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E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)
4th generation E90 M3 sedan, E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible. The last of the naturally aspirated M3s, powered by a 4.0 liter V8 making 414hp and 295 lb-ft of torque.

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  #26  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:35 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by AKAGodSent View Post
If you want to see if the guy I dealt with can get you a better deal, PM me and I'll see if he can do anything.
Thanks, but I gave this guy a $2500 non-refundable deposit as it's a special-order car, so he'd have to save me more than $70/month for me to break even on that. Also, I do kind of feel that I shook hands on the deal with the guy (not that that's necessarily a two-way street with a car dealer, lol). If anyone else pipes in with a deal similar to yours, though, I *will* give this guy a call and say "Hey, what's up with my price (besides the prices itself)?"

By the way, forgive my ignorance but what are "MSDs"?
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  #27  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:39 PM
AKAGodSent AKAGodSent is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Thanks, but I gave this guy a $2500 non-refundable deposit as it's a special-order car, so he'd have to save me more than $70/month for me to break even on that. Also, I do kind of feel that I shook hands on the deal with the guy (not that that's necessarily a two-way street with a car dealer, lol). If anyone else pipes in with a deal similar to yours, though, I *will* give this guy a call and say "Hey, what's up with my price (besides the prices itself)?"

By the way, forgive my ignorance but what are "MSDs"?
No worries, I had no idea you put down a non-refundable deposit (but since it's 'special order' I guess that's somewhat understandable). MSDs are multiple security deposits. You can't do them with a NY dealership, my current car came through a NJ dealer and it saved me some 50 dollars a month in payments. Basically, you put down up to 7 security deposits, each makes the base rate/money factor go down .00007, total of .00049, which are returned to you at the end of the lease, no matter if the car is stolen or totaled (unlike 'down payments/money down'). But in the case of the M3 Convertible, I think the money factor is low enough that MSDs might not save you that much.
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  #28  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:45 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by AKAGodSent View Post
MSDs are multiple security deposits.
Thanks. Yeah, we didn't pay any of those. However, I'm finding some earlier threads with considerably better deals (similar to yours), so I'm going to try going back to this guy anyway. Again, thanks!
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  #29  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:54 PM
AKAGodSent AKAGodSent is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Thanks. Yeah, we didn't pay any of those. However, I'm finding some earlier threads with considerably better deals (similar to yours), so I'm going to try going back to this guy anyway. Again, thanks!
Thank me if you can get a better deal . You should definitely be paying in the 700s. Why was your order a 'special order' by the way?
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  #30  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:55 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Lol, yeah I'm looking through some older threads here and starting to feel ripped off! The MSRP was $73,925 and I'm seeing guys posting about $80,000 MSRPs with sub-$800 lease payments!

Basically, I told the guy "everyone's entitled to make a living" and said I'd give him $1500 over the Edmond's invoice cost, so he wound up leasing me the car at around $4000 under MSRP. However, even $1000 cheaper would've only saved around $20/month and I know he set a high residual (I think it was 62% or so) and I got BMW's best-credit rate, so I'm not sure how one gets under $800 with a more expensive car, unless he fudged the numbers against me somehow. (I got it from Manhattan BMW.)
You've got to make sure that you're comparing apples to apples. Obviously one guy can have a loaded car and another one is stripped but there are a lot of other variables. For instance, in my case I'm doing euro delivery which means my invoice price is much lower which obviously has a huge effect. My MSRP is $81k but ED invoice means my sale price is about 7% lower than US invoice giving me a discount of over $10k (including dealer profit) from US MSRP, obviously much more of a discount than the $4k you're getting. There's nothing wrong with just a US purchase, it's just I often wonder why anybody wouldn't do an ED even if it means spending a couple of grand on a ticket just to pick the car up and then immediately drop it off and fly home.

Also, the lease terms vary. There's a big difference between 24 month/15k miles and 36 month/10k miles per year. These different choices can create quite a big difference in outcomes since both money factor and residual are effected. Also, MSDs are a no-brainer way to save money. Also, you need to consider if someone is rolling the "closing costs" like lease origination, doc, and tag fees into the lease or paying it separately and obviously state tax laws can make a significant difference. These can easily add over a $1k-$2k to your purchase price.

In my personal opinion, $1500 over invoice is OK but higher than you need to be. There are plenty of folks paying from 0 to $1k over invoice, even for an M3. Also, you need to check your money factor to see if you're getting buy rate and if there are any other dealer markups such as to your lease origination fee.
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Last edited by Mace14; 04-16-2011 at 04:57 PM.
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  #31  
Old 04-16-2011, 04:58 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by AKAGodSent View Post
Why was your order a 'special order' by the way?
"Special order" perhaps sounds too pompous. It's "built to order" and done without a lot of options that most people seem to get, and the dealer didn't want to be stuck with it. So, if we follow that through to its logical conclusion, I (apparently) am paying more for less!
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  #32  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:03 PM
AKAGodSent AKAGodSent is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
"Special order" perhaps sounds too pompous. It's "built to order" and done without a lot of options that most people seem to get, and the dealer didn't want to be stuck with it. So, if we follow that through to its logical conclusion, I (apparently) am paying more for less!
Nothing special about that, my last car was built to order, unless you're purchasing what a dealer has in stock that's how many, if not most, BMWs are ordered. The M3 I'm waiting on I picked out of those being delivered to dealers, as far as I understand. But I still had a few, very few since I did not want manual, options.
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  #33  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:05 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by Mace14 View Post
There's a big difference between 24 month/15k miles and 36 month/10k miles per year... Also, MSDs are a no-brainer way to save money. Also, you need to consider if someone is rolling the "closing costs" like lease origination, doc, and tag fees into the lease or paying it separately and obviously state tax laws can make a significant difference. In my personal opinion, $1500 over invoice is OK but higher than you need to be. There are plenty of folks paying from 0 to $1k over invoice, even for an M3. Also, you need to check your money factor to see if you're getting buy rate and if there are any other dealer markups such as to your lease origination fee.
1) This is 36 months/10k miles, which I presume should be cheaper than 24/15k

2) We're paying the upfront costs you mentioned separately.

3) Even if I paid $0 over invoice and thus saved another $1500, it would only be another $20/month or so in savings, so something still doesn't add up here (or maybe adds up TOO MUCH, lol).

Yes, I will email this guy and ask about the money factor.

Thanks.

Last edited by logicalthought; 04-16-2011 at 05:06 PM.
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  #34  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:09 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
"Special order" perhaps sounds too pompous. It's "built to order" and done without a lot of options that most people seem to get, and the dealer didn't want to be stuck with it. So, if we follow that through to its logical conclusion, I (apparently) am paying more for less!
Sorry, but that's a bunch of dealer smoke unless you've ordered something really "different" like blue with a red interior. Anyone who orders is doing a "built to order" and more than a $500 refundable deposit shouldn't be expected or paid. I really can't see any order BMW will allow you to build as justifying a $2500 non-refundible and most state laws probably preclude them from actually keeping your deposit even if it's obstensibly "non-refundible". Now, a special order individual car in lime green may fairly give any dealer pause.

I wonder though what else they may have slipped in. For instance, they can mark up the lease origination fee and money factor. Standard origination fee is $725 but they can legally bump it up (I think they can add as much as $200). For the MF, a typical and fair markup might be .000250 although it's easy enough to get buy rate. I'd argue about either of these markups and would walk for upping the origination fee or upping the MF by more than .000250.
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TODAY: '11 M3 Convertible, Mineral White, Fox Red, Extended Leather, Carbon Leather, 6-MT, 19" Style 220M Wheels, EDC, EPS, ZP2, ZCV, ZCW. ED 29 Apr '11. PCD Re-delivery July 27.






Last edited by Mace14; 04-16-2011 at 05:12 PM.
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  #35  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:14 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by Mace14 View Post
... they can mark up the lease origination fee and money factor. Standard origination fee is $725 but they can legally bump it up (I think they can add as much as $200). For the MF, a typical and fair markup might be .000250. I'd argue about either of these markups and would walk for upping the origination fee or upping the MF by more than .000250.
The origination fee is $725 and we're paying it up front. I need to find out what money factor he's using. I think he said something about 3.1% interest for the lease but I'm not sure how that translates into a money factor.. Thanks.
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  #36  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:30 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
The origination fee is $725 and we're paying it up front. I need to find out what money factor he's using. I think he said something about 3.1% interest for the lease but I'm not sure how that translates into a money factor.. Thanks.
Well, base rate is .00090 which equals 2.16%. 3.1% would be the equivalent of a .0013 MF so they're bumping you by .0004 that your CA should have told you about. BTW, that's about $50 a month difference in payment.
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YESTERDAY: '08 335i Coupe, Space Gray, Coral Red, Gray Poplar, 6-MT, ED 10 May '08.
TODAY: '11 M3 Convertible, Mineral White, Fox Red, Extended Leather, Carbon Leather, 6-MT, 19" Style 220M Wheels, EDC, EPS, ZP2, ZCV, ZCW. ED 29 Apr '11. PCD Re-delivery July 27.






Last edited by Mace14; 04-16-2011 at 05:35 PM.
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  #37  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:35 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Well, base rate is .00090 which equals 2.16%. 3.1% would be the equivalent of a .0013 MF so they're bumping you by .0004 which isn't bad but your CA should have told you.
Thanks much for that insight; it sounds as if even with the $1500 over invoice I'm giving him, this should be around $60/month cheaper. That's real money, as pretty soon it will be able to pay for an extra five gallons of premium gas, lol.
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  #38  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:38 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Thanks much for that insight; it sounds as if even with the $1500 over invoice I'm giving him, this should be around $60/month cheaper. That's real money, as pretty soon it will be able to pay for an extra five gallons of premium gas, lol.
So, in a few minutes we've saved you about $80 a month with the MF and dealer markup.
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TODAY: '11 M3 Convertible, Mineral White, Fox Red, Extended Leather, Carbon Leather, 6-MT, 19" Style 220M Wheels, EDC, EPS, ZP2, ZCV, ZCW. ED 29 Apr '11. PCD Re-delivery July 27.





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  #39  
Old 04-16-2011, 05:42 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by Mace14 View Post
So, in a few minutes we've saved you about $80 a month with the MF and dealer markup.
Well, I'll see what this salesguy comes back with, but if it isn't something close to that, I will be consulting his boss. The good thing is that this dealership is owned by BMW itself, so hopefully, they'll feel some sense of responsibility here.
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  #40  
Old 04-16-2011, 07:08 PM
ksoze ksoze is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Well, I'll see what this salesguy comes back with, but if it isn't something close to that, I will be consulting his boss. The good thing is that this dealership is owned by BMW itself, so hopefully, they'll feel some sense of responsibility here.
By my lease calculations, that E93 as you described at that payment is actually about $400 over invoice with no MF mark-up and the correct residual - not a bad deal at all.

By also putting down max security deposits ($5,600), you could get to $793 a month under the same pricing terms ($400 over invoice).
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  #41  
Old 04-16-2011, 07:12 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
By my lease calculations, that E93 as you described at that payment is actually about $400 over invoice with no MF mark-up and the correct residual - not a bad deal at all.
Then how are guys getting the same or considerably lower prices for cars with MUCH higher MSRPs? Thanks.
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  #42  
Old 04-16-2011, 07:26 PM
ksoze ksoze is offline
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Originally Posted by AKAGodSent View Post
What was the MSRP on your car? Where did you order it from? The car I'm waiting to pick up has MW Metallic, Cold Weather, PP2, M-DCT, 19" wheels, PDC, Nav, and enhanced premium sound, and for 10k miles/year with NY tax I'm paying slightly less than 800 (nothing down). And that's without MSDs.
By my math, that E92 without MSD"s would have to be about $1,000 under invoice for a payment under $800 with all rolled in the lease. You referred later that you did use MSD's on a "current" car, if this one, then an invoice deal can get below $800 with 7 deposits.
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  #43  
Old 04-16-2011, 07:30 PM
ksoze ksoze is offline
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Then how are guys getting the same or considerably lower prices for cars with MUCH higher MSRPs? Thanks.
They may not be. Don't forget you also have an E93, which is over $8,500 more in base price.

Some are putting more money down, some have very different state tax structures and how it works in a lease. Run the numbers in a lease calculator and see for yourself (http://www.leaseguide.com/calc.htm).

All the numbers are there to input - .0009 MF, 64% residual and your numbers.

Last edited by ksoze; 04-16-2011 at 07:31 PM.
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  #44  
Old 04-16-2011, 07:40 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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All the numbers are there to input - .0009 MF, 64% residual and your numbers.
He emailed me back that he used a money factor of .00130, so I'm guessing that accounts for the discrepancy. I'm a bit upset at this, as I was told that I was getting the lowest possible lease rate. I've been buying new cars (on and off-- living in NYC I'd been car-less for the last few years) for almost 30 years now, and I can see that some things never change. In fact, they are probably unchanged from when "cars" were "horses," lol.
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  #45  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
Then how are guys getting the same or considerably lower prices for cars with MUCH higher MSRPs? Thanks.
One of the differences is probably that those "guys" (many of whom are actually "gals") really understand leasing. Leasing is a black art - if you do not take the time to do your homework (and the fact that you are not independently running numbers on your own lease calculator would seem to indicate you aren't), you are setting yourself up to pay more than you should.

In this respect, buying or leasing a car is capitalism at its finest. A well educated consumer will drive a great deal, a less-educated one will pay more - sometimes a whole bunch more. The dealer has no moral obligation to educate you, nor to get you into a car at the lowest possible cost.

The same thing often happens when you purchase. Folks may think they are savvy negotiators and strike a great price on the purchase, only to belatedly realize they got hosed on their trade-in.

If you spend a couple hours on the Ask-a-Dealer forum, and learn how MSD's work and how to use a lease calculator, you will be much more likely to negotiate one of those low-markup leases you admire (and walk away from the really stinky deals).
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  #46  
Old 04-16-2011, 09:24 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
He emailed me back that he used a money factor of .00130, so I'm guessing that accounts for the discrepancy. I'm a bit upset at this, as I was told that I was getting the lowest possible lease rate. I've been buying new cars (on and off-- living in NYC I'd been car-less for the last few years) for almost 30 years now, and I can see that some things never change. In fact, they are probably unchanged from when "cars" were "horses," lol.
I recommend you go back to the dealer and re-negotiate since he apparently misled you on the MF since .00090 is buy rate (i.e., the "best" rate), not .00130 and the "non-refundable $2,500 depost" is BS.

Here's what I'd offer:
--$500 over invoice
--.0009 MF
--put down the 7 additional MSD at closing for a .00041 MF (remember, you get all the additional MSD's back at the end of the lease).

That would take your payments down from $850 to about $708 and that is a good deal and you're cooking with gas. What you have right now isn't very good. Also, I'd insist on an immediate refund of $2,000 of your security deposit and make it clear that the remaining $500 is, in fact, fully refundable. There is absolutely nothing unusual about your car at all.

If the dealer refuses then demand your deposit back (sue if they refuse) and order through a different dealer or a board sponsor.

Just the way I'd deal with this.
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YESTERDAY: '08 335i Coupe, Space Gray, Coral Red, Gray Poplar, 6-MT, ED 10 May '08.
TODAY: '11 M3 Convertible, Mineral White, Fox Red, Extended Leather, Carbon Leather, 6-MT, 19" Style 220M Wheels, EDC, EPS, ZP2, ZCV, ZCW. ED 29 Apr '11. PCD Re-delivery July 27.






Last edited by Mace14; 04-16-2011 at 09:26 PM.
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  #47  
Old 04-16-2011, 10:28 PM
AKAGodSent AKAGodSent is offline
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Originally Posted by Mace14 View Post
--put down the 7 additional MSD at closing for a .00041 MF (remember, you get all the additional MSD's back at the end of the lease).
He can't do MSDs, he's getting it from a NY dealer. He has to go to NJ to get that done. Although he can do it through a 'middle man' in NY. They are all over the place, and they're more reliable than dealers.
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  #48  
Old 04-16-2011, 10:31 PM
AKAGodSent AKAGodSent is offline
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Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
By my math, that E92 without MSD"s would have to be about $1,000 under invoice for a payment under $800 with all rolled in the lease. You referred later that you did use MSD's on a "current" car, if this one, then an invoice deal can get below $800 with 7 deposits.
It's an E93. I don't know the details of the deal, nor does it much matter since no one else I've spoken to can match it. I did not do MSDs on the M3 but I did get loyalty since I'm coming out of a lease next month. I trust the guys I'm dealing with since I, and friends of mine, have leased from them before and have yet to experience any problems or find deals from others that beat what they offer.
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  #49  
Old 04-17-2011, 06:15 AM
Chorse4D Chorse4D is offline
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Ordered a M3 convert with a msrp of 80500 and with nothing down the down payment was 3900 and 771 per month for 12000 miles a year 36 months. If anyone is paying in the rights your getting ripped off I think.
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  #50  
Old 04-17-2011, 06:17 AM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Leasing is a black art - if you do not take the time to do your homework (and the fact that you are not independently running numbers on your own lease calculator would seem to indicate you aren't), you are setting yourself up to pay more than you should. In this respect, buying or leasing a car is capitalism at its finest. A well educated consumer will drive a great deal, a less-educated one will pay more - sometimes a whole bunch more. The dealer has no moral obligation to educate you, nor to get you into a car at the lowest possible cost..
Well, yes and no. I think that the dealer has a moral obligation not to lie to the customer when he says he's calculating the lease based on the lowest possible interest rate, so I suppose that my lack of homework here revolves around not having found out in advance what that rate really was. When he told me it was 3.1% I ran the numbers in my head-- I took 3.1% x the $69,900 negotiated price of the car and added that to the total amount of depreciation (i.e., $69,000 less the residual) and then divided that sum by 36 and came up with roughly what he was charging me. The difference is that apparently he could have charged me 2.1% and that would have been the difference we're discussing here.

What bothers me is that I wasn't trying to squeeze the last nickel out of the guy, as I told him right up front that everyone's got to make a living, and I'd pay him $1500 over Edmund's. I guess, though, that feeling wasn't mutual. Also, he showed me their $500 combined dealership MACO fee and "training fee" and pointed out that I was "really" pricing the car at $1000 over invoice and not $1500 because I was refusing to pay them. (I have no interest in paying some car dealer's advertising and training costs, because they're really not my problem.)

Okay, thanks to everyone for your advice here; this is really a terrific forum!

Last edited by logicalthought; 04-17-2011 at 06:19 AM.
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