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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #1  
Old 11-25-2014, 04:50 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Multiple misfire on single bank (4, 5 & 6)

Hi Ladies and Gents,

(2008 328i E92, with 55K on the clock)

There has been many articles published about multiple misfires, I think I have read them all!!

Any help in my particular issue would be very much appreciated!!!

My car started playing up about 2 months ago, here is the problem

In neutral and revving the car (above 2K RPM) < all is fine.
When I drive the car and exceed 2K RPM The car starts to miss fire and the clever BMW shuts down cylinders. In fact all 3.
It is always the same 2nd bank i.e 4, 5, & 6
Issue happens hot or cold (I live in LA so never really cold)

Shutting down the engine and removing the key OR clearing the errors fixes the issue until I go over 2K RPM again.

What I have tried

Replaced both VANOS valves (they were sticking and cleaning did not solve)
Shuffled the Plugs and Coils
Removed and cleaned all injectors (but left in same order) < no leaks and all fine.

I really do not want to throw money at this without first understanding the problem, there is no more errors other than the misfire.

Thanks in advance,

Adrian
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2014, 05:22 PM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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More information needed. Do you have a scanner and have you accessed BMW specific codes?

Otherwise we are all guessing, like this guess: Three cylinders in one bank and you've eliminated coils, plugs and (probably) injectors. My guess is bad Air Fuel ratio sensor. Or bad ground connection. Or plugged cat. I could go on. See what I mean?

Last edited by DSXMachina; 11-25-2014 at 05:23 PM.
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Old 11-25-2014, 06:45 PM
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CALWATERBOY DUE CALWATERBOY DUE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian.crowther View Post
Removed and cleaned all injectors (but left in same order) < no leaks and all fine.

I really do not want to throw money at this without first understanding the problem, there is no more errors other than the misfire.

Ah, but how do you know there are no other errors? Be aware not all errors show on the dash - you see all with a BMW capable reader, NOT Autozone fer Crissakes!

Yep, it's been said many times, many ways....

To read all the codes
Is very bold
The info will bring
Ya in from the cold

Dude! Holiday season's bringin' on a Haiku....don't get me started....

You know what to do about injector/plug troubleshooting.

.

Last edited by CALWATERBOY DUE; 11-30-2014 at 10:14 AM.
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Old 11-26-2014, 03:59 AM
fdriller9 fdriller9 is offline
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My bet is the up stream o2 is bad on that bank.
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:03 AM
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Originally Posted by fdriller9 View Post
My bet is the up stream o2 is bad on that bank.
Yep. And a graphing scanner would show that in seconds. Seems he would have a CEL for that with STFT locked at max adaptation. Are you thinking the A:F is signalling rich and he's ending up with a lean miss?
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Old 11-26-2014, 01:06 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Hey thanks guys for the quick response.

I have INPA, DIS so I can identify the errors. However they are just the standard 4, nothing else is logged.

Misfire cylinder 4
misfire cylinder 5
misfire cylinder 6
multiple misfire

O2 seems plausible since you have one for each bank even if nothing has been logged. I used INPA and analogue measurements to look at the levels reported from each o2 sensor, all seem within tolerance.

I 100% agree I need to log this. I haven't found if DIS or INPA can log, I assume not. Is there a software product you recommend that I can add to INPA?

Happy holidays chaps, and thanks again for your help!

Cheers,

A

Last edited by adrian.crowther; 11-27-2014 at 10:20 AM.
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Old 11-26-2014, 01:27 PM
fdriller9 fdriller9 is offline
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Yep. And a graphing scanner would show that in seconds. Seems he would have a CEL for that with STFT locked at max adaptation. Are you thinking the A:F is signalling rich and he's ending up with a lean miss?
My experience in situations like this is exactly as you describe. The few cars I've seen having this issue were not running rich.

Even though there is no fault stored in the DME, the O2 ended up being the culprit. We chased our tails swapping different parts out.

INPA can log but you need to write your own scripts and compile them with INPACOMP.exe, which can be found in you INPA, BIN folder.

The documentation included with INPA goes over how to write your own scripts and compile them. There is also a thread floating around on one of the E46 forums. It's not a DIY thread but there is some discussion about using INPA for logging.
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Old 11-26-2014, 04:39 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Thank again chaps.

I will read up on the INPA logging and I have already started to decrypt DSXMachina message (its the way I learn).

If I get lost or lazy I assume replacing the O2 sensor would be the resolution to this? Would it be worth swapping them over or am I simply being cheap!

I think you are both correct but I do want to throw out one more question, since the car had been sitting for 3+ months before the issue started. Could the issue be fuel related, I was thinking fuel pumps or a blocked fuel rail? I have ran through a few tanks of gas since so its not stale.

Also to note is that it is always all three cyliders (together) never seen only one of two cylinder misfires.

Thanks again,

Adrian
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Old 11-26-2014, 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted by fdriller9 View Post
My experience in situations like this is exactly as you describe. The few cars I've seen having this issue were not running rich.

Interesting to me - a sensor fouled to inhibit oxygen sensing on the exhaust side would signal a rich mix if I understand how this works. Therefore the actual mix would be lean.

A partially fouled sensor might show in-spec mix yet be lean enough to cause a misfire.

So. A failing O2 sensor's inaccurate enough to cause mystery misfire, but not hit the limit, which If hit I'm guessing would cause an O2 sensor fault.

How'd I do boys?
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:19 AM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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First off a big thank you for DSXMachina and fdriller9 for your guidance in this, you have both been very helpful!

@calwaterboy< I would agree with your statement. Inaccurate O2 showing lean would add more fuel with STFT and LTFT (making the car rich), 02 Showing rich would reduce fuel making the car lean. I am not sure when the O2 would throw a error some say its + or - 15%.

I have done a ton of reading on this. There is a great video on youtube from ScannerDanner that shows how O2, STFT and LTFT are interlocked and the effects of a vacuum leak, carb clean in the air intake, faulty O2 Sensor and a broken cable. Well worth the watch if you have 50 minutes.

Correct me if I am wrong but at idle the system is open loop (which is why idle is fine), what concerns me is at full open throttle (FOT) it also does not use the O2 sensor so it should also be fine. Does peddle to the floor mean FOT or is FOT full RPM? Reason for asking is pedal flat down with load (not in neutral) causes the issue instantaneously, making me think the O2 Sensor is not the issue!

Next Steps

Looking at articles posted the readings on INPA I need are Lambda integrator 1 & 2 for STFT, then Adaptation Value Additive 1 & 2 and Adaptation Value Multiplicative 1 & 2 for LTFT. Next job is to understand the two LTFT readings, why two AND the weird values used in INPA for percentage shifts.

As discussed I will map these and the O2 sensor readings either by building a logger with INPA or I may have a play with the software app pheno built - http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...ime-graph-view

Will post pictures of the graphs for future reference.

Interesting to note is I struggle to get 20 MPG, no black smoke but this is also adding fuel to the fire (no pun intended that my car is probably running rich)

Thanks guys,

Happy Thanks Giving!

A

Last edited by adrian.crowther; 11-27-2014 at 10:16 AM.
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Old 11-27-2014, 09:30 AM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Actually I was wrong in the previous post.

This article explains it better
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...-fuel-trim.pdf

From a post in M5 forum...

T(t) = target injector open time (msec)
T(a) = actual injector open time (msec)
LTFT = additive adaptation value (msec)
STFT = multiplicative adaptation value (%)

T(t) is based on a lookup indexed by MAF, throttle, etc - also the open loop value

T(a) = LTFT + T(t) * [1+ STFT]

LTFT and STFT are being dynamically adjusted all the time using some algorithm based on the O2 sensor readings

Lambda Integrator = [ T(a) - T(t) ] / T(t)

In other words, Lamba Integrator is an instantaneous measure of how the DME is attempting to adjust the fuel trim.

The terms short term and long term probably refer to the algorithm used to compute those values. Based on my observations, the STFT (multiplicative adaptation) reacts faster to the observed trim (O2 sensor readings).

In summary

"These altered injection rates are known as Long Term Fuel Trim
(LTFT) Additive and Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) Multiplicative."

Now that I think about it, I think the point to note, that I was missing myself, is that it's called a "Short term fuel trim multiplicative", and is a type of long-term fuel trim. It's not called the "short term fuel trim". The "short term fuel trim" as the rest of the world knows it, is the lamdaintegrator. If BMW called the lambdaintegrator the "short term fuel trim" like the rest of the automotive world does, then we, or I, wouldn't be confusing the "short term fuel trim multiplicative" with it. Perhaps they should have called it the "lambdaintegrator multiplicative".

Cheers,

A

Last edited by adrian.crowther; 11-27-2014 at 10:12 AM.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:35 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian.crowther View Post
O2 seems plausible since you have one for each bank even if nothing has been logged. I used INPA and analogue measurements to look at the levels reported from each o2 sensor, all seem within tolerance.


Cheers,

A
Hi Adrian. Back when those upstream sensors were really oxygen sensors then it was easy to tell if they were working correctly. The signal would ping pong back and forth between .200 V and .800V, changing direction every few seconds. A bad sensor wouldn't "switch", it would stay at one value, for instance, .504 V.
What you have is a double walled platinum tipped sensor which measures air/fuel ratio. It is a far more precise and useful signal to the engine management computer. Instead of a ping pong signal it will show a very narrow band of variability. Instead of a range of 600 millivolts the entire range might be only 10 to 50 millivolts. There's the problem...
You say the signal is within range. Right. But is it the correct signal? Even I have a hard time figuring that out and I have access to all kinds of empirical data and 'case studies' from thousands of techs around the world. Compounding the problem is the fact that different OEMs have different values which mean different things. BMW's 1.22V can mean exactly the same thing as Toyota's 3.4V!
Fdriller would be a better source than me to advise on what signal value would be normal for a properly running engine, and what value might be found with a bad mixture such as yours may have. Either way, they could be within "tolerance", capisce?
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:59 AM
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DSXMachina DSXMachina is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by adrian.crowther View Post
Actually I was wrong in the previous post.

This article explains it better
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/att...-fuel-trim.pdf

From a post in M5 forum...

T(t) = target injector open time (msec)
T(a) = actual injector open time (msec)
LTFT = additive adaptation value (msec)
STFT = multiplicative adaptation value (%)

T(t) is based on a lookup indexed by MAF, throttle, etc - also the open loop value

T(a) = LTFT + T(t) * [1+ STFT]

LTFT and STFT are being dynamically adjusted all the time using some algorithm based on the O2 sensor readings

Lambda Integrator = [ T(a) - T(t) ] / T(t)

In other words, Lamba Integrator is an instantaneous measure of how the DME is attempting to adjust the fuel trim.

The terms short term and long term probably refer to the algorithm used to compute those values. Based on my observations, the STFT (multiplicative adaptation) reacts faster to the observed trim (O2 sensor readings).

In summary

"These altered injection rates are known as Long Term Fuel Trim
(LTFT) Additive and Short Term Fuel Trim (STFT) Multiplicative."

Now that I think about it, I think the point to note, that I was missing myself, is that it's called a "Short term fuel trim multiplicative", and is a type of long-term fuel trim. It's not called the "short term fuel trim". The "short term fuel trim" as the rest of the world knows it, is the lamdaintegrator. If BMW called the lambdaintegrator the "short term fuel trim" like the rest of the automotive world does, then we, or I, wouldn't be confusing the "short term fuel trim multiplicative" with it. Perhaps they should have called it the "lambdaintegrator multiplicative".

Cheers,

A
Whoa...my head is spinning. You are making this a little too complicated. STFT is what the computer is doing right now to try and hit a stoichiometric mixture (the theoretical and slightly variable "perfect mix" of air and gasoline). Example: You see that STFT is -15% on B1 and +5% on B2 (yes, the computer adjusts by bank and some are so smart they adjust by cylinder!). What that means is that the computer has cut the injection time on B1 by 15% and increased injection time on B2 by 5%. It is doing this because a few milliseconds ago the upstream sensors indicated that if it did this the mix would be closer to perfect.
LTFT is different. It is what the computer is doing based on long term data, and causes a shift in the look up data to accommodate engine and component wear over time. Example: You see a -2% value. This would indicate that the computer has learned that there may be (for example) injector pintle wear which allows more fuel to flow in a given pulse time. So even though the engineers in Munich (actually Bosch smart persons wherever Bosch is located) set the algorithms up for an 11 millisecond pulse at a given engine temperature, air temperature, octane, manifold pressure, barometric pressure, engine load, pedal position, etc. the computer says that if it backs the fuel off by -2% all the time, then the perfect air fuel mix is more likely. It then uses LTFT as the baseline instead of the values in the read only memory algorithms. STFT then adjusts LTFT, but interestingly LTFT will eventually move based on consistent STFT over a longer period of time.

Simple.
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Old 11-29-2014, 09:18 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Hi Adrian. Back when those upstream sensors were really oxygen sensors then it was easy to tell if they were working correctly. The signal would ping pong back and forth between .200 V and .800V, changing direction every few seconds. A bad sensor wouldn't "switch", it would stay at one value, for instance, .504 V.
What you have is a double walled platinum tipped sensor which measures air/fuel ratio. It is a far more precise and useful signal to the engine management computer. Instead of a ping pong signal it will show a very narrow band of variability. Instead of a range of 600 millivolts the entire range might be only 10 to 50 millivolts. There's the problem...
You say the signal is within range. Right. But is it the correct signal? Even I have a hard time figuring that out and I have access to all kinds of empirical data and 'case studies' from thousands of techs around the world. Compounding the problem is the fact that different OEMs have different values which mean different things. BMW's 1.22V can mean exactly the same thing as Toyota's 3.4V!
Fdriller would be a better source than me to advise on what signal value would be normal for a properly running engine, and what value might be found with a bad mixture such as yours may have. Either way, they could be within "tolerance", capisce?
Thanks DSXMachina, I did read online that all sensors are not alike, even between models on BMW.

My assumption was that the O2 sensor in Bank 1 is OK. Therefore if I compare bank 1 and Bank 2 simultaneously with INPA and they act similarly then I can say they are within tolerance.

The good news is today I hammered my car in the garage (in neutral) and I did make it fail! In addition to this I think I saw the O2 sensor in Bank 2 going crazy at high rev's at the time of the misfire, it was very quick and impossible to capture. What I am unsure of is if the sensor caused the misfire or the misfire caused the bad O2 sensor reading.

I have installed test-o and got it working (its a very nice tool by the way). I hope to graph this shortly. I just need to translate all the German monitor options into English so I know how to log the O2, Lambda, LTFT, RPM and injection timing all together.

Should not be long now...

Thank again for your help, I have learnt so much from your guidance and reading on the net. I hope this conversation helps others in the future.

Cheers,

A
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Old 11-30-2014, 06:40 AM
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What you saw and was "quick and impossible to capture" is why we have glitch capture on our graphing devices. Their purpose is to freeze those transients for later analysis. Very often it is the glitches that cause the computer to panic when it sees implausible data and decide to do nothing rather than the wrong thing.
Glitches are most often seen in ABS systems which as you can imagine instantly result in system shutdown and an ABS warning light. Fortunately ABS systems are relatively easy to diagnose once data streams are observed. Engine management glitches are a little more difficult to diagnose.
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Old 11-30-2014, 10:16 AM
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What you saw and was "quick and impossible to capture" is why we have glitch capture on our graphing devices. Their purpose is to freeze those transients for later analysis. Very often it is the glitches that cause the computer to panic when it sees implausible data and decide to do nothing rather than the wrong thing.
Glitches are most often seen in ABS systems which as you can imagine instantly result in system shutdown and an ABS warning light. Fortunately ABS systems are relatively easy to diagnose once data streams are observed. Engine management glitches are a little more difficult to diagnose.

Do you use an triggered oscilloscope?
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:42 PM
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Do you use an triggered oscilloscope?
Of course! Several. I can set any limit I want and anything over that will be captured and saved. I can graph 8 parameters simultaneously though rarely do more than four and two of those will usually be simple such as temperature and rpm.
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Old 11-30-2014, 12:52 PM
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Of course! Several. I can set any limit I want and anything over that will be captured and saved. I can graph 8 parameters simultaneously though rarely do more than four and two of those will usually be simple such as temperature and rpm.

Folks, here it is! An OBDII reader is good....very good....but not a diagnostic tool. Given direction, a scope tells you what's happening at a low level.

Yes! Winnows wheat from chaff.
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Old 11-30-2014, 01:13 PM
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You don't even need a OBDII reader! But you need at least a cable.

Download this software for free and connect your favorite laptop/W8.1 tablet.
http://bimmersoftware.com/bmwlogger

It worked for me and I actually made a donation.

I had an O2 sensor replaced on the 2nd bank. It is a PITA to reach. You need a BMW special tool. I also changed it with a NTK (NGK) aftermarket one... err! To finally clear the codes, I had to get an OEM one. That came much more expensive that one would thing for a mere O2 sensor.
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Old 12-01-2014, 05:28 AM
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You don't even need a OBDII reader! But you need at least a cable.

Download this software for free and connect your favorite laptop/W8.1 tablet.
http://bimmersoftware.com/bmwlogger

It worked for me and I actually made a donation.

I had an O2 sensor replaced on the 2nd bank. It is a PITA to reach. You need a BMW special tool. I also changed it with a NTK (NGK) aftermarket one... err! To finally clear the codes, I had to get an OEM one. That became much more expensive that one would think for a mere O2 sensor.
That's 'cuz it's not an O2 sensor. It's an air fuel ratio sensor which uses twice as much platinum, has two separate structural walls rather than one, and is a much more complex device.
Aftermarket sensors, like aftermarket catalytic converters can be chancy. NGK is usually good, but I've had a few baddies. Bosch has never meant having to say you're sorry.
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Old 12-16-2014, 03:15 PM
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Thanks guys, sorry for the delay. My car has taken a back seat with work and holidays etc. I will give the BMW logger a go as well as the test-O tool over the weekend. Talk soon. Cheers. Adrian
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Old 01-09-2015, 02:22 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Hey Guys,

Happy New year to you!

I gave up trying to log the error (just too quick) and instead bought a new O2 Sensor (Bosh 17099) wideband sensor.

When installing it I did noticed that it looks like it has been replaced previously (grey colored wire instead of the stock black wire). I noticed that the old one had a serial of "1928404682" this is different to what most parts sites say. Correct is "11787558073" or the Bosh 17099.

Unfortunately replacing the sensor (the hard to reach one at the back of the engine bay) has NOT resolved the issue. At FOT the engine causes the same multiple misfire (just bank 2).

Assumptions... therefore questions

I could not find anywhere on the web mentioning the need to code the car for the sensor, even if I changed serials numbers (see above)
I only replaced the sensor 1 bank 2 (pre cat bank 2) Sensor. I understand its best to replace both pre cat (sensor 1) sensors but I am just trying to save some dollars. Would a faulty "sensor 1 bank 1" or "sensor 2 bank 2" cause the misfire?
I am ruling our fuel pumps due to only one bank.

Before I concede defeat and take this to a garage, any last ideas that would cause this? Would a hole in the manifold, intakes blocked or worse, a crack in the head cause this?

Thanks in advance,

Adrian

Last edited by adrian.crowther; 01-10-2015 at 10:03 AM.
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Old 01-09-2015, 06:09 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Finally got some logging

OK, so I used Testo and looked at the lambda readings and injector timing. This log was done by revving the engine 0 to 6000 several times.

I am not seeing much wrong with this (unless I am missing something)

Cheers,

A
Attached Files
File Type: pdf scan.pdf (383.7 KB, 22 views)

Last edited by adrian.crowther; 01-09-2015 at 06:18 PM.
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Old 01-15-2015, 06:17 AM
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Hello, nice to see someone uses Test-O :-)

I can see from your logs that actual lambda value for lambda1 and lambda2 is much different than setpoint. This must cause the problem.

I suspect you might have intake leak somewhere..

I would monitor lambda bank1 graph with TestO while spraying carb cleaner at all intake areas - look for crackes hoses etc.. usual areas. If the actual lambda value shown by Testo changes while spraying -- bingo, right there must be leak.

Does your car use high pressure pump.. you could monitor pressure to see if it stays steady.

Thanks.
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  #25  
Old 01-17-2015, 12:51 PM
adrian.crowther adrian.crowther is offline
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Location: Manhattan Beach
 
Join Date: May 2013
Posts: 16
Mein Auto: 328i
Thanks for the feedback Phenoboy.

From what I have read, only the 335 has the high pressure fuel pump, this in fact caused a mass recall in 2010 (130,000 cars).

Unfortunately I do not have a fuel pressure tester, I wonder if there is a sensor for me to measure this electronically?
Other option is to do a DIY tweak on an old Brake bleeding tool and use that to measure the PSI (I assume it should be around 75 PSI).

I will try your suggestion with carb cleaner today to see what happens. A cracked hose seems plausible and I will focus my efforts there. Intake gasket would be another location but since this issue is not affected by heat I think its doubtful (I would assume).

Cheers,

Adrian
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