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Do you own a diesel powered BMW? Maybe a 335d or a BMW x35d? Come and talk about what makes your car great!

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  #1  
Old 04-26-2011, 04:09 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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2011 335d Oil Analysis Results

Some data for those who care.

I changed the factory fill early at 1600 miles and then sampled the oil again last week at 4700 miles on the new oil (just sampled, didn't change).

There was some talk about the factory fill being a special break-in oil, but it seems that in my 2011 it was basically the same as the Castrol SLX Pro OE 5w-30 that I used for the oil change.

I did find it interesting that the Silicon was much lower in the 2nd sample even though it had much more miles on it. Perhaps there was residual silicon left after the engine manufacturing process?

I'll likely sample again at 10k.
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  #2  
Old 04-26-2011, 05:40 PM
DnA Diesel DnA Diesel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Some data for those who care.

I changed the factory fill early at 1600 miles and then sampled the oil again last week at 4700 miles on the new oil (just sampled, didn't change).

There was some talk about the factory fill being a special break-in oil, but it seems that in my 2011 it was basically the same as the Castrol SLX Pro OE 5w-30 that I used for the oil change.

I did find it interesting that the Silicon was much lower in the 2nd sample even though it had much more miles on it. Perhaps there was residual silicon left after the engine manufacturing process?

I'll likely sample again at 10k.
TDIwyse, good to see the contrast (or lack thereof, for the most part). What do you think resulted in the marked increase in Zinc in your current fill?

Cheers
D
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  #3  
Old 04-26-2011, 06:44 PM
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Zinc is usually the high pressure additive, allows the bearings to handle higher loads, as I recall.

Silicon was anti foaming agent, again as I recall.
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Old 04-26-2011, 07:06 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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I have no idea. I should look around at some other UOA's and compare.

Quote:
Originally Posted by DnA Diesel View Post
TDIwyse, good to see the contrast (or lack thereof, for the most part). What do you think resulted in the marked increase in Zinc in your current fill?

Cheers
D
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  #5  
Old 04-26-2011, 07:16 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Found a couple other reports online for the original fill from a quick search:

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2023785
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1889923

Interesting that the zinc is close to my 1st one but much lower than my 2nd.

And then from a different vehicle using Castrol SLX Pro 5w-30.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=2184836

It has similar Zinc to my 2nd report.

Seems like the factory fill is a different chemistry than the Castrol SLX Pro OE?
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  #6  
Old 04-27-2011, 09:58 AM
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BMW does not use 'break in oil' in the d, per their own documents.

I have a guess on the difference in Zinc between the factory fill and the Castrol: almost all of the Euro sourced LL04 oils are low or even zero zinc oils, whereas the LL04 oils available over here have reduced zinc levels (compared to other oils) but yet their zinc levels are significantly higher than the Euro oils. I guess there is enough wiggle room in the LL04 spec to allow both approaches to satisfying the spec.
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Old 07-21-2011, 03:43 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Re-sampled the engine oil. ~8100 mls on this oil, ~ 9700 mls on the D. Looks like the oil has a lot of life left so 15k OCI's might be OK. Also glad to see the fuel contamination (PFC) at 8100 mls using mostly Sinclair B5-B20 (They won't say specifically what the blend is, only that it's between 5% and 20% biodiesel) is barely more than what was present with pure petro diesel at 1600 mls on the factory fill.

Comments welcome.
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  #8  
Old 07-21-2011, 05:29 PM
d geek d geek is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TDIwyse View Post
Re-sampled the engine oil. ~8100 mls on this oil, ~ 9700 mls on the D. Looks like the oil has a lot of life left so 15k OCI's might be OK. Also glad to see the fuel contamination (PFC) at 8100 mls using mostly Sinclair B5-B20 (They won't say specifically what the blend is, only that it's between 5% and 20% biodiesel) is barely more than what was present with pure petro diesel at 1600 mls on the factory fill.

Comments welcome.
I am very leery of reading too much into UOA because of testing error, but what do you think about the first two readings having half the iron present on the third?
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  #9  
Old 07-21-2011, 06:13 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
I am very leery of reading too much into UOA because of testing error, but what do you think about the first two readings having half the iron present on the third?
Interesting, as I'm not sure what the errors are in the measurements. Should ask the CAT tech and see if he'll report those. Or if anyone else knows I'd be interested to learn.

Regarding the FE, its a wear metal so one would expect that to increase as more miles are put on the oil. The first sample had an FE of 25 with only 1600 mls on the oil (oil changed at that sample). The 2nd sample had an FE of 25 with 4700 mls, so the wear rate had already shown some greatly reduced accumulation (~300% lower wear rate). The 3rd sample was the same oil as the 2nd, but with 8143 total mls (or an additional 3443 mls) and an additional 28 of FE (28+25=53). So the wear rate was still greatly lower than the 1st reading, but did increase a bit from the 2nd. But it still seems quite reasonable for a new engine breaking in. Plus these last mls have been put on during some very hot weather where the engine oil will likely have less viscosity for the majority of its operation. So in 9743 mls there was a total FE worn of 53+25=78 which is less than the samples linked in the above posts which had less mls (5470 mls @ 82 and 6534 @ 93).

Overall it seems quite good to me. But I'm not an expert in UOA's, so others with more wisdom might have better insights.
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  #10  
Old 07-21-2011, 07:10 PM
d geek d geek is online now
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yeah- At only 8100 miles you're most likely still breaking in. And my recollection is that anything under 100ppm FE is acceptable.
I believe that the reason a reading <100 is acceptable is because the oil analysis folks know there is measurement error and that its difficult to make a decision on wear. That said, I just thought it notable that the reading doubled after being stable for all those miles.
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  #11  
Old 07-24-2011, 09:20 PM
Never Enuff Never Enuff is offline
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Thanks for taking the time and effort to share these results with the forum. Like most long time diesel owners, I religously change the oil in all my diesels at no more than 5K intervals. While I can't interpret the data from your oil analysis very well, it seems your comments suggest a reasonable conclusion would be that 15K oil change intervals are appropriate.

If my conclusion is somehow incorrect, please let me know, but otherwise thanks for this contribution.
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  #12  
Old 07-24-2011, 10:00 PM
d geek d geek is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Enuff View Post
...Like most long time diesel owners, I religously change the oil in all my diesels at no more than 5K intervals...
I'd say you're in the minority on this. I've changed oil at 10K intervals on my diesels- by the book...
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Old 07-26-2011, 06:24 AM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Got a response from the lab on their processes and tolerances for their measurements. They have a very sophisticated protocol for calibration (I was asked not to share the specifics of this, but being an engineer who works with test equipment that undergoes specific calibration protocols I was very impressed with their process). Basically the wear metals are accurate to within 10% for results down to a couple ppm where the resolution tails off.

Their opinion was sampling technique will usually cause the most variation in results.

Both my samples where taken within 5 mins of shutting down a fully warmed up engine. Used a suction tube to draw oil from the dip stick tube.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:49 AM
Never Enuff Never Enuff is offline
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
I'd say you're in the minority on this. I've changed oil at 10K intervals on my diesels- by the book...

I'd say you just might have made an incorrect assumption regarding what 6 other diesel motors I might have owned/operated in the past, and I am pretty certain I am not in the minority on the oil change interval I observe on my 7.3 litre Ford Powerstroke. Like a few others, I can actually read pretty well and generally follow the advice of the owners manual.

I have owned (2) 7.3 litre Ford (Navistar sourced) powerstroke diesels since 2001, and I can only hope that in 10 years I love the N57 BMW diesel engine as much as I love the venerable 7.3 Powerstroke I still operate just about every weekend.

https://www.powerstrokediesel.com/index.aspx?PageId=305
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  #15  
Old 07-26-2011, 09:36 AM
grapes87 grapes87 is offline
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This thread is full of very intresting data, things that I have never thought about in the past.

I own my d, and plan on following the Computer based service schedule. Thus, my oil changes will be every x miles or once a year.

I would imagine that the majority of owners would be doing the same as well, correct?
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Old 07-26-2011, 11:35 AM
d geek d geek is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Never Enuff View Post
I'd say you just might have made an incorrect assumption regarding what 6 other diesel motors I might have owned/operated in the past, and I am pretty certain I am not in the minority on the oil change interval I observe on my 7.3 litre Ford Powerstroke. Like a few others, I can actually read pretty well and generally follow the advice of the owners manual.

I have owned (2) 7.3 litre Ford (Navistar sourced) powerstroke diesels since 2001, and I can only hope that in 10 years I love the N57 BMW diesel engine as much as I love the venerable 7.3 Powerstroke I still operate just about every weekend.

https://www.powerstrokediesel.com/index.aspx?PageId=305
And I've owned 6 passenger car diesels over the last 10 years. Every single one of them had a 10K mi oil change interval per the owner's manual. Seems strange that the little 2 and 3L engines with relatively small crankcase volumes don't require as frequent oil changes as the big guys
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Old 07-26-2011, 01:34 PM
DnA Diesel DnA Diesel is offline
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
And I've owned 6 passenger car diesels over the last 10 years. Every single one of them had a 10K mi oil change interval per the owner's manual. Seems strange that the little 2 and 3L engines with relatively small crankcase volumes don't require as frequent oil changes as the big guys
His Navistar T444/7.3 Powerstroke has a much shorter oil change cycle because of the use of the engine's lubrication oil to power the HEUI fuel injectors. T444's have about the shortest oil change period of any diesel I know of NAVSTAR the HEUI system really strains the oil and breaks it down relatively quickly. If he extended the oil change beyond OEM recommendations, he'd have a rash of injector failures, and those unit injectors aren't cheap.

While the T444 is a dependable engine if properly maintained, it is not the low-mainentance, high-mileage motor like it's bigger non-HEUI sister, the DT-466, arguably one of the best, moat reliable diesels Navistar ever made.

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Old 07-26-2011, 05:57 PM
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That makes sense- thanks for the explanation, DnA.

Never Enuff- my apologies. Welcome to the world of diesel automobiles Here's to enjoying you BMW, and I look forward to my one day owning a bimmer 'd too.
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Old 07-26-2011, 07:14 PM
Never Enuff Never Enuff is offline
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Originally Posted by d geek View Post
That makes sense- thanks for the explanation, DnA.

Never Enuff- my apologies. Welcome to the world of diesel automobiles Here's to enjoying you BMW, and I look forward to my one day owning a bimmer 'd too.
No worries mate, Cheers!
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Old 10-27-2011, 06:02 PM
TDIwyse TDIwyse is offline
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Had my 1st service at ~13k mls. This oil had ~11,500 miles on it and seemed to hold up pretty well. I may do an oil drain without filter change midway through the scheduled service just because I'm conservative.

Most of the miles were with the Sinclair B5-B20 ULSD. There was no issue with fuel dilution on this level of bio (of course I have no idea on what level between 5 and 20% fuel I was running as the station only states it's somewhere between 5 and 20%).

No warnings of low DEF.

Got a 328 loaner overnight. It averaged (according it it's computer calculated) 29 mpg for my round trip commute to work. The 335D has been averaging near 40 for this time of year (dry, no AC). Was glad to get my 335D back.
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  #21  
Old 10-27-2011, 10:53 PM
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Where the heck did the iron come from? The rings and crankshaft are about the only iron in there.
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  #22  
Old 03-15-2012, 01:39 PM
ncbuckeye ncbuckeye is offline
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Updated Oil Report- First change at 7439 mi

Here is my report from my first oil change. I've never done an analysis before on anything, so I'm curious what others think. The few things that stand out to me are: High Iron, Low Zinc, and good amount of additive left.

I know there is debate about factory fill being no different than the Castrol SLX, but the oil reports I've seen with the Castrol SLX Professional have had high zinc, but the first change (on mine and others) shows low zinc?

Thoughts?
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  #23  
Old 03-15-2012, 05:21 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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The low zinc is a characteristic of the factory fill. It is a FUCHS oil I believe (they make excellent oils by the way - - sadly they don't sell in the U.S.). They are known as "the factory fill specialist" in Europe. I believe they do the factory fills on many types of German cars, particularly diesel engine families. The lack of zinc is the tell tale. The FUCHS low sulphated ash oils (e.g. BMW LL04) are known not to have zinc (the little zinc that shows up on your UOA of the factory fill is from the metal parts of the engine, particularly anything that is zinc plated). The Castrol service fill your dealer will use does have zinc as a carrier for the anti-wear phosphorous (zddp). It will show around 700-800 ppm zinc. Don't know how FUCHS manages to get away without it. Actually the less metals like zinc you have in the oil the better - - the less deposits you get in the engine, particularly the turbos and any emissions devices. Like I said the FUCHS is primo oil - - don't know why folks insist on dumping it so soon.

I wouldn't worry about the high ppm iron. Don't know why but all the diesel UOAs I've seen (mostly 335d and VW TDI on BITOG) always show high ppm iron. It should drop some as the engine wears in - - which will take a long, long time if my experience with a '09 VW TDI is any indication. Engine doesn't start to free up until around 40-60k miles. Fuel mileage should improve accordingly.

Last edited by m6pwr; 03-15-2012 at 06:59 PM.
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  #24  
Old 03-15-2012, 07:05 PM
listerone listerone is offline
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Originally Posted by m6pwr View Post
The low zinc is a characteristic of the factory fill. It is a FUCHS oil I believe (they make excellent oils by the way - - sadly they don't sell in the U.S.).
Yes they do.Six months ago I got 20 litres of MB 229.51/BMW LL-04 from "germanfilters dot com".Good price...free shipping.
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  #25  
Old 03-15-2012, 11:07 PM
m6pwr m6pwr is offline
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You're right. I forgot about online mail order. The dieselstore.com also sells the LL04 FUCHS.
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