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E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)
4th generation E90 M3 sedan, E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible. The last of the naturally aspirated M3s, powered by a 4.0 liter V8 making 414hp and 295 lb-ft of torque.

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  #101  
Old 06-10-2011, 10:13 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Last edited by beden1; 06-10-2011 at 10:17 PM.
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  #102  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:09 AM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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>>Whether anyone likes my opinions of the 335is vert versus the M3 vert or not, it is still my experienced opinion...<<

I don't doubt your opinion, but you must be VERY experienced! The reason I say that is that the weight distribution of both cars rounds off to an identical 47-53, so you're essentially only feeling an extra 50 pounds or so over the front wheels (which is where you'd notice the steering difference). I'd guess that to be able to sense that on a public road requires a LOT of track-related seat time (which you may have gotten in your Z06). Did you drive both the 335is and the M3 under identical conditions and had neither one of them been beaten up worse than the other by a bunch of potholes?

When I was extremely active on the track (lots of Porsche club stuff back in the early-to-mid 90s,) I too would have probably been able to sense an extra 50 pounds over the front end of an otherwise identical car, but I don't know where in the New York area I'd be able to push things enough to find that out on an open public road!
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  #103  
Old 06-11-2011, 04:38 AM
neurom neurom is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 335IS View Post
The residual value of the M3 wipes away any MF advantage though, a similarly equipped M3 would have been about $125-150 more per month for me.

Maybe your situation and mine are apples to oranges, but even with the current residuals of 60% for 12/36 on the M3 and 61% on the 335is, a difference of only 1%, similarly equipped I come ahead by $10-20 with the M3 (with ED and 7 MSD's, have not done a calculation for US).
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  #104  
Old 06-12-2011, 08:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by neurom View Post
Maybe your situation and mine are apples to oranges, but even with the current residuals of 60% for 12/36 on the M3 and 61% on the 335is, a difference of only 1%, similarly equipped I come ahead by $10-20 with the M3 (with ED and 7 MSD's, have not done a calculation for US).
The $100+ difference was on an M3 coupe. The M3 sedan would probably be about half that. I certainly haven't come across any config where I'd come out ahead in an M3, or even close to that. If you are getting that kind of deal though - go for it!
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  #105  
Old 06-12-2011, 10:41 AM
neurom neurom is offline
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This is for a convertible, so we are indeed talking apples to oranges. The MF is 0.00090 for the vert, which is the second lowest MF for any BMW with the exception of the X6 active hybrid. M3 sedan and coupes MF are much higher and I understand why your difference. I was surprised, but ended up about even with M3 vs is, so for me it was easy, as I wanted to have the option of an adjustable suspension and love the M3 engine, which I trust more than the 335. Weight, lat acceleration, etc are not issues for me, as I am not going to track it.

I think part of the reason is that the arguments that the M3 vert does not provide much more than a 335is vert are valid, as the weight with of the hardtop in the vert affects its dynamics. Although I do not agree with this argument, I see its validity and I am glad it is being made because they have likely resulted in incentives to move the M3 vert.

Last edited by neurom; 06-12-2011 at 10:44 AM.
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  #106  
Old 06-12-2011, 01:29 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
>>Whether anyone likes my opinions of the 335is vert versus the M3 vert or not, it is still my experienced opinion...<<

I don't doubt your opinion, but you must be VERY experienced! The reason I say that is that the weight distribution of both cars rounds off to an identical 47-53, so you're essentially only feeling an extra 50 pounds or so over the front wheels (which is where you'd notice the steering difference). I'd guess that to be able to sense that on a public road requires a LOT of track-related seat time (which you may have gotten in your Z06). Did you drive both the 335is and the M3 under identical conditions and had neither one of them been beaten up worse than the other by a bunch of potholes?

When I was extremely active on the track (lots of Porsche club stuff back in the early-to-mid 90s,) I too would have probably been able to sense an extra 50 pounds over the front end of an otherwise identical car, but I don't know where in the New York area I'd be able to push things enough to find that out on an open public road!
You have the same color combo as was my '08 M3 vert and is our '11 M3 sedan!

I actually thought the 335is was lighter than the M3 because it feels that way when having some fun cornering hard on the back roads. It just feels better balanced, even though your numbers show this not to be the case.

I bought the '08 M3 vert used CPO with 6,800 miles on the odometer and found out it had been in an accident, where the dealer bought it back after 5 weeks of ownership. Maybe the car was not repaired properly, but, it seemed to drive fine.

My biggest gripe with this car with the DCT, was that it bogged down going up hills, particularly if I was not in M Drive. I don't have that issue with the 335is, even in the normal drive mode (non-sport). And, as I said, the M3 plowed through corners where my 335is does not to any bothersome degree.

Also, I found myself trying to get the right M Drive settings for most situations where I drove it mostly for fun on the back roads. In the 5 weeks of driving mostly everyday to relax, I'm not sure I ever found the setting that felt that OK. In the 335is with the DCT, I just have to press the sport button and move the shifter to the left, and I get a near perfect sport driving setting (there are no other options like in M Drive).

I think I would have liked the M3 vert much better with a manual transmission. My son's '11 M3 sedan has an MT and I don't have the same issues with his car, because I'm able to be more in control and compensate for things like torque issues at slower speeds.
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  #107  
Old 06-12-2011, 03:38 PM
status38 status38 is offline
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Maybe the gobs of torque down low in the 335is make it "feel" lighter than the M on street roads? Afterall there is a saying, Horsepower is how hard you hit the brick wall, Torque is how much of the wall you bring with you, the 'verts definitely have a few extra bricks!

The data seems to indicate the M3 should be more nimble than the 335is but this is probably keeping the M3 in 4-5K+ RPMs, where the 335is you get to be lazy.
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  #108  
Old 06-12-2011, 03:57 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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>>I think I would have liked the M3 vert much better with a manual transmission. My son's '11 M3 sedan has an MT and I don't have the same issues with his car, because I'm able to be more in control and compensate for things like torque issues at slower speeds.<<

Yeah, mine's a 6-speed and maybe that does make a difference. Today was my third day in the car (I don't have time to use it during the week) and I finally was able to push it a bit (cornering-wise) on some NJ Turnpike on-ramps and off-ramps, and with the firmest suspension setting it cornered as if it was on rails and didn't seem to push at all. That said, this was 7/10th driving and not 8/10th, 9/10th or 10/10th, so it's still possible that it could push a bit at the limits. In fact, I'd be surprised if it didn't, as pretty much all street cars are deliberately designed with a bit of understeer built into them because the typical driver is going to lift mid-corner when he overdoes it, and the last thing BMW wants is to be sued by the survivors of a $2 million/year investment banker whose wallet was bigger than his driving skills.

It's going to take me a while to build up to 9/10th and really find out just how much push there is, because a highway on ramp is the only public road on which I feel okay doing that and they aren't really long enough to give me all that much seat time, lol. (I think my track days are behind me, as I eventually started to find myself a bit bored and thus losing focus after a couple of laps, and that's when it's time to park it.)

I think I'm most impressed with the car's steady-state cornering capability-- in turns of skidpad-style g-forces, it feels significantly better than my old '91 911 C2 felt on street tires (despite that car's modified Eibach & Koni suspension), and WORLDS better than my '98 M3 sedan or 2002 WRX. The one thing I CAN'T call this car, though, is "tossable"-- i.e., it's no Boxster S. Instead, it's a beautifully built four-seat GT with a vicious V-8 in it, and perhaps most importantly, the top goes down! In fact, it's the first car I've owned since my '87 Mustang GT convertible that makes me sad when I've gotten to wherever it is I'm going, because that means I have to turn it off and get out of it.

Last edited by logicalthought; 06-12-2011 at 03:58 PM.
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  #109  
Old 06-12-2011, 06:37 PM
Mace14 Mace14 is offline
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I find the discussion of the E93M3 "pushing" to be interesting. I noticed no understeer at all with mine although I didn't get to push it as hard as I would have liked due to the wife performance limiter installed in the right seat. That said, I'm not sure why either the iS or M3 would have a tendancy to understeer given that the weight distribution isn't as balanced as the E90/92 and is biased to the rear due to the top. If anything, I'd expect the car to tend to be loose and oversteer with that distribution. Could it be that BMW has overcompensated for the rearward weight distribution? I guess a good question is if the suspension tuning is different for the convertible than the coupe?
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  #110  
Old 06-12-2011, 09:39 PM
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Someone sent me a PM asking my opinion about whether he should take advantage of a very good deal to trade his 335is for an M3. I decided to post my answer here as well, without divulging the person's identity who asked for advice:

It really depends on you. Have you driven the M3 to experience how it feels? It's like when I first test drove my '09 ZO6 before buying. It only took me 5 miles before I knew I had to have it.

I'm also not sure which version of the M3 you are considering? I have the convertible 335is with DCT and had a convertible M3 with DCT.

What I like about the 335is: the sound of the exhaust with the top down; the torque curve is more useful on back winding and mountain roads (with DCT); the DCT sport setting is equal to the best non-track/street setting in the M Drive; I feel the car handles better on hard cornering (with DCT); it's cheaper and gets better gas mileage; the insurance is cheaper; the extended warranty program is about half the cost as compared to the M3.

What I like about the M3: the side intakes on the front fenders; the rear tail pipes, although, I don't like being able to see the mufflers; I really don't like the hood bump but do like the hood scoops; the M Drive features are fun to play with, although it's tough to get the right setting for the each changing circumstance; the adjustable shocks; the wider tires and profile; wheel options; and the upgraded interior leather options. I really prefer a NA 8 cylinder engine over turbos, and the M3 engine is fantastic at higher RPMs. I just wish it had the power on demand at all RPMs as does my ZO6.

The M3 costs more and with the convertible, I think the 335is will have a better resale value.

I think the convertible 335is is a better value than the M3 vert, and, I really like my 335is for the reasons stated.

But, if I were to get a coupe or sedan, I would get the M3 over the 335is without question, with a manual transmission.

The M3 coupe and sedan, IMO, are one of the best all-round cars ever built, and is a car that I would keep for many years (like I will my ZO6).

The M3 convertible is an excellent car as well, and I don't want to give the impression that it is not. If I had one again however, I'd want to try and get the exhaust sound to be as addictive as the one on my 335is, and, I would definitely get a manual transmission.

PS: I forgot to mention one very important feature on the M3. It is like driving two different cars with and without the M Drive engaged (Dr Jekle and Mr. Hyde). Without M Drive, the car feels like a good commuter car. It's tame, smooth riding, and very comfortable. With the M Drive engaged at the sport settings, the car becomes like an animal eager to eat up the roads. I think this is what makes the M3 such a great car.
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Last edited by beden1; 06-12-2011 at 09:58 PM.
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  #111  
Old 06-13-2011, 02:46 AM
neurom neurom is offline
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His choice is to trade for an M3. If he already has an is, I think the difference is not worth what he will lose in the trade after a short ownership. Given current leasing MF and residuals on M3 vert vs 335is, I would say at this time for lease, the M3 is a better value.
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  #112  
Old 06-16-2011, 02:05 AM
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enigma enigma is offline
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Your mumbo-jumbo reasoning for the inconsistent recommendation is still baffling, but that's your opinion and I gotta give credit for sticking to it however ridiculous it sounds.



Quote:
Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
Someone sent me a PM asking my opinion about whether he should take advantage of a very good deal to trade his 335is for an M3. I decided to post my answer here as well, without divulging the person's identity who asked for advice:

It really depends on you. Have you driven the M3 to experience how it feels? It's like when I first test drove my '09 ZO6 before buying. It only took me 5 miles before I knew I had to have it.

I'm also not sure which version of the M3 you are considering? I have the convertible 335is with DCT and had a convertible M3 with DCT.

What I like about the 335is: the sound of the exhaust with the top down; the torque curve is more useful on back winding and mountain roads (with DCT); the DCT sport setting is equal to the best non-track/street setting in the M Drive; I feel the car handles better on hard cornering (with DCT); it's cheaper and gets better gas mileage; the insurance is cheaper; the extended warranty program is about half the cost as compared to the M3.

What I like about the M3: the side intakes on the front fenders; the rear tail pipes, although, I don't like being able to see the mufflers; I really don't like the hood bump but do like the hood scoops; the M Drive features are fun to play with, although it's tough to get the right setting for the each changing circumstance; the adjustable shocks; the wider tires and profile; wheel options; and the upgraded interior leather options. I really prefer a NA 8 cylinder engine over turbos, and the M3 engine is fantastic at higher RPMs. I just wish it had the power on demand at all RPMs as does my ZO6.

The M3 costs more and with the convertible, I think the 335is will have a better resale value.

I think the convertible 335is is a better value than the M3 vert, and, I really like my 335is for the reasons stated.

But, if I were to get a coupe or sedan, I would get the M3 over the 335is without question, with a manual transmission.

The M3 coupe and sedan, IMO, are one of the best all-round cars ever built, and is a car that I would keep for many years (like I will my ZO6).

The M3 convertible is an excellent car as well, and I don't want to give the impression that it is not. If I had one again however, I'd want to try and get the exhaust sound to be as addictive as the one on my 335is, and, I would definitely get a manual transmission.

PS: I forgot to mention one very important feature on the M3. It is like driving two different cars with and without the M Drive engaged (Dr Jekle and Mr. Hyde). Without M Drive, the car feels like a good commuter car. It's tame, smooth riding, and very comfortable. With the M Drive engaged at the sport settings, the car becomes like an animal eager to eat up the roads. I think this is what makes the M3 such a great car.
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  #113  
Old 06-16-2011, 07:01 AM
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Your mumbo-jumbo reasoning for the inconsistent recommendation is still baffling, but that's your opinion and I gotta give credit for sticking to it however ridiculous it sounds.
I'm not sure that I agree with your statement of "mumbo-jumbo reasoning, but I appreciate your opinion. From a pure fun driving experience, the cars are very close and opinions can only be subjective. That's no doubt why your own perspective is seemingly close minded.
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  #114  
Old 06-16-2011, 07:39 AM
Sleestak Sleestak is offline
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LOL enigma, you're funny!
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  #115  
Old 08-10-2012, 11:16 AM
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My take on the 335is vs M3 debate

I just went through this conundrum of the M3 versus 335 IS. I thought about this a lot, test drove both cars multiple times over 3 months. The money was not an issue for me. before I test drove the M3 I was enamored by its reputation and wanted to buy it, and fall in love with it, but in the end I decided to go for the 335is. Here's why:

1. When you drive a powerful sports car you always want to feel that the slightest movement of the right foot will produce instant neck snapping acceleration irrespective of gear and revs. The 335is does exactly that, and while the M3 does not. My 1st test drive of the M3 was tragically underwhelming. At slow speeds and low revs the car simply did not pull . In subsequent test drives I really had to rev the engine up to feel the power, the whole car were shaking, and the engine was screaming. It felt like hard work for both myself and the car, rather than the effortless silky smooth explosion of torque from the 335is.

2. I had an issue with the hood scoop and overly muscular appearance of the M3. While it is certainly true that many drivers will buy the M3 purely for it's performance, the amount of man jewellery on the M3 will also attract midlife crisis buyers who are looking more for an image rather than a driving experience. The hood scoop on the M3 was not part of the original design of the car, it was forced in at a later stage to make room for a larger engine which could meet the 400+ horsepower target set for the M3. No other BMW has a hood scoop as far as I'm aware. This is a personal choice, but in my opinion, the hood scoop and air vents are vulgar. The scoop reminds me of a shrivelled penis and the vents of the shrivelled testicles of the 50-year-old bankers who will purchase this car so they can brag about it's horsepower numbers without ever driving it like it should be. The 335is on the other hand is understated. A person who buys the 335is buys it purely for the driving experience, because visually the car is not showy and very different from the 335i.

3. A clear disadvantage of the 335is is that it lacks the heritage and prestige attached with the M label. It should be noted that BMW is now going to come out with 335i M and the 135i M (already released in Europe) which will have the M label on the back but will not be the M3 and the M1. So the M label is going to get diluted a lot over the next 1-2 years. Irrespective, it is certainly a disadvantage of the 335is over the M3.

5. The exhaust note on the 335is is simply beautiful. It has this low pitched hum when idle, and produces a beautiful note under acceleration, which screams to the driver " yes, yes, drive me harder this is so much fun". The M3 produces a much louder higher pitched whine, which resembles a painful shriek.

4. While this is a minor consideration when purchasing a performance car, the aluminium trim on the 335is is simply beautiful.

We can argue about 0 to 60 times and horsepower numbers, but at the end of the day numbers are mearly numbers. What really matters is how the car engages and satisfies the individual driver. To me the 335is combination of understated refinement and seemingly endless power simply produced a more entertaining driving experience than the track tuned M3.
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  #116  
Old 08-10-2012, 03:59 PM
kscarrol kscarrol is offline
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Wow, talk about digging up an old thread! As long as you are happy with your decision, that's all that matters... And you saved THE key issue for your last sentence, "To me...". That applies to every M3 driver who loves their car and every 335 driver who loves their car. Enjoy the car, the 335 is an awesome ride!
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  #117  
Old 08-10-2012, 05:41 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Originally Posted by dcbooker View Post
..... The scoop reminds me of a shrivelled penis and the vents of the shrivelled testicles of the 50-year-old bankers who will purchase this car so they can brag about it's horsepower numbers without ever driving it like it should be.....

So you quote how “the scoop,” in your genius
“reminds you of a shriveled penis”
Dude this car site’s not college
Yet you boast carnal knowledge.
Seems a bit there obsessed, jus’ between us.

When you castigate referencing balls
And of Mid-Century Banker recalls,
Brings to mind, my dear gent,
Just how much time you’ve spent
in the bank wash-room peering up stalls.

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Last edited by Capobranco; 08-10-2012 at 09:12 PM.
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  #118  
Old 08-10-2012, 05:57 PM
BMNewbie BMNewbie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kscarrol View Post
Wow, talk about digging up an old thread! As long as you are happy with your decision, that's all that matters... And you saved THE key issue for your last sentence, "To me...". That applies to every M3 driver who loves their car and every 335 driver who loves their car. Enjoy the car, the 335 is an awesome ride!
Could not agree more.

I had a 2011 E92 335i M-Sport with DCT and recently traded it for an 2012 E92 M3. My reasons for doing it was down to taking the M3 out for a long drive around different roads and to me the car just felt more settled and planted on the road.

On some windy bits, I just felt more confident in pushing the car a bit further than the 335.

The 335 was a great car and I have fond memories of it, but, to me, I just preferred the way the M3 felt when I drove it.

Just my personal opinion.
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  #119  
Old 08-11-2012, 05:58 PM
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car-fan car-fan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
So you quote how “the scoop,” in your genius
“reminds you of a shriveled penis”
Dude this car site’s not college
Yet you boast carnal knowledge.
Seems a bit there obsessed, jus’ between us.

When you castigate referencing balls
And of Mid-Century Banker recalls,
Brings to mind, my dear gent,
Just how much time you’ve spent
in the bank wash-room peering up stalls.

Welcome to Bimmerfest
Capo excuse me but all that comes to mind with this person is WTF?

Your eloquent response is much more than I would ever be able to conjure up - for "DCBooger"
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  #120  
Old 08-12-2012, 01:03 PM
XXX555 XXX555 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dcbooker View Post
I just went through this conundrum of the M3 versus 335 IS. I thought about this a lot, test drove both cars multiple times over 3 months. The money was not an issue for me. before I test drove the M3 I was enamored by its reputation and wanted to buy it, and fall in love with it, but in the end I decided to go for the 335is. Here's why:

1. When you drive a powerful sports car you always want to feel that the slightest movement of the right foot will produce instant neck snapping acceleration irrespective of gear and revs. The 335is does exactly that, and while the M3 does not. My 1st test drive of the M3 was tragically underwhelming. At slow speeds and low revs the car simply did not pull . In subsequent test drives I really had to rev the engine up to feel the power, the whole car were shaking, and the engine was screaming. It felt like hard work for both myself and the car, rather than the effortless silky smooth explosion of torque from the 335is.

2. I had an issue with the hood scoop and overly muscular appearance of the M3. While it is certainly true that many drivers will buy the M3 purely for it's performance, the amount of man jewellery on the M3 will also attract midlife crisis buyers who are looking more for an image rather than a driving experience. The hood scoop on the M3 was not part of the original design of the car, it was forced in at a later stage to make room for a larger engine which could meet the 400+ horsepower target set for the M3. No other BMW has a hood scoop as far as I'm aware. This is a personal choice, but in my opinion, the hood scoop and air vents are vulgar. The scoop reminds me of a shrivelled penis and the vents of the shrivelled testicles of the 50-year-old bankers who will purchase this car so they can brag about it's horsepower numbers without ever driving it like it should be. The 335is on the other hand is understated. A person who buys the 335is buys it purely for the driving experience, because visually the car is not showy and very different from the 335i.

3. A clear disadvantage of the 335is is that it lacks the heritage and prestige attached with the M label. It should be noted that BMW is now going to come out with 335i M and the 135i M (already released in Europe) which will have the M label on the back but will not be the M3 and the M1. So the M label is going to get diluted a lot over the next 1-2 years. Irrespective, it is certainly a disadvantage of the 335is over the M3.

5. The exhaust note on the 335is is simply beautiful. It has this low pitched hum when idle, and produces a beautiful note under acceleration, which screams to the driver " yes, yes, drive me harder this is so much fun". The M3 produces a much louder higher pitched whine, which resembles a painful shriek.

4. While this is a minor consideration when purchasing a performance car, the aluminium trim on the 335is is simply beautiful.

We can argue about 0 to 60 times and horsepower numbers, but at the end of the day numbers are mearly numbers. What really matters is how the car engages and satisfies the individual driver. To me the 335is combination of understated refinement and seemingly endless power simply produced a more entertaining driving experience than the track tuned M3.
Same boat about money. Went oposite way with the M3. Never think about the IS or justifying my purchase. Good Luck in any case.
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  #121  
Old 08-12-2012, 05:30 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BMNewbie View Post
Could not agree more.

I had a 2011 E92 335i M-Sport with DCT and recently traded it for an 2012 E92 M3. My reasons for doing it was down to taking the M3 out for a long drive around different roads and to me the car just felt more settled and planted on the road.

On some windy bits, I just felt more confident in pushing the car a bit further than the 335.

The 335 was a great car and I have fond memories of it, but, to me, I just preferred the way the M3 felt when I drove it.

Just my personal opinion.
I thought the DCT was only offered on the M3, 335is and 1M?
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  #122  
Old 08-12-2012, 05:57 PM
BMNewbie BMNewbie is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I thought the DCT was only offered on the M3, 335is and 1M?
Hi Beden1,

In Australia the E92/93 335i comes only in M-Sport spec with DCT as an option over manual. Steptronic is not available as an option.
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  #123  
Old 08-12-2012, 09:06 PM
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beden1 beden1 is offline
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Hi Beden1,

In Australia the E92/93 335i comes only in M-Sport spec with DCT as an option over manual. Steptronic is not available as an option.
I guess the 2013 3 Series models will start using the same badging as you are describing for the "M-Sport models and are doing away with the "is" badge.

Australia is leading the way!
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  #124  
Old 08-13-2012, 01:14 AM
BMNewbie BMNewbie is offline
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Originally Posted by beden1 View Post
I guess the 2013 3 Series models will start using the same badging as you are describing for the "M-Sport models and are doing away with the "is" badge.

Australia is leading the way!
Except in terms of pricing.....

The thing is Australia does have its own naming scheme and model specification. For example, the "IS" was never imported here (actually, do not not if it was sold anywhere else except for the US) and there was a special edition "M3 Pure" with blacked out grills and rims but removed some items that came standard with the normal M3.

Let's see what they do with the new 3 series M-Sport packages.
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Last edited by BMNewbie; 08-13-2012 at 02:48 AM.
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  #125  
Old 02-20-2013, 12:40 PM
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We decided to have the best of both worlds mine 2011 SG M3 ZCP. Hers 2013 TS 335IS love them both.
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