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E34 (1989 - 1995)

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  #226  
Old 12-28-2012, 07:47 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
Hello Mr. Roberto!!

I'm back My progress has not been progressed since our last conversation. You mention the batterys fusible link, could this be my problem.

To recap:
I bought a new siver DME from Bavarian for my car, no change
My car cranks, gets spark, will not start.
Is it possible that I need a crank case sensor?
Let me throw my hat in the ring here. Have you performed the stomp test to check for any fault codes? If not, you need to do so. How did you confirm you have spark? If you do indeed have spark, then it is highly unlikely to be the CPS (if not darn near impossible) or DME.

If you have spark and it will crank over, then you have a fuel delivery problem. Check in this order (easiest/cheapest to most difficult/most expensive):

Fuel pump fuse
Fuel pump relay
fuel filter
fuel pump
fuel pump regulator

One quick easy way to help rule out electrical problems and rule in a fuel delivery problem is to squirt some starting fluid into the air box (about 2-3 seconds) and then try to crank the car. It is preferable to squirt the starting fluid in at the same time that someone is trying to crank the car. This, of course, takes two people.

If the car fires up, then you have confirmed that it is a fuel delivery issue. However, once you get it to crank, don't keep running it on the starting fluid. It is very hard on the engine. If it does crank, then check the above and reference the Bentely manual on how to troubleshoot the fuel system.

Hope this helps some.
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It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #227  
Old 12-28-2012, 07:52 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Steve, perhaps you could consider ammending your thread's title from " EWS Delete / Bypass and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read " to " EWS Delete / Bypass 2-STAGE fix and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read ' or "2-STAGE EWS Delete / Bypass and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read" or something like that, to further suppress the possibility of confusion especially among noobs already stressed out by a problem. This is relevant considering that it is one of the most widely googled threads on the fest, despite not being a sticky.


rgds,
Roberto
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  #228  
Old 12-28-2012, 07:57 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
Hello Mr. Roberto!!

I'm back My progress has not been progressed since our last conversation. You mention the batterys fusible link, could this be my problem.

To recap:
I bought a new siver DME from Bavarian for my car, no change
My car cranks, gets spark, will not start.
Is it possible that I need a crank case sensor?
If your car gets spark, then your cps (crankshaft position sensor) is working fine. If it cranks, that means your fusible link, battery and starter is also working fine. Actually, if you are getting spark, that means your EWS system is not the problem here. The ecu will not initiate spark signals to the coils unless it is authenticated or unless it does not require an EWS authentication to begin with (the ews delete referred to in this thread).

I assume you have ruled out fuel delivery as a problem, and I am assuming that your fuel filter is in good shape. Most E34 owners who intend to keep their car will change out the fuel pump and the fuel pump's relay. BMW did not make these devices to last 15-20 years without issues, and when they die, they usually do so without warning, and you have a no start issue. The two devices mentioned here will cost you under $150 shipped together for OEM stuff (only buy OEM for these)....prices have really come down over the years. Labour is 0 for swopping out the fuel relay and takes between 30-60 minutes for a professional, when it comes to your fuel pump itself.

Please google and download the Bentley manual relevant to your car. I've attached the troubleshooting tables from mine here, they are largely cross-model affairs, but you should still get your own manual. And you must definitely take this matter to the right forums for a speedy focused resolution.
Attached Files
File Type: pdf E34 Troubleshooting Tables Searchable.pdf (1.04 MB, 68 views)

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 12-28-2012 at 08:09 PM.
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  #229  
Old 12-28-2012, 08:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Steve, perhaps you could consider ammending your thread's title from " EWS Delete / Bypass and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read " to " EWS Delete / Bypass 2-STAGE fix and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read ' or "2-STAGE EWS Delete / Bypass and no-start problem finally solved - VERY LONG read" or something like that, to further suppress the possibility of confusion especially among noobs already stressed out by a problem. This is relevant considering that it is one of the most widely googled threads on the fest, despite not being a sticky.


rgds,
Roberto
It is already confusing enough. I'm going to leave it as it is.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #230  
Old 12-29-2012, 02:50 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Thanks for all the insight, looks like I need to hit the repair manual again.
Just a reminder that I have a silver dme stock on a 4cyl car built in March of 95. I sure wish I had gotten the V6 seems a little bit easier to deal with lol...

Again thanks for taking all the time to share your knowledge
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  #231  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:14 AM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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I had some help tonight so I went out to tackle the BMW once more.

Please allow me to recap.
I have a 4cly E36 made in March of 1995 with 10K miles, my symptoms started with a intermit starting to a complete "no crank" and yes I had dash lights, windows work, headlights work and taillights work.

So I:
Had a new key made at BMW- (still no crank)
Did EWSII bypass as instructed (THE CAR WILL Crank!!) but no start
Tested CPS and passed at 1.25 ohms across pins 1 and 2
Bypassed clutch by combining the blue and brown wires together.
Bought a known good DME from Bavarian (silver) as a manufacture replacement
Bought a new Optima Yellow top battery
Made jumper for fuel pump relay and confirmed pressure
Removed resistor ring from around key hole

Ok, so after all this I still have confirmed no spark while car is cranking.
I have good battery power, I can hear a clicking as when I turn over the key. I don't think the fuel pump is engaging to pump on attempted start-up. Which leads me to believe its still a EWS II issue but I'm all out of ideas

Ideas?
Thought about testing the relay to the DME but not sure of ohm values.
Also this car will NOT provide me with any codes doing the stomp test.

Thanks to everyone that has any input

Last edited by ttaylo036; 12-31-2012 at 12:42 AM.
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  #232  
Old 12-31-2012, 12:33 AM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Ok, this is how it works.

The EWS system communicates with the EWS component of your ECU/ DME's programming. The EWS is the 1st gatekeeper and the DME is the second gatekeeper.

When the EWS system itself is busted, the signal from the ignition key does not even reach the rest of the car, hence your engine will not even turn over.

Bypassing the EWS system allows your ignition signal to reach the starter and cause the engine to crank.

However, no EWS signal reaches the DME to pair up with its internal programming. Hence the ECU will assume that the security verification is not complete and not take further action. Therefore, the car will crank but will not fire up. Unclamp the ECU and you'll see that the car still cranks but still does not start....same thing essentially.

You need to bypass BOTH gatekeepers to get this running. Your current DME is still looking for the EWS. You gotta stop that as well.

What you need, is an EWS delete chip on your ecu. This is a aftermarket chip that's coded for your car, but without the EWS subroutines. So you may have purchased an extra DME, but unless it has this ews delete chip installed on it, or its an older dme (91.92, etc, generally known as a red label dme) which did not have an EWS pairing function to begin with, your car will still not fire up even though the initial culprit, your first gatekeeper, the primary EWS system itself, has been disabled.

If all of this is news to you, then you have read through Steve's first post too quickly. Please re-read the very first post on this thread again for further details beyond this point.

rgds,
Roberto

p.s. EWS delete chips retail for around $50 on ebay). You can probably plug that into your original ecu (the chips come with installation instructions) or your new spare ecu. Or you can sell off your new spare ecu and purchase an older red label dme instead. I would suggest the ews delete chip because it usually contains an enhanced map which will improve your car's performance itself, so you'll turn a repair into an upgrade.


Roberto,

Its possible that my DME is still looking for the EWS, since no chips are avaible for the 4cyl what are my options?
Possible EWS II emulator?

Last edited by ttaylo036; 12-31-2012 at 01:16 AM.
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  #233  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:46 AM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Hi dude ! 10k miles indeed! Unbelievable. Yes, your dme is still looking for it. Secondly, i read through your update above and your ohm readings...wait i think you meant to say 1250 ohms and not 1.25ohms. Is this the right reading for your engibe ? Check the bentley manual abd google. For us it would be the right reading for the caM sensor.

As to your delete chip issues, you will either need to fix the ews2 system properly and use your existing ecu or go to the dealer for help.

PLEASE POST IN THE E36 FORUMS FOR CHEAPER HELP WITH YOUR ECU. Post worldwide if you need to, our e36 forums are not always responsive according to my buddy.

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 12-31-2012 at 06:35 AM.
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  #234  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:55 AM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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You mentioned in an earlier post:

You absolutely have to check your CPS. Remember, it should read 540 ohms +/- 10%. If the CPS is out of specs

Yes mine is at 1250 or 1.25 depending on settings of the meter, I have a Hayes Book and its within those specs for a M42 engine...should it need to be at 540?

The sensor I checked is on the front of the engine of a 4cly near the oil filter. You have to remove the upper intake to get to the wire connector real pain to get to.

Last edited by ttaylo036; 12-31-2012 at 03:01 AM.
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  #235  
Old 12-31-2012, 03:54 AM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?n...d=300834506572

Just buy that dude. Read the description. Non ews 318is 16 valve engines ecu. Pull the trigger. I'll pay for it assuming it is not doa and does not work on your ride.

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 12-31-2012 at 03:57 AM.
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  #236  
Old 12-31-2012, 06:17 AM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
I had some help tonight so I went out to tackle the BMW once more.

Please allow me to recap.
I have a 4cly E36 made in March of 1995 with 10K miles, my symptoms started with a intermit starting to a complete "no crank" and yes I had dash lights, windows work, headlights work and taillights work.

So I:
Had a new key made at BMW- (still no crank)
Did EWSII bypass as instructed (THE CAR WILL Crank!!) but no start
Tested CPS and passed at 1.25 ohms across pins 1 and 2
Bypassed clutch by combining the blue and brown wires together.
Bought a known good DME from Bavarian (silver) as a manufacture replacement
Bought a new Optima Yellow top battery
Made jumper for fuel pump relay and confirmed pressure
Removed resistor ring from around key hole

Ok, so after all this I still have confirmed no spark while car is cranking.
I have good battery power, I can hear a clicking as when I turn over the key. I don't think the fuel pump is engaging to pump on attempted start-up. Which leads me to believe its still a EWS II issue but I'm all out of ideas

Ideas?
Thought about testing the relay to the DME but not sure of ohm values.
Also this car will NOT provide me with any codes doing the stomp test.

Thanks to everyone that has any input
Have you checked your coil and have you checked your main relay? Unfortunately, it still sounds like an EWS issue, but perhaps the coil or main relay are the problem.
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold


Last edited by BMR_LVR; 12-31-2012 at 06:18 AM.
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  #237  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:13 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by robertobaggio20 View Post
Check out this item I found on eBay: http://pages.ebay.com/motors/link/?n...d=300834506572

Just buy that dude. Read the description. Non ews 318is 16 valve engines ecu. Pull the trigger. I'll pay for it assuming it is not doa and does not work on your ride.
Nice find! I bought it.....

Thanks for all your help guys!!!!
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  #238  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:25 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
Nice find! I bought it.....

Thanks for all your help guys!!!!
Good luck with it. I have never seen where the EWS II bypass procedure has been done on a 318. If it works, you may well be the first. I hope it works for you.
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #239  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:30 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BMR_LVR View Post
Have you checked your coil and have you checked your main relay? Unfortunately, it still sounds like an EWS issue, but perhaps the coil or main relay are the problem.
No I haven't my electrical checking skills are very low. I'm more of a mechanical tech, although I do follow instructions quiet well

If what Roberto says is a fact the car will never start as long as I have not bypassed the EWS within the DME and since there are no mods available for the 4 banger kinda in a tough spot.

Im pretty excited to see if the 94 red label 4cyl no ews dme will work. I may have it by the end of the week..... booo yaaaa
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  #240  
Old 12-31-2012, 01:40 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
No I haven't my electrical checking skills are very low. I'm more of a mechanical tech, although I do follow instructions quiet well

If what Roberto says is a fact the car will never start as long as I have not bypassed the EWS within the DME and since there are no mods available for the 4 banger kinda in a tough spot.

Im pretty excited to see if the 94 red label 4cyl no ews dme will work. I may have it by the end of the week..... booo yaaaa
I would still take a look at them while you are waiting on the DME. The checks are outlined in Bentley.

Fingers crossed for ya
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold


Last edited by BMR_LVR; 12-31-2012 at 01:41 PM.
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  #241  
Old 12-31-2012, 02:27 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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I think it is time that we found a way to fix the EWS2 system itself, or at least analyse what its most common defect is to see if a fix can be created (we might even turn that into an anticipatory fix if its simple enough to do, to prevent no-start situations on EWS equipped cars.) That way we wont need ecus and people can get up and running faster. I'll say boo yaa to that too.

Tim, that was an expensive ecu. Keep looking around to see if you can find a EWS2 delete chip with boosted maps for your car. It was built in the time of 89 octane gas which is no longer the baseline gas now and so can tolerate a better map. If you find it, swop out the chip in your current ecu, and keep the red label as a working spare if you intend to hold the car for a couple of years at least. If your boosted silver dme goes bust (it happens but pretty rare fortunately), transfer the boost chip to the red label dme and you're good to go. Good luck.

Last edited by robertobaggio20; 12-31-2012 at 02:31 PM.
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  #242  
Old 01-01-2013, 01:37 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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My next move if something doesn't work with the red label will be a emulator with K-line programmer.
Pricing varies it seems from 10 bucks for the emulator to $200 for the K-line programmer.

This could be a preventative maintenance fix assuming it works
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  #243  
Old 01-01-2013, 01:55 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
My next move if something doesn't work with the red label will be a emulator with K-line programmer.
Pricing varies it seems from 10 bucks for the emulator to $200 for the K-line programmer.

This could be a preventative maintenance fix assuming it works
I don't even know what those things are
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #244  
Old 01-01-2013, 06:14 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post
My next move if something doesn't work with the red label will be a emulator with K-line programmer.
Pricing varies it seems from 10 bucks for the emulator to $200 for the K-line programmer.

This could be a preventative maintenance fix assuming it works
Sir, what is an emulator and what is a k-line programmer ? In laymans terms. )

It sound like a method to recode the eprom chip on the dme/ecu itself. Am I correct ?

Does anyone have any idea which specific part/aspect of the EWS is usually going bust, when the system itself goes bust ?
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  #245  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:20 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Yes, here is the emulator on ebay. I've read the installation instructions and you still have to tie the wires together at the EWS and cut the green wire. I feel this emulator is a viable option because they mention the wire modifications that I know work!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/A02061-BMW-E...f31006&vxp=mtr

Here is a link to youtube, you can see where this guy attaches this emulator to the board.



Then you have to have the K-line programmer to program it, here is one that was for sale
http://forums.bimmerforums.com/forum....php?t=1843574

Sucks there isn't more info about this repair, I've looked for hours and yet to find a solid lead yet.
I have high hopes for the red label 4cyl DME, I really don't want to down this emulator road
but hey this could be helpful in years to come when all the DMEs and old Bimmers are recycled into pop cans.

Last edited by ttaylo036; 01-01-2013 at 09:34 PM.
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  #246  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:37 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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That's basically another way of creating the EWS delete chip, or the solution is in the same box. I'm wondering if there is a way to actually fix the EWS system itself. If there is some component of the EWS system that is almost always at fault when the ews system itself starts acting up, and if its a cheap component to purchase new and diyable, then it would be a great fix direct or anticipatory fix for these situations.

Have you studied the EWS2 system istelf (everything outside the ecu ? ) Can you speculate along this angle ?
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  #247  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:43 PM
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BMR_LVR BMR_LVR is offline
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I wish that guy would narrate his vid

Heck, all I see is a bunch of circuit boards and 3 wires that look out of place and soldered on both ends. Now, author of that vid, ...... please tell me what I'm looking at

Okay ... calmed down now

Seriously now. ttaylo036, would you please explain to me (in emulator use for Dummies format please) what the emmulator does and the k-line programmer is and does? I'm sure I could Google until I go blind .. er .... wait .... isn't that something else :blushing:

Is this a EWS II bypass procedure for the 318? Would the same technique work on the 95 M50 EWS II system? I know that there are EWS delete chips for the M50 that would make the process much easier, but this just looks so interesting.

Also, I'm assuming the process is bypassing a bad EWS module and not fixing a bad DME like the situation that I had, correct?

Thanks in advance if you choose to school this old dog and teach me a new trick.
__________________
Most problems are usually something simple !

Quote:
Originally Posted by noego View Post
It's Deja Poo - as in, I've heard this **** before.
Steve

Calypso Red 1992 525i with 200K miles

1991 735i - Sold
1992 525i - Sold
1995 325is - Sold
2000 528i - Sold

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  #248  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:56 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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The K-line is communication to the DME and wiring no engine and its the round plug under the hood.

Its seems that thefrog1394 is the most knowledgeable of this.
Here a link to him talking about the K-line Bus

http://www.e46fanatics.com/forum/sho...d.php?t=734615

I wish I new more the info is scarce on this subject.
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  #249  
Old 01-01-2013, 09:59 PM
ttaylo036 ttaylo036 is offline
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Quote from the Frog

Its the K-bus that is not connected on all cars. On the cars with the round diag plug under the hood the K bus is not connected to the OBD port.

FYI not all those pins are connected on the OBD port. Newer cars connect CAN but older ones did not. It was only mandated in the US in 2008

A quick google search leads me to believe that the e46 does NOT have a CAN bus. It uses ISO 9141-2 on the diag port. If you want to decode speed information your best bet is probably to get a USB VAG-COM adaptor and use BMW INPA/EDIABAS and connect to your car's K-line. Google around INPA and you will find more information on it. Its a great tool to have anyways, you can read way more specific information from the cars computer besides the generic stuff that the OBD reader tells you. Think how the Peake tool is advertised only this is what BMW dealers and factories use. (well dealers use DIS but, whatever I digress, both talk to the computer through the K-line)
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  #250  
Old 01-01-2013, 10:05 PM
robertobaggio20 robertobaggio20 is offline
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Originally Posted by ttaylo036 View Post

Ok, so after all this I still have confirmed no spark while car is cranking.
I have good battery power, I can hear a clicking as when I turn over the key.
Tim, how did you confirm that you had no spark ? What test/steps did you take ? Thanks.
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