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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > X Series > X3 F25 (2011 - current)

X3 F25 (2011 - current)
The latest X3 brings some added style and some new features to the BMW SUV family. Talk about the new F25 now!

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  #1  
Old 05-09-2011, 09:12 AM
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Shaw Shaw is offline
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Angry Any thoughts on this?

Amazing acceleration Audi vs. BMW !
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  #2  
Old 05-09-2011, 11:07 AM
mole7374 mole7374 is offline
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Audi's AWD is awesome....period. However you cannot compare rally car setup to production....not exactly the same. Just like with Subaru they are HIGHLY modified for race. That being said however....Audi still makes a killer setup. Biggest question though is that does it really matter from an every day basis....in my opinion, if you have BMW, Audi or Subaru, you are getting "real" AWD systems....everyone else is questionable.
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  #3  
Old 05-09-2011, 07:43 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Not sure what you are asking. They arent making any comparisons in this video. And these are all pro set ups.

Is the audi quattro any better? Who knows, but in the record 3 ft snow fall we had here last year in MD I didnt even shovel out my X3. I simply threw it in reverse and pushed the snow out of the way. Then pulled forward and dug out. Once in a life time situation and it worked fine.

In another good test I went up an old logging road in Up State NY that turned out to be deep in mud. No problem with standard Michelin A/S sports.

Do I need more? Not unless I am going to an off road rally. And I am as critical as they come when it comes to the X3.
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  #4  
Old 05-10-2011, 04:54 AM
mole7374 mole7374 is offline
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Originally Posted by Evlengr View Post
Not sure what you are asking. They arent making any comparisons in this video. And these are all pro set ups.

Is the audi quattro any better? Who knows, but in the record 3 ft snow fall we had here last year in MD I didnt even shovel out my X3. I simply threw it in reverse and pushed the snow out of the way. Then pulled forward and dug out. Once in a life time situation and it worked fine.

In another good test I went up an old logging road in Up State NY that turned out to be deep in mud. No problem with standard Michelin A/S sports.

Do I need more? Not unless I am going to an off road rally. And I am as critical as they come when it comes to the X3.
Exactly!!! Shaw...like EV said I'm not sure what you are so down about....if you are worried about getting taken by a quattro vehicle at a rally race....well you probably will! ...and s will the rest of us! Seriously though...don't get too caught up with this...I can tell you that comparing "true AWD systems" is an absolute religious conversation!! And when I say "true", again I mean the likes of BMW, Audi & Subaru. (and mitsu EVO only) Its a huge rat hole discussion b/c everyone does AWD differently and comparing them for production vehicles like we drive is very complicated. Most people on here will defend BMW, which is a great system, however the defacto in most circles is subaru or audi just because they have been around so long and are very "proven" in the race scene...however...look at track cars...porsche & nissan GTR are awessome... So you see, comparing is not simple. Even BMWs "difference event" was skewed.. you notice how every vehicle had the one back tire not on ice but the rest on...that's b/c BMWs are rear biased...what if there was a front tire with traction and both rears on ice...I'll bet you the lexus and audi get off the ice more quickly...so you see it's all perception and games with AWD systems. Everyone does it differently... audi is a mechanical system, which in race scenes is great b/c it uses torsion in the drivetrain to detect where to send power...however do we need that on the road? Subaru uses viscous coupling in many systems (forester/outback), however the STI is completely different... Xdrive is built for the kind of driving that we all do...handles most situations on road very well....and subie does the same. Audi's downside is the system is very heavy b/c it's mechanical.

And man this is only the tip of the iceberg I have to tell you... if you want to see a funny thing happen, go out to a subaru board...especially an STI board, and post that video! It will be chaos! (and funny)
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  #5  
Old 05-10-2011, 06:17 AM
n55x3 n55x3 is offline
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If you want to feel better about xDrive vs Quattro just google: X3 vs Quattro youtube

You'll see several videos where the quattro really struggles with front/rear power distribution.

I drive a Legacy GT daily and its AWD is a gem. It is very predictable and has no electric nannies to overide me (the driver's) input. Unlike the X3 which is very cautious to do as the driver directs. This is why my wife drives the X3, no thinking needed, the car does it all for her.
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  #6  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:02 AM
mole7374 mole7374 is offline
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Originally Posted by n55x3 View Post
If you want to feel better about xDrive vs Quattro just google: X3 vs Quattro youtube

You'll see several videos where the quattro really struggles with front/rear power distribution.

I drive a Legacy GT daily and its AWD is a gem. It is very predictable and has no electric nannies to overide me (the driver's) input. Unlike the X3 which is very cautious to do as the driver directs. This is why my wife drives the X3, no thinking needed, the car does it all for her.
Good post!

Subie has advantage b/c they have been doing it for sooooooo long. Xdrive is pretty much the same setup across all models which makes it predictable etc..like you post. Subie has different setup for STI...for forester & outback automatic vs manual... etc.

Nobody will dispute Audi on the rally setup...they have been awesome there, however in that situation front/back distribution is not as important as left/right...hence why they do so well.

Just be thankful we don't have to deal with AWD systems the likes of Honda/Toyota(lexus),ford/chevy... all of those cr@ppy systems are front biased and you basically have to loose substantial power before those "real time" systems try to even kick in...by that time are you wrapped around a tree. Only "hybrid" system that comes close is acura SH-AWD, however that too is front biased and all they do is send power to one rear wheel or the other during hard turning etc.
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  #7  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:22 AM
n55x3 n55x3 is offline
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Yeah I agree, I have never been a fan of the front biased setups. They just don't feel as sporty as the rear biased systems.
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  #8  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:29 AM
Mikeacarroll Mikeacarroll is offline
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And I can attest that the Venza AWD system doesn't work. I got stuck in a snowbank trying to avoid a lady in an Audi A4 who thought all wheel drive meant all wheel stop. No matter what I did, the rear wheels never grabbed to move me off the snowbank. The front wheels spun like crazy but at no point did the rear wheels do anything. Oddly enough a good samaritan in a BMW pulled helped me out of the situation. Any wonder why I'm looking at a BMW next time?

Last edited by Mikeacarroll; 05-11-2011 at 07:32 AM.
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  #9  
Old 05-10-2011, 08:52 AM
n55x3 n55x3 is offline
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There are many misconceptions about AWD and even 4WD. Most 4WD trucks you see on the road, when locked into 4HI are only 2 wheel drive (1 front and 1 rear), by nature of these systems the power is transferred to the wheel with least resistance. Some models try to fix this by putting a limited slip diff in the rear or like GM does, an Eaton locker (which requires 200 rpm diff to engage).

Like folks said above not all AWD and 4WD systems are the same, in fact in some cases not even remotely the same!!

I think the xDrive does a great job moving power to the wheels that have the most traction.
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  #10  
Old 05-10-2011, 09:19 AM
mole7374 mole7374 is offline
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Originally Posted by Mikeacarroll View Post
And I can attest that the Venza AWD system doesn't work. I got stuck in a snowbank trying to avoid a lady in an Audi A4 who thought all wheel drive meant all wheel stop. No matter what I did, did the rear wheels ever grab and move me off the snowbank. The front wheels spun like crazy but at no point did the rear wheels do anything. Oddly enough a good samaritan in a BMW pulled helped me out of the situation. Any wonder why I'm looking at a BMW next time?
Sorry to hear that..... there is a LOOOOOOONG explaniation as to why, but basically it's like this.....except for the "real AWD" systems out there, (ie audi, bmw, subaru) everyone else operates basically half @ss...meaning... in your example, since both tires are spinning, the toyota system (and honda..and ford..and chevy) can basically be "tricked" into thinking the car is moving ahead as it would on the highway sending power to the front wheels...so basically the system is like "ok we're driving...all's well". It's not until one of two things happen that the system starts to get "smart". 1) one wheel would have to get tracktion while the other doesn't...then the system knows there's trouble and will try and shift backwards... 2) one wheel starts to move at a different speed than the other...and then the same happens...it tries to move power backwards.

This is why you got stuck. The "real" systems are going to monitor differently and apply power differently. It's amazing how simple (and broken) AWD systems can be, or how complex (and reliable) others can be.

The X3 difference event highlighted the toyota problem with the lexus...and if you go on youtube and look at subaru or bmw or audi AWD videos, you'll see more of the same.
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  #11  
Old 05-10-2011, 05:07 PM
Mikeacarroll Mikeacarroll is offline
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Thank you!

Mole, thank you so much for the explanation. I was really disappointed because while driving in snow of light to moderate depth the Venza does OK, but when I needed it to really perform, it got tricked. Funny enough I saw a Lexus RX350 that weekend stuck and it was a guy in a Jeep Cherokee pulling him out. I'd look at a Jeep but for 2 things, the hemi sucks way too much gas and their reliability hasn't proven itself yet.
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  #12  
Old 05-10-2011, 07:17 PM
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Evlengr Evlengr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikeacarroll View Post
Mole, thank you so much for the explanation. I was really disappointed because while driving in snow of light to moderate depth the Venza does OK, but when I needed it to really perform, it got tricked. Funny enough I saw a Lexus RX350 that weekend stuck and it was a guy in a Jeep Cherokee pulling him out. I'd look at a Jeep but for 2 things, the hemi sucks way too much gas and their reliability hasn't proven itself yet.
I wouldn't take a Jeep if someone bought it for me. I had two Jeep Cherokees that were great. I mistakenly replaced my perfectly working 2000 Jeep Cherrokee with a 2005 GC.

It was horrible on gas 12 mpg, it had no power whatsover (if it had good mpg I would have let that go), the interior was as cheap as they come, even the fabric stained when regular water from a sprinkler hit it. Handling - horrible, braking- scary, acceleration - non existant... I traded the thing in at a loss after owning it 9 months.

Unfortunately I got the 2007 AT X3 in return. I now have an 08 MT x3. Great vehicle.
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2013 S4 Loaded (and NO RFT's) Awesome is an understatement
2008 MT X3 RIP you were a faithful sidekick and will be missed.
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1984 GTI Wolfsburg Edition Neuspeed and more

Last edited by Evlengr; 05-10-2011 at 07:18 PM.
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  #13  
Old 05-11-2011, 09:03 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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The "new" Jeep GC with a new much more economical V6 (300 hp) is supposed to be vastly improved over the old. While others have had problems in the past -- many have not, and the Jeep remains a viable choice for anyone living in areas where its capabilities are required part of the year IMHO. I have two close relatives who absolutely swear by the JGC and will have nothing else. So, in many ways (as with X3's) it is the luck of the draw. As an aside, I saw two flatbed tow trucks crossing an intersection in opposite directions with Range Rovers on each of them! I wish I could have gotten a photo!

Last edited by UncleJ; 05-11-2011 at 09:06 AM.
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  #14  
Old 05-11-2011, 09:13 AM
n55x3 n55x3 is offline
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I think the new JGC is an absolutely amazing vehicle other than 2 things: very dated tranny and very thirsty Hemi.

From a chassis perspective it is rock solid. The ML underpinnings do show through. Heck the JGC even shares the same guage cluster as ML350.

I have read that starting in 2013 the JGCs will get the 8spd ZF, similar to what have in our X3s.

I test drove a couple JGCs and they are very quiet, very capable off-road and the interior is pretty darn nice and super spacious. Remember we are talking a loaded SUV in the $40k segment. I think the BMW iDrive is leaps and bounds above the garmin interface in the Jeep but again it is not quite as expensive. If they would have had the 8spd which could probably get the Hemi into mid 20s MPG with the 7th and 8th cruising gears it would probably be in our garage rather than the X3. The only other thing I disliked is the frequency that I see them on the road. I see probably 5 everyday and it is only getting worse. I really like having an 'exclusive' vehicle. Granted the X3 will start showing up more frequnetly but for the itme being it is nice to know we are amongst a few lucky folks to be rolling in an X3.

Last edited by n55x3; 05-11-2011 at 09:17 AM.
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  #15  
Old 05-11-2011, 09:20 AM
UncleJ UncleJ is offline
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Around here we have more X5's and X3's -- getting a JGC would be a "unique" vehicle not seen around every corner.
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  #16  
Old 05-11-2011, 11:15 AM
n55x3 n55x3 is offline
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I believe it! I think regional avg salaries plays a big part in that. There are many folks driving around the midwest in the sub $30k variant of the new JGC. I do rarely see the Overlands which can be optioned above $40k pretty easily.
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  #17  
Old 05-11-2011, 11:44 AM
TMQ TMQ is offline
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None of this means much if your tires aren't good. Most people spent $ on AWD and skimp on the tires and they suffer the consequences.

Acura's SH-AWD also works great. The Germans are starting to adopt the torque vectoring, or the half ass electronic "performance control", as an option.
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  #18  
Old 05-11-2011, 11:51 AM
mole7374 mole7374 is offline
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None of this means much if your tires aren't good. Most people spent $ on AWD and skimp on the tires and they suffer the consequences.

Acura's SH-AWD also works great. The Germans are starting to adopt the torque vectoring, or the half ass electronic "performance control", as an option.
I couldn't agree more.... no matter what kind of suspension or handling setup you have, the tires are what keep you connected to the road...100% agree.

Acura's system is pretty cool actually although its still front biased to save on gas...you will notice it kick in when you take turns hard and honestly you can feel it working.

The biggest difference in this whole "torque vectoring" discussion/argment between car makers is where they detect to send the power... audi does it in the drivetrain in a mechanical fashion BEFORE the power goes to the wheel.....subaru has a lmiited slip which is going to detect traction AT THE WHEEL and then inform the drivetrain where to send power.....there are probably 100,000 threads out there arguing which is better...and honestly its a painful argument b/c who is really right??? I believe that BMW does it electronically in the drivetrain which is similar to Audi but without the overhead of a mechanical system adding weight etc...and in theory the electronic system is faster...however audi argues that the mechanical system is more accurate in actually detecting the power.
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