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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #376  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:17 PM
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bighungry618 bighungry618 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNCtarheels View Post
great reply!! actually i meant to state this earlier. last week i had my 2011 535i in for maitanence. they pulled a brand new 2013 535i off the lot for my loaner and i can say 100%, there is NO issue, lag, hesitation, NOTHING with the new 2013's. I mean it is a totally different driving car and it literally feels like there is 100+ more HP in this car. i know there isnt, but still, the torque, start, pull off the line -- everything, is totally different and MUCH MUCH better. the 2013 is what all F10's should be if you have a 535i, no questions asked....i dont know what BMW did differently but it is major...my 2011 has still kept the latest flash from BMW and the hesitation is gone, but it is still night and day different than the 2013's....

anway, thought you may like to know...
Posted my experience before I read this. (above)
I have the jb4 stage one (soon to be stage two when I get her back) tune and trust me, even with the tune my 2011 still exhibits some throttle lag and weird shifting characteristics. They are less pronounced but still there indeed.
There most definitely was some kind of fix for the 2012 and 2013 model years. Like I said in my previous post; if you have a MY2011 535i or 528, regardless of build date, go test drive a 2012 or 2013 equivalent and see for yourself. It's night and day in my case as well. (see below)


Quote:
Originally Posted by bighungry618 View Post
Saturday, I had an appointment for the low mileage maintenance service at my dealer. Incidentally I received a past due service notice even though my car has only 6800 miles on her.

I can without reservation say that the loaner (2012 535i) I have while my car is being serviced, accelerates completely differently and inherently better than my 2011 7/11 build 535i.

I was one of those who believed that I had no lag issues (because of build date) and that the throttle response in Irene was different but a normal way to add MPGs. I was wrong. .Really wrong. The 2012 model is linear, smooth and lag free during acceleration and cornering. The difference is especially noticeable while doing both at the same time. Although not from a complete stop, as the model I have has auto start/stop. (very unnerving and annoying but that's another thread)

Even in comfort mode the loaner is nearly perfect as it accelerates. I have noticed the gas pedal is tighter (harder to depress) and way more responsive to fluctuation in pedal travel. As soon as I pulled away from the dealership in the loaner, my wife said "this car feels different" I assume she meant the smoother shifting and the car not jerking us forward when lifting off the throttle, but she may have been talking about the substandard seats. Either way this prompted a call my SA when we got home and we had a discussion about it. I haven't heard anything back as of yet today but I will update as or if I learn anything.

What was really weird is that it felt like I had to relearn how to drive the loaner as I guess my body and mind learned what to do while driving my car. I exaggerate not, the difference is stunning.

I urge anyone who has a 2011 535i post 2/11 build or otherwise, and thinks that they don't have acceleration issues or is on the fence about it, please go test drive a newer model year equivalent to judge for yourself. This may be an anomaly with my car only, but given the number of posts and discussions on this topic, I highly doubt it.
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Last edited by bighungry618; 11-12-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #377  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
Agreed. But if you change throttle response like Sprint Booster does, you will get one result and if you change throttle response, boost pressure, timing, air/fuel mix you will get another more pronounced result. I know a few 2011 MY owners that have used the JB4 and have had a good result vis a vis the issue we talked about. I'm not sure it's really a manually shifitng transmission solution per se, as you tend to increase RPM to engage the clutch smoothly in a manual and are out of the RPM zone where the problem may exist. So a manaul may not exhibit the issue, but not sure the auto transmission by itself is the culprit. Anyway, for those that want to try something, $379 is what it costs, for others I realize they would never do it. To each his own.
Incorrect, I am considering doing the Stage 2, but that would be to add HP not to fix an issue that BMW is trying to address.

Read more, you will see lots of info pointing to the software on the tranny and how none of the complaints are from manuals only autos.
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  #378  
Old 11-12-2012, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Incorrect, I am considering doing the Stage 2, but that would be to add HP not to fix an issue that BMW is trying to address.

Read more, you will see lots of info pointing to the software on the tranny and how none of the complaints are from manuals only autos.
I think the JB4 improves throttle response too, but that may be my impression only. You will have to decide. Some people think Sprint Booster alleviates the issue. My point on the transmission was that they work so differently, I wouldn't know how you could replicate the issue when you have to increase RPM to engage the clutch on a manual. In my exprience they are so different, it would be like doing a brake stand on an auto, reving up to 2500 RPM and letting it go. I would imagine there is no lag in that instance either. If you have driven a modern auto with lanuch control you will know that once launch control is engaged, you put your foot on the brake, press the gas pedal to the floor and it will hold the RPMs at some pre-determined level and then when the light is green...pow, you let your foot of the brake and away it goes.

Anyway, I'm glad I don't have this problem.
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  #379  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:13 PM
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PeterC4 - we are both discussing problems we do not have, I am just pointing out that we should leave the discussion to those that have had it.
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  #380  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
PeterC4 - we are both discussing problems we do not have, I am just pointing out that we should leave the discussion to those that have had it.
My point is that I doubt the transmission has anything to do with it. It's the relationship between the gas pedal and the fuel injectors.
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  #381  
Old 11-12-2012, 01:45 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
My point is that I doubt the transmission has anything to do with it. It's the relationship between the gas pedal and the fuel injectors.
And you would be wrong.
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  #382  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:00 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
And you would be wrong.
How do you know?
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  #383  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post

The lack of responsiveness (your number 2) is apparant in all the cars in my view, most notably in comfort mode. I call it a flat spot - where you have to really be aggresive with the gas pedal and then you go. I think the problem is most driviers are not conditioned to do that with a car like this and get a very modest response when they expected a more immediate one and that leads into potentially unpleasant situations when changing lanes for instance..

I have had instances where I have floored my car to the kickdown and been able to say...one MIsissippi, two mississippi where NOTHING happened and then WHAM, it runs like a shot.
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  #384  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:11 PM
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bighungry618 bighungry618 is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I have had instances where I have floored my car to the kickdown and been able to say...one MIsissippi, two mississippi where NOTHING happened and then WHAM, it runs like a shot.
Me too..and I have also had cases in which I've floored it, the engine revs but feels like the transmission doesnt engage, then quickly let off the accelerator, the engine continues the higher rpms and the car downshifts abruptly.
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  #385  
Old 11-12-2012, 02:36 PM
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Originally Posted by bighungry618 View Post
Me too..and I have also had cases in which I've floored it, the engine revs but feels like the transmission doesnt engage, then quickly let off the accelerator, the engine continues the higher rpms and the car downshifts abruptly.
Whoa!! That ain't lag or an initial accerlation problem...that's a job for Mr. Transmission. Well, if that's what you are experiencing, that would drive me crazy, particualry if your transmission feels like you are in neutral when you are actually in gear and trying to accelerate. I would be returning a car like that.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-12-2012 at 02:38 PM.
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  #386  
Old 11-12-2012, 03:36 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
How do you know?
By reading posts like the ones below. I never experienced it but if you took the time to read enough of it, and the varying descriptions, dealer feedback and understand software, you might know to.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I have had instances where I have floored my car to the kickdown and been able to say...one MIsissippi, two mississippi where NOTHING happened and then WHAM, it runs like a shot.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bighungry618 View Post
Me too..and I have also had cases in which I've floored it, the engine revs but feels like the transmission doesnt engage, then quickly let off the accelerator, the engine continues the higher rpms and the car downshifts abruptly.
Believe me, I hear you both. I read a lot of your posts(Decaf - you have like a million of then as well as other members to educate myself before I made my decision.

I have to hand it to you and other members on the forum who experienced the issues. I have not doubt that one day I would have returned the car to the dealer through their showroom floor and wound up in... well you get it.

I am glad there are folks that provide details of issues it help me quite a bit.
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  #387  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:02 PM
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
I am glad you are happy with your tune, but more power would not in anyway over power software. Because no matter how much power you have on tap, or how hard you press the accelerator its the software in the car that takes that data, interpets it and applies it. If that software has a bad design their is no way around it until its corrected.

Some of the folks on here have owned quite a few bimmers, and I would not want to speculate as to how I believe they are driving the car incorrectly. I am sure they tried everything before starting to complain. Including how one poster, retrained himself on how to drive the car to compensate for the software design flaw.

While I personally can't not attest to this issue, I spent quite a few hours reading on the different boards about this broad issue. (not diver specific as you suggest) and it was one of the determining factors in me opting for the manual.
I fully agree that it is all software related since the pedal is electronically monitored. The Sprint booster proves this point because it doesn't add power. I can live with an underpowered car, but not having a sharp response with the gas pedal kills the perception of having full control of the car. This also kills any urge to drive aggressively, not saying anyone should drive aggressively on public roads.

I had to give the Sprint booster a shot when I realized the 2012 Camry that I rented had a better pedal response than my f10!

Last edited by douggie; 11-12-2012 at 04:11 PM.
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  #388  
Old 11-12-2012, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I have had instances where I have floored my car to the kickdown and been able to say...one MIsissippi, two mississippi where NOTHING happened and then WHAM, it runs like a shot.
Yep. Been there, done that. That is probably my very first experience feeling unsafe driving A car! EVER! I then sent it in to have the software updated. No longer life threatening, but the lag was still disappointing after the update.
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  #389  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:34 PM
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
I fully agree that it is all software related since the pedal is electronically monitored. The Sprint booster proves this point because it doesn't add power. I can live with an underpowered car, but not having a sharp response with the gas pedal kills the perception of having full control of the car. This also kills any urge to drive aggressively, not saying anyone should drive aggressively on public roads.

I had to give the Sprint booster a shot when I realized the 2012 Camry that I rented had a better pedal response than my f10!
Agree with your post, although not the one referenced to. If it is a pure transmission issue...get it to the dealer. It's a MAJOR problem unrelated to increased throttle response. Dial 911!!
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-12-2012 at 06:35 PM.
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  #390  
Old 11-12-2012, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
Agree with your post, although not the one referenced to. If it is a pure transmission issue...get it to the dealer. It's a MAJOR problem unrelated to increased throttle response. Dial 911!!
Obviously you don't want to listen to the people that actually have the problem telling you what it is and how they tried to go to the dealer to know avail. Telling you that's it a tranny response and engage problem. There are tons of posts on multiple sites but you know it can fixed with a JB tune

I am out.
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  #391  
Old 11-12-2012, 07:01 PM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by miamiboyca View Post
Obviously you don't want to listen to the people that actually have the problem telling you what it is and how they tried to go to the dealer to know avail. Telling you that's it a tranny response and engage problem. There are tons of posts on multiple sites but you know it can fixed with a JB tune

I am out.
I'm not clear on what the issue is but I'm not sure you are singularly right. A transmission problem is not a lag problem and a JB tune will not fix it for sure...but man, you gotta get it straight...it is NOt throttle lag. I live in Canada. I know what can happen to an automatic transmission. Under heavy load, such as when rocking a car stuck in snow, towing a trailer, having continuous stop and go traffic in hot weather, racing, etc. the transmission overheats. The heat adversely affects rubber seals and O-rings and they become hard and brittle. The metal parts warp causing serious damage. If you have a new car and the thing spins as if in neutral...that has nothing to do with throttle lag...maybe it's an exaggerated problem or a real one...but get it to the dealer, get it described correctly, and stop posting it as a "lag problem" or "initial acceleration problem" which is the title of this thread.
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Last edited by PeterC4; 11-12-2012 at 07:05 PM.
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  #392  
Old 11-13-2012, 04:20 AM
douggie douggie is offline
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Originally Posted by PeterC4 View Post
Agree with your post, although not the one referenced to. If it is a pure transmission issue...get it to the dealer. It's a MAJOR problem unrelated to increased throttle response. Dial 911!!
Well, I'm sorry that I didn't fully describe the incident where I floored the pedal and got no response. When I said no response, it is zero response. The engine did not even rev up. Nothing is slipping. The closest thing I can relate to is that the car is in a wrong (very high) gear, so the engine just can't rev up at all. But I have the sport auto and this thing has 8 gears. This means the gear ratios are very close to each other. I would think I would at least feel the engine struggle if it is at one or even two gears higher than required, but no.

Then after two seconds, the rpm shoots up and it darts off.

And no, I'm not in manual mode. Just normal mode.

And to be fair, the response is much better in sport mode, but it is retarded to drive with high rpms in daily commute in rush hour. There are days where u just don't want to bother toggling the shifter left and right just to get that few moments of immediate response.
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Old 11-13-2012, 05:28 AM
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
Well, I'm sorry that I didn't fully describe the incident where I floored the pedal and got no response. When I said no response, it is zero response. The engine did not even rev up. Nothing is slipping. The closest thing I can relate to is that the car is in a wrong (very high) gear, so the engine just can't rev up at all. But I have the sport auto and this thing has 8 gears. This means the gear ratios are very close to each other. I would think I would at least feel the engine struggle if it is at one or even two gears higher than required, but no.

Then after two seconds, the rpm shoots up and it darts off.

And no, I'm not in manual mode. Just normal mode.

And to be fair, the response is much better in sport mode, but it is retarded to drive with high rpms in daily commute in rush hour. There are days where u just don't want to bother toggling the shifter left and right just to get that few moments of immediate response.
Okay, now I understand. I know what you mean. There are a lot of gears and the car tends to move to the higher ones for fuel economy. In my case, a modest press of the gas peddle when travelling at say, 55 mph used to get little response, but if I floored it, it always took off, but I would have to be very aggressive. After my tune, it is much better and I describe the overall performance in another post.
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  #394  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:58 AM
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, a modest press of the gas peddle when travelling at say, 55 mph used to get little response, but if I floored it, it always took off, but I would have to be very aggressive. After my tune, it is much better and I describe the overall performance in another post.
Of course you do... you have more power... That has nothing to do with the issues described.
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  #395  
Old 11-13-2012, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
The closest thing I can relate to is that the car is in a wrong (very high) gear, so the engine just can't rev up at all. But I have the sport auto and this thing has 8 gears. This means the gear ratios are very close to each other. I would think I would at least feel the engine struggle if it is at one or even two gears higher than required, but no.

Then after two seconds, the rpm shoots up and it darts off.

And no, I'm not in manual mode. Just normal mode.

And to be fair, the response is much better in sport mode, but it is retarded to drive with high rpms in daily commute in rush hour. There are days where u just don't want to bother toggling the shifter left and right just to get that few moments of immediate response.
Thats a pretty common problems with transmssion programs that are design for high efficency. It always want to go to the highest gear possible and if you floor the car at 30 MPH and 7th gear or 65 MPH at 8 gear, the engine will get bog down. Once the transmission shift down two gears or more, the rpm will shoot up and the car will jerk while it takes off. The best work around is shift it into DS mode when you know you will need the passing power and accelarate slowly.
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Old 11-13-2012, 03:35 PM
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Of course you do... you have more power... That has nothing to do with the issues described.
This is making me laugh. I think it has everything to do with the issue or sensation described.
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  #397  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:37 PM
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Thats a pretty common problems with transmssion programs that are design for high efficency. It always want to go to the highest gear possible and if you floor the car at 30 MPH and 7th gear or 65 MPH at 8 gear, the engine will get bog down. Once the transmission shift down two gears or more, the rpm will shoot up and the car will jerk while it takes off. The best work around is shift it into DS mode when you know you will need the passing power and accelarate slowly.
Yes. I understand that the transmission likes to go in higher gear for fuel economy and I'm ok with that for daily driving. I'm just saying that it should be more sensitive to my right foot and should be more eager to accelerate and downshift when I need it, without the need to shift anything with my hands.

But now with the Sprint Booster, it is much more willing to accelerate and downshift. In a car with automatic transmission, the car responds mainly to the gas pedal. How the car reacts to the pedal depends on the interpretation, and this is determined by the software. With a Sprint Booster, nothing except the signal of the gas pedal is changed, but yet the car behaves much differently, so it is not hardware related. My point is that those that have this lag issue is caused by bad software. Bad in terms of response, that is. Maybe they do it so they meet the gas mileages that they claim or to meet the EURO 5/6 regulations. But if I wanted an economical car, I'd get a Prius.

You can have all the power you want but it is useless if it doesn't respond sharply to your right foot.
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  #398  
Old 11-13-2012, 10:40 PM
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Originally Posted by douggie View Post
Yes. I understand that the transmission likes to go in higher gear for fuel economy and I'm ok with that for daily driving. I'm just saying that it should be more sensitive to my right foot and should be more eager to accelerate and downshift when I need it, without the need to shift anything with my hands.

But now with the Sprint Booster, it is much more willing to accelerate and downshift. In a car with automatic transmission, the car responds mainly to the gas pedal. How the car reacts to the pedal depends on the interpretation, and this is determined by the software. With a Sprint Booster, nothing except the signal of the gas pedal is changed, but yet the car behaves much differently, so it is not hardware related. My point is that those that have this lag issue is caused by bad software. Bad in terms of response, that is. Maybe they do it so they meet the gas mileages that they claim or to meet the EURO 5/6 regulations. But if I wanted an economical car, I'd get a Prius.

You can have all the power you want but it is useless if it doesn't respond sharply to your right foot.
Do you have a 2011 535i?
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  #399  
Old 11-14-2012, 06:28 AM
The X Men The X Men is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by douggie View Post
Yes. I understand that the transmission likes to go in higher gear for fuel economy and I'm ok with that for daily driving. I'm just saying that it should be more sensitive to my right foot and should be more eager to accelerate and downshift when I need it, without the need to shift anything with my hands.

But now with the Sprint Booster, it is much more willing to accelerate and downshift. In a car with automatic transmission, the car responds mainly to the gas pedal. How the car reacts to the pedal depends on the interpretation, and this is determined by the software. With a Sprint Booster, nothing except the signal of the gas pedal is changed, but yet the car behaves much differently, so it is not hardware related. My point is that those that have this lag issue is caused by bad software. Bad in terms of response, that is. Maybe they do it so they meet the gas mileages that they claim or to meet the EURO 5/6 regulations. But if I wanted an economical car, I'd get a Prius.

You can have all the power you want but it is useless if it doesn't respond sharply to your right foot.
Think of it this way, when you are riding a 21 speed bike and you are on the 21th speed, how long does it take you to down shift to 3rd gear. Yes, I agree with you that the software can be more agressive, but thats what the sport mode is for, it keep the tranny in a lower gear and has a different throttle map, much like your sprint booster.
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  #400  
Old 11-14-2012, 07:36 AM
PeterC4 PeterC4 is offline
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Originally Posted by The X Men View Post
Think of it this way, when you are riding a 21 speed bike and you are on the 21th speed, how long does it take you to down shift to 3rd gear. Yes, I agree with you that the software can be more agressive, but thats what the sport mode is for, it keep the tranny in a lower gear and has a different throttle map, much like your sprint booster.
+1 when you've got 8 speeds...well you're bound to be lumbering along in the highest gears. A manual is much better in this regard.
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