashboard lights up fine.

What could it be? LOL

Thanks for your time!
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  #2  
Old 03-25-2011, 03:11 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Hey Chuck. Welcome to the Fest. You don't mention the year of the old car or new engine. Given the symptoms as you list, it does sound like an EWS issue.

Did you remember to also include/transfer the black EWS ring that goes around the ingnition tumber where you insert the key? I had to replace the tumbler on my E36 about a year or two ago. I got it replaced without much difficulty. I inserted the key and turned it and ...... nothing. Just like you describe, the dash lights and everything worked except the engine would do nothing. No click or anything. It scared the bijeebers out of me. I thought I had screwed something up. I looked and noticed that I had failed to replace the EWS ring. I replaced it and ..... voila ..... it fired right up.

Does this sound familiar to you? I know you got the wiring harness, but make sure you also transfer the EWS ring to the new car.

Hope this helps. Again, welcome.

Steve
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Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #3  
Old 03-25-2011, 04:47 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Thanks Steve,

We're talking about a 95 525i, the new engine is "supposed" to have come out of a 95 525i also although the wiring harness was different.

We didn't take anything apart on the steering column to have to place the EWS ring back on. I can check to see if there is one there now.

We're only talking about 1 car and just replacing the engine in that car. We took the harness off of the old engine and put it on the new engine so that it would match the dme.

I have seen some of your other posts and was hoping you had some answers. :-)

Thanks
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  #4  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:30 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Unfortunately, the 1995 has the EWS II. Therefore, the DME must come from a 95 (silver label). However, if you brought the wiring harness, including DME, from the "new" engine (1995 model), I would think the engine would start, theoretically anyway.

I am dealing with a no-start on my E36 now, but I don't think it is the EWS since the engine turns over fine, I'm just getting no spark. I have essentially ruled everything out except for the DME. I am looking at either spending $475 to get my DME rebuilt or buying a red label 413 DME and doing some "alterations" to the WES module.

One possibility that has been suggested to me is to get an EWS delete chip. I think they retail for $299. Roberto here on the Fest says cheap ones can be purchased on Ebay for about $50-60, but I can't confirm that.

Another possibility that has been suggested is to cut the green wire in the EWS module. Here is some information that Roberto forwarded to me. I'm really not good at all with electrical stuff otherwise I probably would have already addressed this possibility. I have to do some studying up on it. Please read it and see what you think.

The red label 413 will work on your EWS car without the need of any EWS delete chip, but the EWS signal from the EWS module must be stopped by disconnecting or cutting green wire #4 on the EWS module. Also, I received a feedback from a Customer, about what he did to have an EWS car with EWS ecu working with a non-EWS chip. What he exactly wrote, is at the top of the article below:

http://qcwo.com/technicaldomain/ews-deletion-chip

The chip he mentions is a performance chip, not a EWS delete chip. So with an EWS car, with a non-EWS ecu (your case), you just need to cut one wire (GREEN #4) and jump two other wires (BLACK/YELLOW #1and BLACK/YELLOW #3). The other thing to do was to replace the chip with a regular 413 chip (from a red label ECU), but are already doing so if installing a complete red label ECU. Connections to the EWS module for using a red label ecu would be as shown in the picture below. Should you have more questions, please I will appreciate if you reply on theblog, as I monitor it daily and others will benefit from it.
Best regards,

Richard
www.TechnicalDomain.Net
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #5  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:35 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Your crank sensor is busted. Get a new one. $60 shipped via ebay.

You have an EWS issue. Read thoroughly about this and see if the immobiliser system has got anything to do with the engine and the wiring harness (it might). This is not well understood and it should be. The solution would be to get a delete chip. $30-$40 shipped on ebay. Recommended over the immobiliser delete procedure because it would also be a performance enhancing chip too (should be stated as such in the ad if not confirm with the seller). Don't waste your time with $300 ews delete chips.

Its one of the two options above.

Try out the stomp test and see if it shows you anything useful. Google for more info on that. Oh wait that's not necessary :

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528699

Just reread your post. Why did you transfer the wiring harness over? If it was the same engine, every connection would have been exactly the same....

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 03-25-2011 at 05:39 PM.
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  #6  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:42 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Your crank sensor is busted. Get a new one. $60 shipped via ebay.

You have an EWS issue. Read thoroughly about this and see if the immobiliser system has got anything to do with the engine and the wiring harness (it might). This is not well understood and it should be. The solution would be to get a delete chip. $30-$40 shipped on ebay. Recommended over the immobiliser delete procedure because it would also be a performance enhancing chip too.

Its one of the two options above.

Try out the stomp test and see if it shows you anything useful. Google for more info on that. Oh wait that's not necessary :

http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=528699

Just reread your post. Why did you transfer the wiring harness over? If it was the same engine, every connection would have been exactly the same....
Why do you say his CPS is busted? He has no way to determine that it is even a problem yet since the engine will not turn over. Plus, he now has a spare on his onld engine. I really think this an EWS problem since the car will not turn over, but everything else seems "normal". If his old car is a 95 and his "new" engine is a 95, he would have to bring the old wiring harness over to have the EWS system match up, otherwise he would have had to have BMW re-synch his EWS system. I gave him the information you provided to me earlier regarding the EWS. Hopefully he can figure it out better than I can.

Steve

BTW, thanks for all of the assistance you have been giving me.
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Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #7  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:44 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR_LVR View Post
Unfortunately, the 1995 has the EWS II. Therefore, the DME must come from a 95 (silver label). However, if you brought the wiring harness, including DME, from the "new" engine (1995 model), I would think the engine would start, theoretically anyway.
I don't think so sir. The dme from the other car would not match up with the immobiliser from this car. He would need to change the immobiliser and associated components to that from the other car as well. Pretty stunning that the idiots who sell engines to people don't explain stuff like this even though they are in the business.

So, if you changed the dme along with the engine, that's your problem right there. EWS 2.

Why don't you just try your old silver labelled dme? Ok two different wiring harnesses for some reason....ok then modify the immobiliser the way steve sir mentions above and you should be good to go.
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  #8  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:53 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR_LVR View Post
Why do you say his CPS is busted? He has no way to determine that it is even a problem yet since the engine will not turn over. Plus, he now has a spare on his onld engine. I really think this an EWS problem since the car will not turn over, but everything else seems "normal". If his old car is a 95 and his "new" engine is a 95, he would have to bring the old wiring harness over to have the EWS system match up, otherwise he would have had to have BMW re-synch his EWS system. I gave him the information you provided to me earlier regarding the EWS. Hopefully he can figure it out better than I can.

Steve

BTW, thanks for all of the assistance you have been giving me.
Apologies sir i didn't read his initial posts and your subsequent one properly dashed off a reply too quickly. Yes i agree it is the immobiliser system confirmed. However the immobiliser system is not the wiring harness....I've had so many mechs tell me that but I don't believe that that it is the wiring....the immobiliser system is the immobiliser unit, the stuff in the tumbler, the chip in the key, the black ring and the ecu. The wiring is just wiring and has no logic capabilities of its own.

rgds,
r
p.s. Thank you sir but it was richard who's help was critical.

EDIT : Agreed on the timing.

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 03-25-2011 at 06:17 PM.
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  #9  
Old 03-25-2011, 05:53 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
I don't think so sir. The dme from the other car would not match up with the immobiliser from this car. He would need to change the immobiliser and associated components to that from the other car as well. Pretty stunning that the idiots who sell engines to people don't explain stuff like this even though they are in the business.

So, if you changed the dme along with the engine, that's your problem right there. EWS 2.

Why don't you just try your old silver labelled dme? Ok two different wiring harnesses for some reason....ok then modify the immobiliser the way steve sir mentions above and you should be good to go.
Well, one thing is for sure, I don't have enough knowledge about the immobilizer to even make an intellegent argument.

I seem to have read on some research that the old harness, DME and ...... oh crap, I think this is it .... the old ignition switch has to be transplanted as well. I think that's it. Of course, that is where the EWS immobilizer ring (antenna) is located.

Chuck, can you get the ignition switch off of your donor car as well? I think that is what is causing the EWS to think the car is being stolen.

Steve

EDIT. Our timing sucks We keep answering too late (or early) to each other's posts
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold


Last edited by BMR_LVR; 03-25-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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  #10  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:36 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Just reread your post. Why did you transfer the wiring harness over? If it was the same engine, every connection would have been exactly the same....
Thanks for your response:

The new engine's wiring harness didn't have enough plugs/connections for the dme from the car. We were off by 1 missing plug/connection. So we used the old wiring harness so that it would match with the dme/connections from the car.

Unfortunately, we have no way to prove the year of the new engine. Looks the same, new engine appears to be in great condition.
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  #11  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:42 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
I don't think so sir. The dme from the other car would not match up with the immobiliser from this car. He would need to change the immobiliser and associated components to that from the other car as well. Pretty stunning that the idiots who sell engines to people don't explain stuff like this even though they are in the business.

So, if you changed the dme along with the engine, that's your problem right there. EWS 2.

Why don't you just try your old silver labelled dme? Ok two different wiring harnesses for some reason....ok then modify the immobiliser the way steve sir mentions above and you should be good to go.
Tad bit confused, going to have to speak with my mechanic, however:

1) we didn't change the dme or any of the EWS system from the original set up. We only changed the motor/engine. We used the wiring harness from the original motor/engine. So in theory, the old wiring harness with the old dme, with the old everything should work for the new replaced motor/engine?

2) going to check with my mechanic to determine if the immobiliser was changed.

Thanks again!
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  #12  
Old 03-25-2011, 10:49 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Apologies sir i didn't read his initial posts and your subsequent one properly dashed off a reply too quickly. Yes i agree it is the immobiliser system confirmed. However the immobiliser system is not the wiring harness....I've had so many mechs tell me that but I don't believe that that it is the wiring....the immobiliser system is the immobiliser unit, the stuff in the tumbler, the chip in the key, the black ring and the ecu. The wiring is just wiring and has no logic capabilities of its own.
Thanks guys, yall are the best!

My head is spinning, whew.

Tumbler? The key? ok - My key is a flashlight, you're saying chip in the key?

I read somewhere online that someone in a similar situation changed their ignition switch or part number 61 32 8 356 026 and it solved their no starting problem. (if you google this part number you will find the post) I was going to try this.

If I am correct you're saying now that they key, tumbler etc might be my problem.

We didn't change any of this from the old engine and using the same (old) harness wouldn't this all be the same immobiliser "wiring/stuff"?
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  #13  
Old 03-25-2011, 11:21 PM
chuckbmw1 chuckbmw1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR_LVR View Post
I seem to have read on some research that the old harness, DME and ...... oh crap, I think this is it .... the old ignition switch has to be transplanted as well. I think that's it. Of course, that is where the EWS immobilizer ring (antenna) is located.

Chuck, can you get the ignition switch off of your donor car as well? I think that is what is causing the EWS to think the car is being stolen.

EDIT. Our timing sucks We keep answering too late (or early) to each other's posts
Thanks Steve,

So you're saying the new motor needs to match the ignition switch from the car that it came out of? How would the motor/engine know?

We only changed the motor. We kept all wiring from the old motor. We also took the crank sensor off of the old motor to rule out the crank sensor. Since the old motor would start, we knew that the crank sensor from the old motor was working.

The ignition switch is the same as has always been on the car. Although I did find online where someone having the same problem replaced their ignition switch and it solved their problem.

Did I mention this is my wife's car? OMG, the questions she's now asking....LOL

__________________________________________________ __________________

Thanks everyone for your time!

(I know your time is of value and if we were closer I would buy you all a beer. I am an online marketer and as a token of my appreciation for your responses here's some free marketing software that I hope can help you in your businesses. Thanks again! http://www.onlinemarketingtools.net/...tools-mrr.html )
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  #14  
Old 03-26-2011, 09:01 AM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Hello Chuck. I agree, it has become very confusing. I went back and re-read your posts. See if my summary here is correct. Note: "old car" and "old engine" refer to original car you had. "New car" and "new engine" refer to the donor car.


1. Your old car (1995 525) had a cracked head.

2. You decided to swap motors rather than repair the head.

3. You found a new car with a M50 engine with 108K miles, but you are not sure of the year of the new car or engine.

4. You put only the new engine in the old car and left the old car with all original wiring, DME, ignition switch. In other words, the only thing you changed was the engine.

5. When you attempted to crank the new engine, it would do nothing with the key, but you could jump the starter terminals which would make the engine turn over, but it would not fire.

6. You then determined that there was no fuel or spark.

7. You jumped the fuel pump relay and determined that the fuel pump is working.

8. You were still getting no spark.

9. You used another vehicle to try to jump start the car due to a weak battery.

10. During the jump starting procedure, you had your one and only key in the driver's side door. (I'm assuming you mean that the jumper cables were connected to both vehicles and you had the key in the driver's door, but were not in the process of trying to turn the engine over since the key was in the door and not in the ignition).

11. Thinking it was an EWS issue, you disconnected the battery, turned the key both ways (not sure if you mean in the door or in the ignition) thinking that would reset the EWS.

12. You replaced the battery and all of the relays (assuming you include fuel pump and DME relays).

13. The dashboard lights up as usual, and with the exception of the engine not running over with the key, everything else looks okay.

14. The engine still does not turn over.


Do I have the summary and chronological order correct?

I also agree that, if all you swapped was the engine, then theoretically, it should work. This is true as long as your donor engine is a vanos equipped engine (1993-1995 I believe) since your original car is a 95 model with vanos. If the donor engine is non-vanos, then I do not believe it will work as a plug and play because the DME's are different in a vanos engine and non-vanos engine equipped car.

Upon further reading, you say that you had to use the old car wiring harness because the wiring harness from the new engine/car did not match the old car DME because it was off by one pin.

Here are my observations.

1. If the new engine was from a 93-95 model car, and all you swapped was the engine, then, as you state, it should have been just a matter of removing the old engine and dropping the new engine in the old car. It should have cranked and run fine.

2. The fact that the wiring harness from the new car/engine did not match up to the old car is very troublesome. I think this may be one of the possibilities of the cause of the problem. This makes me think that the new engine may be a non-vanos engine. I'm assuming you know the difference between the vanos and non-vanos engines. Please confirm that the new engine is vanos equipped and let us know.

3. The key overheating also concerns me. That is because, yes, there actually is a small electronic chip in the key of your old car. It is part of the EWS system. It communicates with the EWS module through the EWS ring/transmitter that is around the ignition where you insert the key. If that chip is fried, then your car will not start no matter what. You would have to order a new key and it would have to be ordered from a BMW dealer. This will not be cheap, but if the chip is fried, there is no other alternative since you don't have a second key. They will need proof of ownership of your car. It is best to take the title with you if you have it, but a registration card should be sufficient. Make sure you have your VIN. If you do this, I would suggest you order two keys. I don't understand why the key heated up while in the door when the batteries were connected. Is it possible that the polarity was reversed somehow when the battery was jumped? If so, any one of the electrical components (DME, EWS module, etc.) could be screwed up.

Please let us know if the new engine is vanos equipped.

I hope I have clarified this somewhat and have given you something that will help you get the engine going.

Please keep us updated on the status as things go along.

Steve
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Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #15  
Old 03-26-2011, 11:23 AM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Chuck, what is the date of manufacture of your car?

Also, I just confirmed in the E36 Bentley manual (I believe the EWS II is the same for the E36 and E34 - not 100% sure though) that the key can be duplicated only by a BMW dealer. It states that it is possible to damage the electronic circuitry of the chip in the key (which may have happened to you). It states in that case, a new key should be purchsed from BMW and re-initialized by BMW.

Steve
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold


Last edited by BMR_LVR; 03-26-2011 at 11:35 AM.
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  #16  
Old 03-26-2011, 12:57 PM
cager169 cager169 is offline
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interested on how this turns out.
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