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7 Series - E38 (1995 - 2001)

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  #1  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:18 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Mein Auto: 740il 1998
Battery dead / draining

In midwinter , the vehicle would not start and battery tested low / dead.
Placed overnite trickle charge and car immediately started next day.

24-48 hours later , no start, Battery test resulted : low / dead batttery .
Recharged and everything worked well for past 4 months.

Adavance Auto did a free battery / alternator test .
Result : Passed AOK .

Last week, no start and found low / dead battery .
Trickle charge overnite . Resulted in immediate startup.

Immediately drove car 100 miles, single trip with full battery charge at start.
Guessing that alternator continued doing its fine job as Advance Auto had tested it be AOK.

Parked 4 hours , restarted immediately, return drive 100 miles , turned off for 5 minutes ,
then no start .
Required battery jump start .

Have trickle charged for 15 hours to show FULL battery charge.
Immediate start.

Suspected a battery drain to be the issue .
Followed the steps listed in this forum to isolate a battery drain via:
lock car
screwdriver in trunk lid to fool the trunk light circuit
Waited 16 minutes for system to shutdown .
Hooked up ammeter to quantify battery drain and removed NEG ground strap.
RESULT : high amps on the needle vs . 50 micro amps as per forum / textbook article.

Tried to isolate the circuit by pulling fuses in trunk area and engine bay .

Pulled all fuses in trunk near battery . Still large amps drain .
Replaced fuses.
Pulled all fuses in engine fuse block . Still large amps drain .
Replaced fuses.
Removed the plastic black box lid held in place by 4 hex head screws that covers engine fuse block area to reveal 2 more monster fuses of either 40 or 20 amps each .
Removed those 2 fuses . Still large amps drain .
Replaced the 2 monster fuses.

Wiggled slightly upon battery (focused upon the positive terminal area to dislodge any stray possible ground pathway near positive terminal) . Still, large amp drain .

Any suggestions as to next step to isolate the drain?
I thought that the pulled fuses would break the drain pathway.

It appears that the battery is draining through another route.
Where / what?

Large amps drain on a fully charged battery leaves me dead in half day.
additionally, after the 100 mile return drive home , I figured that the alternator would max out the battery charge to FULL charge .
Why not ?
Is it siphoning faster than the recharge while highway cruising ?
Note: headlights and wipers ON, radio ON in rain storm that day.

Last edited by stilllearning6; 06-04-2011 at 01:02 PM. Reason: testing equipment not adequate , obtained better equipment
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  #2  
Old 05-29-2011, 02:21 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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I accidentally posted this in a different forum and was informed that there might be other locations of fuses : glove box area and " oddities area ".
Can someone enlighten me so I can access/check these fuses ?
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  #3  
Old 05-29-2011, 08:04 PM
Darkghost Darkghost is offline
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Had the same problem....Did all the test and it passed - battery and alternator works perfectly but battery would be dead after a day.....The culprit? Amplifier for the stereo....It was draining my battery....Disconnect or amp, charge your battery and let it sit for a day. If your car starts the next day, then you know the problem.
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Old 05-29-2011, 08:30 PM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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Few tips you might not know about them listed on Tim's website & shogun as well

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/E38_Battery_Drain.htm

http://www.meeknet.co.uk/E38/E38_Clo...rrent_Test.pdf

http://twrite.org/shogunnew/topmenu.html

A bad connection or breakage in the positive cable could be a drain source as well. Check the cables that go from alternator to starter and the jumping terminal(on the engine driver side), and also there is under the car , on the suspension frame a "junction" where the starter cable meets the alternator cable and goes to the battery. Check if is tide or if there's oil/debris on it. Isolated properly if needed. Clean relays pins if corroded, watch if the little light from the shift lever goes out after about 15 min. That's all that came in my mind for now.
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  #5  
Old 06-01-2011, 01:59 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Where / how to disconnect the amplifier for the stereo ?

Is it in the rear trunk near the CD changer ?

Is it a one connection setup to be unplugged ?
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  #6  
Old 06-01-2011, 11:05 AM
Mark@EAC Mark@EAC is offline
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may be a failed final stage unit as well, which is the resistor for the HVAC blower. They are a relatively common thing to go bad and can drain a battery in a relatively short amount of time.

What year is the 740iL?
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  #7  
Old 06-01-2011, 08:37 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Removed CD Changer and Amplifier .
Still , large amps drain.

Isolated engine bay positive jumper cable from chassis , ran my hand along as best as I could . Still has 12 amps drain.

Had infinite resistance between positive jumper cable and engine block so I believe no short to ground along positive jumper cable .

Double checked all fuses again . Still 12 amps drain.
Suspect short to ground somewhere. What next ?

Last edited by stilllearning6; 06-04-2011 at 01:03 PM. Reason: Inadequate testing equipment, obtained better equipment
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  #8  
Old 06-02-2011, 09:38 AM
Mark@EAC Mark@EAC is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilllearning6 View Post
Removed CD Changer and Amplifier .
Still , 12 amps drain.

Isolated engine bay positive jumper cable from chassis , ran my hand along as best as I could . Still has 12 amps drain.

Had infinite resistance between positive jumper cable and engine block so I believe no short to ground along positive jumper cable .

Double checked all fuses again . Still 12 amps drain.
Suspect short to ground somewhere. What next ?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark@EAC View Post
may be a failed final stage unit as well, which is the resistor for the HVAC blower. They are a relatively common thing to go bad and can drain a battery in a relatively short amount of time.

What year is the 740iL?
.
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  #9  
Old 06-04-2011, 12:47 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Mein Auto: 740il 1998
1998 740 il
Borrowed mechanics ammeter which has a clamp to go around the neg cable at battery w/o removing cable.

In the process of investigating the battery drain , new issues arose.
Now, the interior lights do not go on .
Now, the rear pass windows are half open . Neither driver master switch nor the local door window switch will function for them .
Now , central power locking does not function.

Removed all fuses several times .
Sometimes the ammeter will drop to 00.03 amps after removed yellow trunk fuse # 53. This is called : Rear Seat Adjustment , I believe. I feel that this might control the front seat , rear back upright position ,not sure. The rear seats do not have controls.
The response appears to be sporadic. I used the front passenger seat adjustment several times to see if I could detect anything .
I am considering that the seat motor is intermittently causing an issue. Very unsure.

Draining is down to 00.03 for a while at least .
I had the same 00.03 level yesterday afternoon for a while and then started opening doors, reinstalling trunk lights , glove light, amplifier , CD Changer.

Next thing I knew, the trunk lites and glove lights worked within the 16 minute threshold.
I returned sometime much later , these 3 lights were then out and would not light up no matter what I tried : start car, lock,unlock,headlights,turn off headlights.
It seems that something triggered the 3 lights to stop and also triggered the 2 rear windows to not respond to their own switches nor the driver master switch.
Also, something killed the locking system . Can not use neither remote to lock nor the lock button on console.

The intermittent nature is most frustrating.
Can not do just one thing and isolate the action / reaction, tho trying.
Thought that either Amplifier or CD Changer would be the answer , so removed both . Now both back in , drain down to 00.03 and their respective fuses are in .
Fuse 69 : CD Changer and Radio . Will need radio codes soon. Fuse is OK.
Fuse 58: Central Locking System Fuse is OK
Fuse 6 : Interior and Trunk Lights Fuse is OK

One source said Passenger seat is Fuse # 16 ???
What is the LIGHT MODULE ( under fuses 23 and 44 ).
Still unclear as to what these facts are telling me.
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  #10  
Old 06-04-2011, 12:56 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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What is the Final Stage Unit ( resistor) that is associated with the HVAC. Is it the fan speed control?
Where to find it ?
Anyone know what fuse controls that circuit ? I believe fuse #20 and # 32 control the Heater Blower motor.

I appreciate all comments / advice .
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  #11  
Old 06-04-2011, 08:27 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilllearning6 View Post
1998 740 il

Now, the interior lights do not go on .
Now, the rear pass windows are half open . Neither driver master switch nor the local door window switch will function for them .
Now , central power locking does not function.


Next thing I knew, the trunk lites and glove lights worked within the 16 minute threshold.
I returned sometime much later , these 3 lights were then out and would not light up no matter what I tried : start car, lock,unlock,headlights,turn off headlights.
It seems that something triggered the 3 lights to stop and also triggered the 2 rear windows to not respond to their own switches nor the driver master switch.
Also, something killed the locking system . Can not use neither remote to lock nor the lock button on console.

The intermittent nature is most frustrating.

What is the LIGHT MODULE ( under fuses 23 and 44 ).
Still unclear as to what these facts are telling me.
There is some info here...take your time and read it all :

My opinion, is that these facts are pointing at the interior lighting module/(general module) crashed. All these functions that you are having issues are controlled by GM III. Windows and sunroof they should open/close when you hold the door key in the lock/unlock position. Again this issue is pinpointing the General Module crash as well.

Not knowing what year is your E38(you should update your profile) I found this info on my hard disk :

INTERIOR LIGHTING MODULE : DESCRIPTION & OPERATION (99 YEAR MODEL)

As with previous systems the control of the interior lights is a function of the general
module(GM III)
. New features of the interior lighting circuit are :

-The addition of warning lights in the edge of the doors. These red lights are
controlled by each door contact and illuminate when the doors are opened.

-The design of the interior light switch has changed. It is now a push button switch.
Pushing the button will carry out the opposite command of the current status of the
lights (i.e.: If the interior lights are currently on, pushing the button will switch the
lights off.`)

-If the interior lights are switched ON by the button with the ignition on, the
interior lights will remain on until they are switched of by the button.

-If the interior lights are switched ON when the ignition is switched off, the
lights wil remain on for 16 mmutes.

-Locking the vehicle from the outside will immediately switch off the interior
lights.

-Pressing the interior light button for longer than three seconds will switch the
lights to continuous off. This feature is intended for workshop use. Pressing the
button again will return the lights to the normal operational status.


Illuminated Transmssion Shift Indicator

The E38 uses a microprocessor for displaying the shifter position in the center console.
The processor receives shift position signals from a console mounted range switch. The
processor illuminates the LED coresponding to the position of the range selector.
The LED will remain on after KL 15 is turned OFF`and stay on until ZKE goes into the sleep
mode.

Since the LED is supplied power by the consumer cut out function it IS part of part of the
interior lighting circuit. If the LED fails to illuminate always consider the consumer cutout
function of the GM III.
Interior Lighting Functional Conditions :

The ON/OFF conditions for the interior lights in the automatic mode are as follows:
ON conditions :

-DOOR OPEN
-SWITCHING OFF IGNITION AFTER LIGHTS HAVE BEEN SWITCHED OFF
-VIA KEY REMOTE CONTROL
-VIA CRASH SENSOR

OFF CONDITIONS

-ALL DOORS CLOSED WITH IGNTTION ON
-ALL DOORS CLOSED WITH IGNITION OFF AFTER 20 SEC
-20 SEC AFTER SWITCHING OFF IGNTTION WTTH LIGHTS OFF
-8 SEC. AFTER REMOTE CONTROL ACTIVATION
-16 MINUTES WITH DOORS OPEN
-WHEN DOORS ARE LOCKED.

This is a TSB (Technical Service Bulletin)


Bulletin Number
61 11 00
Woodcliff Lake, NJ
September 2000
Service Engineering

SUBJECT
General Module Replacement

MODEL
E38 (7 Series), E39 (5 Series)

SITUATION

In order to determine the reason for failures and to correct these failures all General
Modules returned to the WPRC are tested by the supplier. On a large proportion of
General Modules no fault can be found.

Modules were replaced on vehicles whitch fall within the range of Service Action # 248
(SIB 61 15 98 Service Action to Recode General Module) and which have a customer
complaint of "dead battery". Examination ofthe modules shows that they have not
been recoded.

Modules were also replaced on vehicles manufactured prior to the above Service
Action for a customer complaint of "dead battery", although the General Moddes on
these vehicles are not afected by the fault pattern described in the Service Action.

Many modules that were returned, had no customer complaint, and the Diagnostic
Reportf/Test Code whitch is an important source of informaton, is not provided.

To improve the information provided for faiure analysis and reduce the number of
unnecessary General Module replacements, the procedure described below must be
followed :

PROCEDURE:

On vehicles that are afected by the Service Acton # 248 (vehicles produced 8/98 to
11/98), the General Module must be recoded if the customer complaint is for "dead
batterry".


Before replacing a General Module, diagnosis must be carried out using either DIS or
MODIC . For a customer complaint of dead battery refer to SIB 61 08 00

(Closed Circuit Current Measurement)

Before replacing the General Module ,the Test Code must be stored and the Diagnostic
Report printed out as follows:

1 Using DIS, or MoDIC select Diagnostic

2 Select any ZKE subsystem (for example Locking and Security Functions / Central
Locking system (ZKE) )

3 Select Test schedule

4 Select Service Functions / l Test code

5 Store the Test Code by pressing the R Store test code button

6 After completing the diagnosis ,print out the Diagnosis Report The stored Test.

Code will be printed out on the Diagnosis Report

WARRANTY INFORMATION

Copies of the Diagnosis Report must be attached to the part removed, and to the Repair
Order
The Diagnosis Report must then accompany the General Module when it is sent to the
WPRC
The Repair Order must always record the followrng relating to any General Module
replacement:
-The Customer Complaint

-The Cause

-The Correction

Parts replaced where no defect is found or where the applicable Diagnostic Report is
not provided with the part are subject to debit.
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Last edited by joyism5; 06-04-2011 at 08:56 PM.
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  #12  
Old 06-05-2011, 12:47 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Sounds like LIGHT MODULE = GENERAL MODULE 3 in my 1998 740 iL.

The more digging into my battery drain issue, the deeper in the hole I get .

I read about the GenMod 3 at another site . It appears that GM3 in my 1998 740iL can control rear pass windows, locking system , interior lights. All of these are now dead in my car.

Can not understand how battery drain issue is growing into so much more.

And... with several fuses out , drain persists.
Can not isolate the fuse that stops the battery drain.
Yesterday the drain got down to 00.03 amps .
Can not pinpoint the why.
I leave the car overnite, this AM , battery is low. Draining at higher level again spontaneously.
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  #13  
Old 06-05-2011, 01:53 PM
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General Module is located behind the glove box, try unplugging from there and watch the drain. See what happens. General Module could activate the doors red lights when door is closed and that could be the draining....It's just an example.
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Old 06-06-2011, 04:45 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Thank you for input.

As I understand the non-functioning systems ( lack rear p/w , lack central locking, lack trunk release/soft close, lack interior lights ) -- these all point to relays contained on the General Module 3 unit.

Reading about the unit informed me that General Module 3 can be disconnected via 3 cables attached to it and General Module 3 is hidden up behind glovebox. ( Thanks to the forum info) .

I found a website of a guy (Scott??) who appears to work on these General Modules and can repair / replace specific relays.
Dealership as cited in the forums has $1100 charge for General Module 3 replacement through dealership .
My understanding is that each relay may be obtained via outside source for $16 each.

Can someone confirm /correct my understanding of what I am facing.
Hope to hear that relay replacement will solve the nonfunctioning systems and also perhaps address battery drain . Battery drain might still be separate issue.

Much appreciative of any guidance .
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Old 06-06-2011, 07:31 AM
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joyism5 joyism5 is offline
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The General Module 3 can be reprogrammed as described in the TSB above. They have been checked on a large number and no issue was found. This is TSB says : reprogram before replace. That might help the issues since is a software based module. Have you asked how much it will charge you to to have it reprogrammed?

Alldata does not provide a better description for the module (inside parts like relays), so I don't know what to say about that.
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Old 06-06-2011, 11:16 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Hope to drive to dealertship and explore reprogram GM3 to solve both battery drain and nonfunctioning systems .

Thanks again for guidance . Plan to update when appropriate.
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  #17  
Old 06-06-2011, 02:09 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Dealership service dept commented that the 7 year old AutoZone 49 DL battery could be on its way out and causing the issues . They suggested replace battery first .
Also, scheduled service appointment for diagnosis .

Guessing one hour diagnosis at $130 / hour in Connecticut.
Still perplexed.
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  #18  
Old 06-06-2011, 05:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stilllearning6 View Post
Dealership service dept commented that the 7 year old AutoZone 49 DL battery could be on its way out and causing the issues . They suggested replace battery first .
Also, scheduled service appointment for diagnosis .

Guessing one hour diagnosis at $130 / hour in Connecticut.
Still perplexed.
First, if the battery is 7 years old? could be the issue of course and without a proper battery you can't really find the problem. But they are guessing for an hour? I wouldn't be to excited about that. I'll keep fingers crossed for you.

If you are out looking for a battery, check advance auto parts .Order on line and pickup in store(use big40 to save $40). Couple months ago I shopped around and came to their deal around $120 for a battery made in Germany, and it's the proper replacement.
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Old 06-07-2011, 06:30 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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J-5 : Thank you so much for your persistence on this issue.
I showed the TSB to the dealership . They entered my VIN # and informed me that my vehicle was manufactured Jan 1998 and the TSB discussed the reprogramming for approx 4th quarter of 1998 . Dealership said did not apply to my vehicle .

I also emailed an individual who works on GM3 repairs /relays. He suggested a used GM3 rather than try to refurbish mine if mine is toasted.
EBay had $75 GM3 as of last night. Dealership ball-parked $650 GM3 ( plus labor ?).

I am getting conflicted data :
AdvanceAuto did a load test on battery and alternator .
I have AOK printout results.
I keep trickle charge everyday to keep maximum charge.
Yet , why am I having the drain and why did the many systems go out?
I thought that the passing of the load test indicated battery was still good.
I thought that the daily trickle charge would keep max voltage to run all systems perfectly.
Can anyone shed light onto why this situation occurred?
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Old 06-07-2011, 07:39 AM
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Well, if you unplug the GM III and check for draining , it should stop if that's the case.

The battery test that they do in the auto store parts is not something that I will trust. I argued couple months ago with them about a new battery that was draining in about 2 days and they tests showed that everything's OK. And this happen 3 times . I was back and every time. Finally they gave me another battery.

On the alternator there is a test ,I think diode test that some of the auto parts tool cannot perform. A short on the diode can also be a draining source. The alternator and battery should be checked by an electrician with experience. I am not sure about this, I think again.

The GM III definitely has problems since you have these issues with windows and lights. Have you asked how much they want to reprogram? You should ask them if you buy a used one , does that needs to be reprogrammed as well? Or will work fine?

Now that I know that your model is 98 check this TSB that applies for that year. Show to the dealership if needed. Save picture as I will delete later due to copyright.
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Last edited by joyism5; 06-08-2011 at 07:28 AM.
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  #21  
Old 06-07-2011, 09:43 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Got your 3 page posting , thx.
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  #22  
Old 06-11-2011, 05:00 AM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Removed General Module 3

I learned that in my 1998 740 iL the General Module 3 was not easy to remove by simply wiggling.

Instead , I found each of the thin sides were secured by hooks/ clips/ tabs that wrapped around the GM3 at the forward side edges .
I was able to pry these clips away with a thin small blade.
After the side clips were removed , it wiggled out.

I did not remove the glovebox. Rather , open it fully and swing the glovebox door up and outward . Helps to have someone hold the glovebox door up to prevent it from swinging down onto your head .

Maybe the battery drain will now stop.
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  #23  
Old 06-11-2011, 06:29 AM
Brummel Brummel is offline
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Unplugging the alternator will stop a shorted diode from draining the battery,
give it a try so you can rule it out.

Last edited by Brummel; 06-11-2011 at 06:41 AM.
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  #24  
Old 06-11-2011, 11:32 AM
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Any results?
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  #25  
Old 06-11-2011, 12:40 PM
stilllearning6 stilllearning6 is offline
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Have not done anything today in the rain .
Trying to obtain used GM3 , P/N : 61.35-8 378 631.
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