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  #51  
Old 07-11-2012, 11:07 AM
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This is hillarious. Let's charge Babe Ruth with performance enhancing cigars next!
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  #52  
Old 07-11-2012, 11:39 AM
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A couple of things I lean on when trying to make an intelligent decision:
- Tyler Hamilton argued vehemently that he did NOT take PEDs, claimed it was his chimeric twin, digestested in the womb and that he absorbed that DNA. In all other areas, Hamilton was a man of incredible character, meaning a lot us considered lending credence to his story. Then he backtracked, admitted to using drugs and ruined a lot of credibility.

- Floyd Landis published a really good book detailing the inherent flaws of the appeal system if an athlete is accused or found to have doped. Very relevant points about a pretty messed up system that operates differently than tort courts. But then he totally vaporized his credibility when he backtracked and also admitted to using PEDs. But were the points about the flawed system and testing procedures highlighted in the book also lies? Don't know.

- Both are witnesses against Armstrong with very suspect motives. Armstrong may have done worlds for cancer victims, but no one can deny he is an epic @sshole who has a demonstrated record of pushing away everyone close to him except for his mother and Johan Bruyneel. Maybe former teammates really just can't stand him and would like to see him eat some humble pie. But at the risk of perjury? Tough one.

- Armstrong was a PROFESSIONAL triathlete at 16. Pro. Triathlete. 16. Not exactly some slouch who took up P90X and completed a marathon as a mid-life crisis goal. The guy has a natural inclination to destroy all things requiring insane endurance.

Battered credibility of former teammates. No proof-positive testing results (yes, debatable wrt Tour de Suisse). Undeniably gifted athlete. Epic a-hole. These factors all muddy the water substantially in the court of public opinion. But the court of LAW is what we are talking about.
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  #53  
Old 07-11-2012, 12:04 PM
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No proof-positive testing results (yes, debatable wrt Tour de Suisse).
Not quite correct. Blood testing utilizing his biological passport is where the second positive has come in. His hematocrit jumped during the last tour he rode potentially due to a transfusion.

Can't blame that on a good steak like ol Bertie tried.

Much of the evidence has come out of the Department of Justice Investigation along with testimony from six former or current teammates including Hincapie, Vaughters, and Hamilton. They are all facing suspension as well.

Sorry to disagree, but the Tour de Suisse was a positive but covered up by LA and his team with the UCI's complicity.

The UCI needs to go. Fat Pat is a cancer to cycling as Eclestone is to F1.
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  #54  
Old 07-11-2012, 12:17 PM
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Admittedly, i need to do more digging into the allegations of the UCIs cover up at the Tour de Suisse. But is this openly proven, or emotionally-charged beliefs of cycling fans? Be honest...'cause I'd like to know the truth of the truth has been revealed.

I'm a huge Hincapie fan. His testimony could be the golden arrow for a prosecution. His reputation of integrity and character is well-founded without the smudges of others. I really hope he hasn't done anything to screw up, because I'm running out of pro athletes to believe can succeed, morally.

But I'm still torn on Armstrong. There's a part that just wants believe in something great like his story. But my profession has long since shown me the world is full of wolves and cheats. I'm not waxing cynical on society, but I know reality vs fantasy.
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  #55  
Old 07-11-2012, 12:25 PM
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I'm trying to find a reason to give a damn if and when an athlete takes drugs.

Failed.
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  #56  
Old 07-11-2012, 12:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dork Knight View Post
Admittedly, i need to do more digging into the allegations of the UCIs cover up at the Tour de Suisse. But is this openly proven, or emotionally-charged beliefs of cycling fans? Be honest...'cause I'd like to know the truth of the truth has been revealed.

I'm a huge Hincapie fan. His testimony could be the golden arrow for a prosecution. His reputation of integrity and character is well-founded without the smudges of others. I really hope he hasn't done anything to screw up, because I'm running out of pro athletes to believe can succeed, morally.

But I'm still torn on Armstrong. There's a part that just wants believe in something great like his story. But my profession has long since shown me the world is full of wolves and cheats. I'm not waxing cynical on society, but I know reality vs fantasy.
This is what my quick search came up with.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2012/...for-now_227768

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/swis...uspect-samples

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/mcqu...ons-to-the-uci
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  #57  
Old 07-11-2012, 07:11 PM
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I'm trying to find a reason to give a damn if and when an athlete takes drugs.

Failed.


They're entertainers. Don't care if Downey is drunk when he plays Ironman and don't care if Lance was on the juice when he rode the tour de france. Just amuse me...
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  #58  
Old 07-11-2012, 08:12 PM
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I'm trying to find a reason to give a damn if and when an athlete takes drugs.

Failed.
Its important to the people that depend on athletes being role models to their kids instead of raising the kids themselves.

Still, I don't want to watch an event were someone has to do serious long term damage to themselves to win - I don't watch boxing or AFV for the same reasons.
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  #59  
Old 07-11-2012, 09:40 PM
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Its important to the people that depend on athletes being role models to their kids instead of raising the kids themselves.

Still, I don't want to watch an event were someone has to do serious long term damage to themselves to win - I don't watch boxing or AFV for the same reasons.
Good grief, people who depend on athletes to be role models for their kids are doing their kids an incredible disservice already. This is like letting your kids watch commercials without explaining the mechanics of advertising or letting your kid go to McDonald's.

The person doing "serious longterm damage" is doing it by choice to make obscene amounts of money. Part of those big bucks involve an effort to get paid by advertisers by pretending to be associated with the very odious products all people should have the sense to avoid. Reminds me of the way fans turned on tiger woods for being a whore. As if he hadn't been whoring himself out for the PGA, Nike, Gatorade and Buick for years! "Be like Tiger, kids... oh wait he likes the sex quite a bit...no Tiger is bad, kids. If he just tried to get you to wear certain clothes, a buy a watch, drive a car and eat certain foods he's A-OK..."
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  #60  
Old 07-12-2012, 04:21 AM
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There has been a lot of suspicion, and many questionable events surrounding the issue, but so far, there has been no proof positive of a failed test from the Tour d Swiss made public. If it does exist, and it comes out in the LA vs USADA hearing, it will destroy the entire pro cycling hierarchy.
As to cyclists risking their future health, the smart ones aren't just winging it. The doping programs are administered by knowledgeable doctors. Doped cyclists are stronger, fitter, recover better and can go harder with less damage than clean cyclists. And when they stop doping, they go back to being normal people without any issues. Unlike someone abusing steroids at a young age who may develop complications like, oh maybe, testicular cancer just to name one example.
I find it numerous that LA's argument against USADA seems to be " the system is unfair and I'm above the rules anyway." when LA signed his racing license, he agreed to abide by all rules and decisions of the governing body, including decisions of USADA and WADA. Just the same as a lowly amateur like myself when I signed my license. The argent that it's unconstitutional and a violation of my rights has been tried and failed in doping cases before. Looks like LA's lawyer is running out of ideas.
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  #61  
Old 07-12-2012, 05:54 AM
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- you lot who don't give a damn about PEDs - the rules prohibit them - these idiots are CHEATS - the whole thing is, you want your kids to look up to CHEATS?!? Forget the whore/endorsement issue - your kids need to have a lesson in cheats prospering according to you... that's freaking BULLSH!T imo.

If you want your kids to take lessons from cheats, they may hurt no-one - on the other hand, they may go the Bernie Madoff route - and if they do, and people get hurt, I hope you end up visiting them in Federal prisons until *you* die.

Cheats are cheats - they should NOT prosper... ask Bernie Madoff if cheating works out for him??

If you want a juicers race, start your own federation of juiced athletes and see how far that goes... knowing how some of you reacted, I suspect it will get a good following of sheeple - I won't be one of them, and nor will my kids/grandkids - because even though you seem to view it as pure entertainment, I consider it to be sick and twisted, and imo, no good will come from it - cheating is cheating, and a league of cheats all cheating against each other is not sport - it is parody.



(comparing Tiger's antics with women to cheating in the game is similar but not the same - he had a clean persona as a role-model and he wasn't living up to it - yes, I'll grant you he wasn't living up to the squeaky clean image and that was leading a double life perhaps, but he wasn't cheating at golf).
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  #62  
Old 07-12-2012, 06:43 AM
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The dopers have outwitted the system for years. What has changed is the controlled use of PED's like EPO and activogen to improve performance as opposed to idiots like Ben Johnson taking roods and getting caught at the Olympics. The chances of getting caught using roids is too great these days due to improved testing and I doubt many cyclists use them other than when they are in your favourite steak. SInce the system cannot or will not enforce the rules, I think they need to allow certain aspects of PED's to become tolerable. Say, establish an upper bound on the athlete's hematocrit. If you are over that limit, you're out, permanently. That might get their attention.

There was the case when a WADA tester arrived at LA's home unexpectedly and LA took a shower while Johaan shot the sh!t with the guy while LA took a shower before giving a urine sample.

the SKY team this year looks too good to be true. Four guys out front of Wiggo on the col de la Madelaine today?
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  #63  
Old 07-12-2012, 08:00 AM
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- you lot who don't give a damn about PEDs - the rules prohibit them - these idiots are CHEATS - the whole thing is, you want your kids to look up to CHEATS?!? Forget the whore/endorsement issue - your kids need to have a lesson in cheats prospering according to you... that's freaking BULLSH!T imo.
1. Cheaters do prosper - sad but true fact of life.
2. Rules are only of value if they can be enforced. Like speed limits, people break rules all the time.
2. Kid should not be instructed to look up to random people on TV/sports/movies (all entertainers).

Quote:
If you want a juicers race, start your own federation of juiced athletes and see how far that goes... knowing how some of you reacted, I suspect it will get a good following of sheeple - I won't be one of them, and nor will my kids/grandkids - because even though you seem to view it as pure entertainment, I consider it to be sick and twisted, and imo, no good will come from it - cheating is cheating, and a league of cheats all cheating against each other is not sport - it is parody.
There is no such as a pro sport presented to you because it's a glorious display of human conditioning. It's all business. Don't delude yourself into believing what you see is some sort of noble pursuit of the pinnacle of athleticism. It isn't. None of it is. They're selling product just like Toyota sells cars. So LA using drugs only taints the concept of cycling if you still live in this fantasy that the TDF exists to celebrate cycling. The riders are plastered with ads. It's on TV - more ads. They promote the hell out of the event and the popular riders - more ads. Cultivate an image and sell it.

Tiger got in trouble for the same reason people are flipping about Barry Bonds and LA: they believed the lie of image.

We live in a media age. What is on TV, in print, on the Internet should all be viewed with a massive dose of skepticism. It's crafted to sell and has no relation to anything positive. You may love a sport but don't confuse your time spent on a bike with the artifice on TV.

So you ask about kids and role models, my son at 3 knows when he sees a commercial, which is rare as we watch little TV and time-shift it when we do, that everything on TV is fake. We repeat the mantra over and over to him: commercials are lies. As he gets older we'll teach him to read media, interpret the real message behind "news" and understand it's all done to drive $$$$. He already gets all TV and movies are fake. There is no such thing as a monster or a spider-man or a hero football player. If it's on TV, it's fake... even documentaries...
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  #64  
Old 07-12-2012, 09:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brkf View Post
1. Cheaters do prosper - sad but true fact of life.
2. Rules are only of value if they can be enforced. Like speed limits, people break rules all the time.
2. Kid should not be instructed to look up to random people on TV/sports/movies (all entertainers).



There is no such as a pro sport presented to you because it's a glorious display of human conditioning. It's all business. Don't delude yourself into believing what you see is some sort of noble pursuit of the pinnacle of athleticism. It isn't. None of it is. They're selling product just like Toyota sells cars. So LA using drugs only taints the concept of cycling if you still live in this fantasy that the TDF exists to celebrate cycling. The riders are plastered with ads. It's on TV - more ads. They promote the hell out of the event and the popular riders - more ads. Cultivate an image and sell it.

Tiger got in trouble for the same reason people are flipping about Barry Bonds and LA: they believed the lie of image.

We live in a media age. What is on TV, in print, on the Internet should all be viewed with a massive dose of skepticism. It's crafted to sell and has no relation to anything positive. You may love a sport but don't confuse your time spent on a bike with the artifice on TV.

So you ask about kids and role models, my son at 3 knows when he sees a commercial, which is rare as we watch little TV and time-shift it when we do, that everything on TV is fake. We repeat the mantra over and over to him: commercials are lies. As he gets older we'll teach him to read media, interpret the real message behind "news" and understand it's all done to drive $$$$. He already gets all TV and movies are fake. There is no such thing as a monster or a spider-man or a hero football player. If it's on TV, it's fake... even documentaries...
+1 Sad but true. Sports are about the almighty dollar.
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  #65  
Old 07-12-2012, 09:34 AM
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It's nothing more than a witch hunt. Are there no statues of limitations? He has never tested positive so they give a 6 month ban to his team mates to get the testimony they want to hear.

Do I believe that he was dirty..hell yes, but then so was everyone else. They are IMO singling him out
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  #66  
Old 07-12-2012, 01:35 PM
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It's nothing more than a witch hunt. Are there no statues of limitations? He has never tested positive so they give a 6 month ban to his team mates to get the testimony they want to hear.

Do I believe that he was dirty..hell yes, but then so was everyone else. They are IMO singling him out
I agree that it seems like they are singling him out.

I don't think we'll ever know if he was really juicing or not, especially if they keep giving those who might have seen it a benefit to say so. I would imagine many of those cyclist would view 6 months off, at the right time a year, a good opportunity to train and get in even better form when the alternative is to go through what LA is going through.

It sure would make things interesting if an old urine/blood sample from LA turned up (and it was usable for testing)
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  #67  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:22 PM
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/24/sp...mid=fb-nytimes

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Armstrong Drops Fight Against Doping Charges

After more than a decade of outrunning accusations that he had doped during his celebrated cycling career, Lance Armstrong, one of the best-known and accomplished athletes in recent history, surrendered on Thursday, etching a dark mark on his legacy by ending his fight against charges that he used performance-enhancing drugs.

Armstrong, who won the Tour de France an unprecedented seven straight times, said Thursday that he would not continue to fight the charges levied against him by the United States Anti-Doping Agency, which contended that he doped and was one of the ringleaders of systematic doping on his Tour-winning teams.

"There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, 'Enough is enough,' " Armstrong said in a statement.

"The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for our foundation and on me leads me to where I am today - finished with this nonsense."

His decision means he will be stripped of his seven Tour titles, the bronze medal he won at the 2000 Olympics and all other titles, awards and money he won from August 1998 on.

It also means he will be barred for life from competing, coaching or having any official role with any Olympic sport or other sport that follows the World Anti-Doping Code.

Such an implosion of an athletic career has been common in cycling in recent years, as doping has crippled the sport. Several recent Tour de France champions have been found guilty of doping, including Floyd Landis and the two-time winner Alberto Contador. But none of them had the stature of Armstrong.

Although it is likely that the International Cycling Union, the world's governing body for cycling, will appeal his suspension to the Court of Arbitration for Sport, Armstrong's choice to accept his sanction tarnishes the athletic achievements of an athlete who inspired millions with his story of cancer survival.

Armstrong, a brash Texan who turns 41 next month, was already a world-champion cyclist when he was found to have testicular cancer in 1996, at 25. He had a razor-thin chance of survival, but pushed ahead to beat the disease.
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  #68  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:46 PM
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Armstrong, a brash Texan who turns 41 next month, was already a world-champion cyclist when he was found to have testicular cancer in 1996, at 25. He had a razor-thin chance of survival, but pushed ahead to beat the disease.
This is not going to end. They are going to accuse him of cheating death and strip him of winning his fight against cancer.
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  #69  
Old 08-23-2012, 08:51 PM
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2yrs of this crap and they still can't prove it! They need to leave him alone. Stop looking for ish that's just not there.
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  #70  
Old 08-24-2012, 06:52 AM
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If they're going to harass Lance to this point, they better pursue every other possible 'blood doper' with the same prosecutorial zeal.
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  #71  
Old 08-24-2012, 07:40 AM
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Congratulations to Jan Ullrich for his wins in the 2000, 2001 and 2003 Tours De France.
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  #72  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:19 AM
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... Like so many other entertainers i do not understand our culture's obsession with destroying them. ....
+1!
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  #73  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:29 AM
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Apparently, if you beat a dead horse long enough....

My guess is USADA told Lance what the witnesses were going to say and he knew it was over.

This way he can continue to lie and deny to himself, and the rest of us can draw whatever conclusions we want.

Lance likes to claim that he is the most tested athlete ever and that he never failed a test.

Both of these statements are untrue.

Marion Jones is actually the wearer of that crown and we all know how that story ended.


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  #74  
Old 08-24-2012, 08:55 AM
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Maybe they are pissed off because he has beat their testing system every time. I personally don't care about the doping, everyone of those teams was doing the same. What I care about is what he has done for US pro-cycling and bicycling in general in the US.
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Old 08-24-2012, 09:32 AM
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He should just admit the drug use. Giving up all his awards is pathetic. The truth is before all the evidence comes crashing down, he's dropping out and will play the role of victim before things destroy his reputation any further.
This reminds me of the white collar criminals who give a portion of their stolen money to charity as a reason to love them.

Lance, just say "I did drugs like a lot of people, I'm sorry for that but I've also done a lot of good too". At least we could respect you more.
Just my 2 cents
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