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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #351  
Old 11-08-2012, 07:04 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Let us know how it sticks. Mine didn't.
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  #352  
Old 11-09-2012, 07:39 AM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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All you folks complaining about this so called "tip in" issue, stop driving like damn grandparents and lets your cars balls hang at least every other day and you won't have this issue.
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  #353  
Old 11-09-2012, 09:03 AM
DavidZ DavidZ is offline
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Maybe it's just learning how to drive this car or maybe the recoding helped, but after a year and a half of driving the car (and about six months of driving after the recoding), it drives fine. The only thing I need to sometimes change is that if I'm in a situation where I really need the car to accelerate quickly I need to shift the lever to the left to engage the Sport mode. If I don't engage the Sport mode there usually is a slight hesitation in throttle response. But I never seem to notice the old jerky nature of the transmission/throttle from a very slow speed to a dead stop.
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  #354  
Old 11-09-2012, 09:17 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is offline
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Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
All you folks complaining about this so called "tip in" issue, stop driving like damn grandparents and lets your cars balls hang at least every other day and you won't have this issue.
Thanks for saying, I was thinking likewise for a longtime.
But, when you are condemned to overcrowded city driving there might be an insolvable problem.
Not with SAT, mine stays alert even after a week of crawling around.
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  #355  
Old 11-11-2012, 04:25 PM
UNCtarheels UNCtarheels is offline
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Originally Posted by Sophisto View Post
Thanks for saying, I was thinking likewise for a longtime.
But, when you are condemned to overcrowded city driving there might be an insolvable problem.
Not with SAT, mine stays alert even after a week of crawling around.
you two just have no clue
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  #356  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:04 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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It's too bad so many drivers are having an unacceptable experience. Clearly, the performance of the engines in the 528 and 535's lack that direct responsiveness you would get in an old fashioned normally aspirated V8 or even a strong V6. But that's the way BMW built them. Clearly, the cars are programmed to coast casually and save fuel despite their horsepower claims and how they perform at WOT from 0-60. Every day driving just seems to be a disappointment. What is a real shame is that - the driving characteristics can seemingly be easily adjusted - and drastically. I have a 2012 535xi that I was very happy with but all in all....it lacked something. It lacked some responsiveness in the throttle when driving modestly, in my words... not enough Torque or the feeling of it. I never really had a lag issue, but now, the car just goes like heck at WOT.

I installed a BMS Stage 1 tune recently and the car is fundamentally different - all of these feelings many posters have would be gone in an instant. I think the car should have come like this from the factory. I have had a number of cars over the years, and have never modified a car in this fashion. I recognize too that for many who lease cars. this may not be a desired course of action. I researched it for a while, looked at BMW's own performance tune (135/335) and came to the conclusion that a tune might be well worth it. There are some nay sayers so it is not for everyone, but I can tell you it's a simple install, no cutting of wires just pure plug and play. I've been running it for a while and the car is fantastic, no hitches at all. More horsepower, more torque and it goes like heck. If you drive it responsibly, no real change in fuel mileage.

So the tune itself is a piggy back tune that intercepts certain signals to/from the ECU and changes things like boost. It is not an extreme tune, but from what I understand slightly more aggressive than BMW's factory tune for the 135/335. It cost about $379. It's a shame really, because most readers and posters will be concerned about warranty and would not take the step and that's the point - BMW could fix this in about an hour. When these cars are 3-4 years old and the warranty is less of a concern, a whole bunch of drivers could spend a mere $379 and get a fantastic responding car. Will it alter engine life dramatically? I don't know for sure. If you maintain your car well, service it regularly, and don't use it on a race track - I doubt it. On a day to day basis, all you notice is more overall responsiveness and the odd time you want to step on it....it goes like you expected it to.

It's just too bad BMW doesn't tune it like this or something like this - drivers clearly want it. Then again, if the 535 was like mine out of the factory, you might not be motived to buy a 550.....
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-11-2012 at 06:06 PM.
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  #357  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:10 PM
UNCtarheels UNCtarheels is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
It's too bad so many drivers are having an unacceptable experience. Clearly, the performance of the engines in the 528 and 535's lack that direct responsiveness you would get in an old fashioned normally aspirated V8 or even a strong V6. But that's the way BMW built them. Clearly, the cars are programmed to coast casually and save fuel despite their horsepower claims and how they perform at WOT from 0-60. Every day driving just seems to be a disappointment. What is a real shame is that - the driving characteristics can seemingly be easily adjusted - and drastically. I have a 2012 535xi that I was very happy with but all in all....it lacked something. It lacked some responsiveness in the throttle when driving modestly, in my words... not enough Torque or the feeling of it. I never really had a lag issue, but now, the car just goes like heck at WOT.

I installed a BMS Stage 1 tune recently and the car is fundamentally different - all of these feelings many posters have would be gone in an instant. I think the car should have come like this from the factory. I have had a number of cars over the years, and have never modified a car in this fashion. I recognize too that for many who lease cars. this may not be a desired course of action. I researched it for a while, looked at BMW's own performance tune (135/335) and came to the conclusion that a tune might be well worth it. There are some nay sayers so it is not for everyone, but I can tell you it's a simple install, no cutting of wires just pure plug and play. I've been running it for a while and the car is fantastic, no hitches at all. More horsepower, more torque and it goes like heck. If you drive it responsibly, no real change in fuel mileage.

So the tune itself is a piggy back tune that intercepts certain signals to/from the ECU and changes things like boost. It is not an extreme tune, but from what I understand slightly more aggressive than BMW's factory tune for the 135/335. It cost about $379. It's a shame really, because most readers and posters will be concerned about warranty and would not take the step and that's the point - BMW could fix this in about an hour. When these cars are 3-4 years old and the warranty is less of a concern, a whole bunch of drivers could spend a mere $379 and get a fantastic responding car. Will it alter engine life dramatically? I don't know for sure. If you maintain your car well, service it regularly, and don't use it on a race track - I doubt it. On a day to day basis, all you notice is more overall responsiveness and the odd time you want to step on it....it goes like you expected it to.

It's just too bad BMW doesn't tune it like this or something like this - drivers clearly want it. Then again, if the 535 was like mine out of the factory, you might not be motived to buy a 550.....
great reply!! actually i meant to state this earlier. last week i had my 2011 535i in for maitanence. they pulled a brand new 2013 535i off the lot for my loaner and i can say 100%, there is NO issue, lag, hesitation, NOTHING with the new 2013's. I mean it is a totally different driving car and it literally feels like there is 100+ more HP in this car. i know there isnt, but still, the torque, start, pull off the line -- everything, is totally different and MUCH MUCH better. the 2013 is what all F10's should be if you have a 535i, no questions asked....i dont know what BMW did differently but it is major...my 2011 has still kept the latest flash from BMW and the hesitation is gone, but it is still night and day different than the 2013's....

anway, thought you may like to know...
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  #358  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:14 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCtarheels View Post
great reply!! actually i meant to state this earlier. last week i had my 2011 535i in for maitanence. they pulled a brand new 2013 535i off the lot for my loaner and i can say 100%, there is NO issue, lag, hesitation, NOTHING with the new 2013's. I mean it is a totally different driving car and it literally feels like there is 100+ more HP in this car. i know there isnt, but still, the torque, start, pull off the line -- everything, is totally different and MUCH MUCH better. the 2013 is what all F10's should be if you have a 535i, no questions asked....i dont know what BMW did differently but it is major...my 2011 has still kept the latest flash from BMW and the hesitation is gone, but it is still night and day different than the 2013's....

anway, thought you may like to know...
Interesting. From what I know, these cars are so tuneable that all of these issues can be alleviated. Looks like BMW may have done just that.
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  #359  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:16 PM
UNCtarheels UNCtarheels is offline
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After driving that car for the weekend, i would def agree...makes me want to trade mine in for a new 2013!!
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  #360  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:23 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by UNCtarheels View Post
After driving that car for the weekend, i would def agree...makes me want to trade mine in for a new 2013!!
For $379 you could save a lot of depreciation ...LOL. You know, I bet you could even reduce the BMS Stage 1 tune and for most people it would be fine. I think the Stage 1 tune maybe adds 30-40 hp and 60 flbs of torque. But I'm not sure as I have not had it tested. It feels different for sure.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-11-2012 at 06:25 PM.
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  #361  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:41 PM
UNCtarheels UNCtarheels is offline
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does the tune negate or void the warranty? what happens when you take it into dealer for service? will they "erase" the new programing and replace to factory standard?
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  #362  
Old 11-11-2012, 06:51 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCtarheels View Post
does the tune negate or void the warranty? what happens when you take it into dealer for service? will they "erase" the new programing and replace to factory standard?
The tune has its own little black box, connected to the car with an OEM looking cable with 4 connection points - almost invisible to the untrained eye. The black box is hidden inside the cover over the passenger's side part of the front hood. The tune cannot be "erased". Certain signals come from the new little black box you put in there to modify boost etc.. Now as to the warranty, I suppose if something seriously went wrong with the engine, you'd have an issue. If the trim falls off the dash, or the run flats won't hold a balance, I don't know if you could attribute that to a tune. In thinking about it myself, I thought back to every car I owned. I never had an engine that had a structural failure. I've had a steering pump fail, a water pump fail, battery, water got into the computer of my wife's Golf Cabriolet once, but nothing major. I've had my Porsche on a race track, drove the heck out of it, and my wife took it to the grocery store the next day without skipping a beat. I talked to the shop I do my body work with and they are one of Toronto's premier performance tuners: modern corvettes to BMWs. There view is that the modern drivetrains can take a lot. To each his own, but I always wondered, for instance, are the basics, that different between the 535 and the 550 or even the 528 for that matter?
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  #363  
Old 11-11-2012, 09:53 PM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
For $379 you could save a lot of depreciation ...LOL. You know, I bet you could even reduce the BMS Stage 1 tune and for most people it would be fine. I think the Stage 1 tune maybe adds 30-40 hp and 60 flbs of torque. But I'm not sure as I have not had it tested. It feels different for sure.
I think those numbers are a bit exaggerated. I have yet to see a member do a before and after dyno proving these numbers on an N55.

Also most agree that the lag was a delay in the transmission response so increasing the power would not have helped in this situation.
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  #364  
Old 11-11-2012, 10:51 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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I think those numbers are a bit exaggerated. I have yet to see a member do a before and after dyno proving these numbers on an N55.

Also most agree that the lag was a delay in the transmission response so increasing the power would not have helped in this situation.
They might be exaggerated. But HP to the flywheel and the rear wheels is different. A 535 has 300 stated hp from BMW but I don't think that's to the wheels. Anyway there are some comparative stats that Burger puts out but I'm not measuring, there is a notable difference regardless. As to it being the transmission response regarding lag, i don't know as I have not had a real issue with lag. But I can tell you the tune makes a heck of a difference. Other's who have tried it also agree. I thought the lag issue was throttle related as a modest press of the gas resulted in no lag, but WOT attempts caused lag. Isn't that why some members use Sprint Booster?
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-11-2012 at 10:53 PM.
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  #365  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:18 AM
douggie douggie is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
They might be exaggerated. But HP to the flywheel and the rear wheels is different. A 535 has 300 stated hp from BMW but I don't think that's to the wheels. Anyway there are some comparative stats that Burger puts out but I'm not measuring, there is a notable difference regardless. As to it being the transmission response regarding lag, i don't know as I have not had a real issue with lag. But I can tell you the tune makes a heck of a difference. Other's who have tried it also agree. I thought the lag issue was throttle related as a modest press of the gas resulted in no lag, but WOT attempts caused lag. Isn't that why some members use Sprint Booster?
Yes, the lag is more noticeable during light presses at the gas pedal. Still has some delay when you floor it though.

After sending in my car for the software upgrade to attempt to fix the "Delay in Engine Response", I was still not satisfied with the lag, so I bit the bullet and bought a Sprint Booster. I installed the Sprint Booster over the weekend and I must say that it really changes the throttle response! I know for sure it does not increase engine power, but it makes the car more enjoyable to drive. The gas pedal has definitely become more sensitive to light presses and the transmission is more willing to kick down. I'd definitely recommend installing one if anyone is unhappy with the throttle delay. The only thing I'm not sure is if there is a combined effect of both the software update and the Sprint Booster. Maybe it would still suck if you just installed the Sprint Booster without doing the software update.

But I'm still pissed that we have to spend extra on mods like this just to be able to enjoy driving a BMW, when things like the throttle are clearly all software controlled! Did anyone test drive these cars when they load in the software? If they did, did they hire grandmas to drive them?

Last edited by douggie; 11-12-2012 at 12:33 AM.
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  #366  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:04 AM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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Originally Posted by UNCtarheels View Post
you two just have no clue
Actually you are correct, I have no idea what everyone is complaining about because my car has never suffered this issue. And I'm sure its because I let my car breath frequently.
And the reason why the brand new 535 felt faster is because it didn't have time to adapt to a driver who doesn't lay into the car as often as they should. I'm sure if you had the 2013 535 for a couple months it'd feel the same, its purely tranny adaptation to your driving style.
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  #367  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:50 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Actually you are correct, I have no idea what everyone is complaining about because my car has never suffered this issue. And I'm sure its because I let my car breath frequently.
And the reason why the brand new 535 felt faster is because it didn't have time to adapt to a driver who doesn't lay into the car as often as they should. I'm sure if you had the 2013 535 for a couple months it'd feel the same, its purely tranny adaptation to your driving style.
I drove fairly aggressively when I first took delivery as well. I think it makes a difference.
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  #368  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:37 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by RambleJ View Post
All you folks complaining about this so called "tip in" issue, stop driving like damn grandparents and lets your cars balls hang at least every other day and you won't have this issue.
Completely false. I have tried driving around for a week in sport, being very aggressive with the car. It did not help.

I have also driven around for a week with a Sprint Booster. Let me tell you, that's like flooring it every time you get on the gas just a little. Removed the sprint booster (solved issue number 2 below, but exacerbated issue 1) and there was no difference in the car.
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  #369  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:41 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
It's too bad so many drivers are having an unacceptable experience. Clearly, the performance of the engines in the 528 and 535's lack that direct responsiveness you would get in an old fashioned normally aspirated V8 or even a strong V6. But that's the way BMW built them. Clearly, the cars are programmed to coast casually and save fuel despite their horsepower claims and how they perform at WOT from 0-60. Every day driving just seems to be a disappointment. What is a real shame is that - the driving characteristics can seemingly be easily adjusted - and drastically. I have a 2012 535xi that I was very happy with but all in all....it lacked something. It lacked some responsiveness in the throttle when driving modestly, in my words... not enough Torque or the feeling of it. I never really had a lag issue, but now, the car just goes like heck at WOT.

I installed a BMS Stage 1 tune recently and the car is fundamentally different - all of these feelings many posters have would be gone in an instant. I think the car should have come like this from the factory. I have had a number of cars over the years, and have never modified a car in this fashion. I recognize too that for many who lease cars. this may not be a desired course of action. I researched it for a while, looked at BMW's own performance tune (135/335) and came to the conclusion that a tune might be well worth it. There are some nay sayers so it is not for everyone, but I can tell you it's a simple install, no cutting of wires just pure plug and play. I've been running it for a while and the car is fantastic, no hitches at all. More horsepower, more torque and it goes like heck. If you drive it responsibly, no real change in fuel mileage.

So the tune itself is a piggy back tune that intercepts certain signals to/from the ECU and changes things like boost. It is not an extreme tune, but from what I understand slightly more aggressive than BMW's factory tune for the 135/335. It cost about $379. It's a shame really, because most readers and posters will be concerned about warranty and would not take the step and that's the point - BMW could fix this in about an hour. When these cars are 3-4 years old and the warranty is less of a concern, a whole bunch of drivers could spend a mere $379 and get a fantastic responding car. Will it alter engine life dramatically? I don't know for sure. If you maintain your car well, service it regularly, and don't use it on a race track - I doubt it. On a day to day basis, all you notice is more overall responsiveness and the odd time you want to step on it....it goes like you expected it to.

It's just too bad BMW doesn't tune it like this or something like this - drivers clearly want it. Then again, if the 535 was like mine out of the factory, you might not be motived to buy a 550.....
There are two different issues.

1. Tip in - that is the inability to pull away from a stop without looking like you're driving a manual transmission for the first time.

2. Lack of responsiveness from the throttle while driving. That is, press the throttle and no response from the engine for much longer than expected.

Neither of these have anything to do with the type of engine. They are both programming issues. The first with the transmission, the second with the throttle.

The first issue can be taken care of by shifting into sport. That mostly alleviates the problem, but it is not completely gone. The second can be alleviated by driving in sport or by getting a sprint booster.

As you noted, the engine is very potent when it wants to be. It's not turbo lag or the engine itself, it's goofy programming. If the same programming were applied to the engine in the M3, it too would feel dull and unresponsive.
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  #370  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:53 AM
RambleJ RambleJ is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
There are two different issues.

1. Tip in - that is the inability to pull away from a stop without looking like you're driving a manual transmission for the first time.

2. Lack of responsiveness from the throttle while driving. That is, press the throttle and no response from the engine for much longer than expected.

Neither of these have anything to do with the type of engine. They are both programming issues. The first with the transmission, the second with the throttle.

The first issue can be taken care of by shifting into sport. That mostly alleviates the problem, but it is not completely gone. The second can be alleviated by driving in sport or by getting a sprint booster.

As you noted, the engine is very potent when it wants to be. It's not turbo lag or the engine itself, it's goofy programming. If the same programming were applied to the engine in the M3, it too would feel dull and unresponsive.
Well maybe that is why I have never experienced any of these issues. Once my car is warmed up to normal operating temps my car is always in either sport or sport+. And now I have a tune to help out as well.
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  #371  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:59 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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I think also by MY2012 they had pretty much figured out the problem. When in MY2012 i am not sure.
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  #372  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:30 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
There are two different issues.

1. Tip in - that is the inability to pull away from a stop without looking like you're driving a manual transmission for the first time.

2. Lack of responsiveness from the throttle while driving. That is, press the throttle and no response from the engine for much longer than expected.

Neither of these have anything to do with the type of engine. They are both programming issues. The first with the transmission, the second with the throttle.

The first issue can be taken care of by shifting into sport. That mostly alleviates the problem, but it is not completely gone. The second can be alleviated by driving in sport or by getting a sprint booster.

As you noted, the engine is very potent when it wants to be. It's not turbo lag or the engine itself, it's goofy programming. If the same programming were applied to the engine in the M3, it too would feel dull and unresponsive.
I think that sums it up. I definitely believe it's a programing issue and these issues can be corrected, although as was noted, in MY2012 I think the Tip-In issue was alleviated in many cars.

The lack of responsiveness (your number 2) is apparant in all the cars in my view, most notably in comfort mode. I call it a flat spot - where you have to really be aggresive with the gas pedal and then you go. I think the problem is most driviers are not conditioned to do that with a car like this and get a very modest response when they expected a more immediate one and that leads into potentially unpleasant situations when changing lanes for instance.

I'll say it again, if all 535 drivers had a chance to drive a car with the JB4 Stage 1 or equivalent tune you would never do without it. BMW should jsut make a tune available to 5 series drivers and everyone would be happy. Some additional horsepower, torque, responsiveness and problem solved. It does not have to be extreme.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-12-2012 at 07:37 AM.
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  #373  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:46 AM
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bighungry618 bighungry618 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
I think also by MY2012 they had pretty much figured out the problem. When in MY2012 i am not sure.
Saturday, I scheduled an appointment for the low mileage maintenance service at my dealer. Incidentally I received a past due service notice even though my car has only 6800 miles on her.

I can without reservation say that the loaner (2012 535i) I have while my car is being serviced, accelerates completely differently and inherently better than my 2011 7/11 build 535i.

I was one of those who believed that I had no lag issues (because of build date) and that the throttle response in Irene was different but a normal way to add MPGs. I was wrong. …Really wrong. The 2012 model is linear, smooth and lag free during acceleration and cornering. The difference is especially noticeable while doing both at the same time. Although not from a complete stop, as the model I have has auto start/stop. (very unnerving and annoying but that’s another thread)

Even in comfort mode the loaner is nearly perfect as it accelerates. I have noticed the gas pedal is tighter (harder to depress) and way more responsive to fluctuation in pedal travel. As soon as I pulled away from the dealership in the loaner, my wife said “this car feels different” I assume she meant the smoother shifting and the car not jerking us forward when lifting off the throttle, but she may have been talking about the substandard seats. Either way this prompted a call my SA when we got home and we had a discussion about it. I haven’t heard anything back as of yet today but I will update as or if I learn anything.

What was really weird is that it felt like I had to relearn how to drive the loaner as I guess my body and mind learned what to do while driving my car. I exaggerate not, the difference is stunning.

I urge anyone who has a 2011 535i post 2/11 build or otherwise, and thinks that they don’t have acceleration issues or is on the fence about it, please go test drive a newer model year equivalent to judge for yourself. This may be an anomaly with my car only, but given the number of posts and discussions on this topic, I highly doubt it.
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  #374  
Old 11-12-2012, 08:00 AM
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miamiboyca miamiboyca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post

I'll say it again, if all 535 drivers had a chance to drive a car with the JB4 Stage 1 or equivalent tune you would never do without it. BMW should jsut make a tune available to 5 series drivers and everyone would be happy. Some additional horsepower, torque, responsiveness and problem solved. It does not have to be extreme.
I am glad you are happy with your tune, but more power would not in anyway over power software. Because no matter how much power you have on tap, or how hard you press the accelerator its the software in the car that takes that data, interpets it and applies it. If that software has a bad design their is no way around it until its corrected.

Some of the folks on here have owned quite a few bimmers, and I would not want to speculate as to how I believe they are driving the car incorrectly. I am sure they tried everything before starting to complain. Including how one poster, retrained himself on how to drive the car to compensate for the software design flaw.

While I personally can't not attest to this issue, I spent quite a few hours reading on the different boards about this broad issue. (not diver specific as you suggest) and it was one of the determining factors in me opting for the manual.
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Last edited by miamiboyca; 11-12-2012 at 08:03 AM.
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  #375  
Old 11-12-2012, 11:14 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
I am glad you are happy with your tune, but more power would not in anyway over power software. Because no matter how much power you have on tap, or how hard you press the accelerator its the software in the car that takes that data, interpets it and applies it.
Agreed. But if you change throttle response like Sprint Booster does, you will get one result and if you change throttle response, boost pressure, timing, air/fuel mix you will get another more pronounced result. I know a few 2011 MY owners that have used the JB4 and have had a good result vis a vis the issue we talked about. I'm not sure it's really a manually shifitng transmission solution per se, as you tend to increase RPM to engage the clutch smoothly in a manual and are out of the RPM zone where the problem may exist. So a manaul may not exhibit the issue, but not sure the auto transmission by itself is the culprit. Anyway, for those that want to try something, $379 is what it costs, for others I realize they would never do it. To each his own.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-12-2012 at 11:16 AM.
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