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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:30 AM
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If it was CAFE standards then wouldn't the only vehicles affected be the ones built for the US? Would BMW force the rest of the world to accept a compromised design just to comply with CAFE standards in the US?
Or is this just the price we pay for outstanding fuel efficiency?
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  #77  
Old 06-30-2011, 11:45 AM
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In my judgement, If I look in my mirror and decide that it would be in my best interest to make more space between whatever I see and myself - and command my 300HP vehicle to get a move on by stepping deeply into my peddle - and it doesn't respond for 2 seconds (50 feet of unwanted closure at only 35mph vehicle-to-vehicle speed difference), I'd call that dangerous. Wouldn't you? I think BMW would agree. Now let's hope they can fix it.
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  #78  
Old 06-30-2011, 12:38 PM
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Mine isn't that bad.
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  #79  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:02 PM
Raddius Raddius is offline
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On the 528's my money is on this being a purposeful programming for fuel economy in D particularly since in DS there is no lag. At least that's how it seems with mine.

My Enclave had a similar MPG minded programming that created what felt like dead spots when accelerating. After a reprogram the dead spots went away and the SA warned it may decrease fuel economy, which I didn't care about (it's an 8 passenger vehicle...fuel economy isn't at the top of the list for this particular vehicle).
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  #80  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:08 PM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is online now
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Someone on another 5 series forum posted this about a year ago.

Note the steps he outlines in the first post. It's supposed to have helped eliminate the tip-in problem and delayed acceleration.

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455949
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  #81  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:08 PM
Raddius Raddius is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
In my judgement, If I look in my mirror and decide that it would be in my best interest to make more space between whatever I see and myself - and command my 300HP vehicle to get a move on by stepping deeply into my peddle - and it doesn't respond for 2 seconds (50 feet of unwanted closure at only 35mph vehicle-to-vehicle speed difference), I'd call that dangerous. Wouldn't you? I think BMW would agree. Now let's hope they can fix it.
This sounds eerily similar to Toyota's 6-speed auto trans that came with their 3.5L V6 in '07. At random times you'd step on the accelerator and the car would rev but not actually have you in a gear for up to a couple seconds.
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  #82  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:10 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raddius View Post
This sounds eerily similar to Toyota's 6-speed auto trans that came with their 3.5L V6 in '07. At random times you'd step on the accelerator and the car would rev but not actually have you in a gear for up to a couple seconds.
No revs either on the 535
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  #83  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
Someone on another 5 series forum posted this about a year ago.

Note the steps he outlines in the first post. It's supposed to have helped eliminate the tip-in problem and delayed acceleration.

http://f10.5post.com/forums/showthread.php?t=455949
Thanks for posting this.

Full read of the thread suggests that the fix is temporary - and that further suggests that the issue is in the adaptive system.

I'm tempted to try it, but not at the expense of having the appliance not be faulty when the repairman comes to look at it
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  #84  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:23 PM
Raddius Raddius is offline
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Originally Posted by Quacker View Post
No revs either on the 535
Ugh, that's not good.
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  #85  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:48 PM
Markhale1960 Markhale1960 is offline
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My 528i does the same thing

Quote:
Originally Posted by romeofrosty View Post
Took my car to the dealer today. Went for a drive with the shop foreman in the service department. He said the slight lag I felt was "normal". The TSB everyone seems to be refering to in this thread is for the N55 engine, which I understand to be the turbo charged version. My 528i has the N52 engine, which is naturally aspirated. Apparently there is no TSB regarding it, at least that I am aware of. They offered to reflash the adaptive driving memory to start its process over again and said they would check the electronic specs for the throttle movement. As long as they are within their parameters, the tech said there was nothing else he could do.
He gave me the "drive by wire" speech and explained it would not respond like cable or linkage actuated mechanisms. I told him I have a Honda that is also "drive by wire", and the throttle response of that car is instant and consistent throughout its entire pedal travel, not at all like the laziness of the BMW. Again I was told that as long as the readings he got were within specs, there was nothing further he could do. I'm not real happy with that. This is my first experience with BMW and their service procedures, so I'm not sure where to go from here. I did compare it to a loaner 528i they gave me and the throttle response on that car was about the same......still lazy, but maybe a hair better from a dead stop. I guess their take will be since all our cars have the same problem, yours is "normal" and compares with any other new 528i on the lot.
Has anybody with a 528i on this board dealt with this issue? It seems most on this thread have the 535i. Any advice would be appreciated at this point.
I have been asking about this since I bought my 528i last Sept. I even called BMW NA. But played phone tag for a week and gave up. This needs to be recalled. It's a big safety issue. I noticed this on the test drive with a demo and the salesman told me it would take awhile for the computer to get use to my driving. I guess the computer thinks I am an 85 year old man. Or this is a big problem. My money is on the latter since I am only 50.
When I filled out my JD Powers survey, I made sure that information was on the survey. I guess it will take a few accidents, deaths and a lot of bad publicity to get something done on this. Just hope no one has to die before this gets addressed.
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  #86  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobRBob View Post
Mine isn't that bad.
Mine is.
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  #87  
Old 06-30-2011, 05:37 PM
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I'm getting impatient. Does the Sprint Booster fit the F10? Has any one installed it?
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  #88  
Old 06-30-2011, 06:41 PM
Kar Don Kar Don is offline
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Does the 550i have this issue?
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  #89  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:17 AM
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I visited my dealer yesterday, buying some accessories. Saw service frontman who is in charge for all computer diagnosis machine and asked about "tip-in/jerking" issue awareness. He said there will be new software update available for download on 19/JUL (if I'm not mistaken with the date) to fix this.

I'm not asking anything further why 19/JUL, what version it will be, who told him this, etc... I can still manage the F10, but surely will do update if there is any improvement available. The only car I had and not able to control the pedal was 2006 toyota rav 4.
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  #90  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:05 AM
romeofrosty romeofrosty is offline
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Got my car back from the service department today. In regards to the hesitation issue, this is what they wrote;
There is a hesitation while accelerating from a stop.
NRN No repair needed at this time
Test drove with customer, indicated to the customer vehicle feels normal. Reset the learning adaptations through DME service functions. Checked for bullitens / measures. There are no faults in the vehicle. The vehicle is operating as designed. Throttle response is instant once sport mode is selected.

I like the "vehicle is operating as designed" line. Yeah, it is....poorly.
I'll drive it around for a bit to see if it will "learn" an improved throttle response. And I won't be holding my breath, either.
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  #91  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:18 AM
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BobRBob BobRBob is offline
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Not surprised. There's no fix because there's nothing "wrong". The car is operating as designed.
It's a design flaw.
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  #92  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:24 AM
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If they don't fix this, I may end up trading in the car. It's maddening.
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  #93  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:32 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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I also think this has a slight cultural flavour. In Europe pretty much everyone drove MTs during my 25 years living there. Automatic cars were terrible since they were predominantly mated with the tiny low torque engines used in Europe. Take off was exceedingly slow and fuel consumption suffered compared to the MTs. In the US automatics have predominmantly been mated with huge torquey engines with immidiate response from stand still. Hence americans expect a much more immediate response from stand still than Europeans do and BMW being a european company might not fully understand the US expectations and the importance of them.
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  #94  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:45 AM
Raddius Raddius is offline
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I'm still thinking it's a purposeful design of the software. There's no fix because there's nothing wrong. The only way it'll change is if there's enough demand/complaint for them to change the programming. Even then I doubt there will be a mass reprogramming. It'll be available upon request.

I've seen both Lexus (with their lousy tip-in on '02 gen ES 300's) and Buick (with their acceleration dead spots on '08 gen Enclave's) do this. In the case of Lexus they sent out letters letting owners know a voluntary reprogramming was available (mighty nice of them) and Buick SA's seemed knowledgeable about the reprogram when asked and applied it without hesitation.
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  #95  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I also think this has a slight cultural flavour. In Europe pretty much everyone drove MTs during my 25 years living there. Automatic cars were terrible since they were predominantly mated with the tiny low torque engines used in Europe. Take off was exceedingly slow and fuel consumption suffered compared to the MTs. In the US automatics have predominmantly been mated with huge torquey engines with immidiate response from stand still. Hence americans expect a much more immediate response from stand still than Europeans do and BMW being a european company might not fully understand the US expectations and the importance of them.
It's not the engine's response I am worried about. It's the ability to drive smoothly. I cannot, and neither can my wife, get this car to pull away from either a dead stop or a slight rolling stop smoothly and with consistent speed, more than 20% of the time. You have three options normally for takeoff in this car: you have to feather the throttle and creep away like a cat burglar; tromp on it and leave like Don Garlits; or use normal throttle input, have nothing happen for 2 seconds, and then feel like a garbage truck just rear ended you. Every once in a while, or immediately after the throttle reprogramming trick, it's possible to pull away smoothly. If this car was being used for a limo service, the driver would have no repeat customers. If your kids take their driver's exam in this car, they'll fail. It really is that bad.
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Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians
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  #96  
Old 07-01-2011, 10:55 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
It's not the engine's response I am worried about. It's the ability to drive smoothly. I cannot, and neither can my wife, get this car to pull away from either a dead stop or a slight rolling stop smoothly and with consistent speed, more than 20% of the time. You have three options normally for takeoff in this car: you have to feather the throttle and creep away like a cat burglar; tromp on it and leave like Don Garlits; or use normal throttle input, have nothing happen for 2 seconds, and then feel like a garbage truck just rear ended you. Every once in a while, or immediately after the throttle reprogramming trick, it's possible to pull away smoothly. If this car was being used for a limo service, the driver would have no repeat customers. If your kids take their driver's exam in this car, they'll fail. It really is that bad.
It's the response to throttle input and the result is like a low TQ engine. Nothing and then a lot. It's not the engine as you say, it's the tranny. The difference is that the 535i is fully capable of providing instant smooth take offs when a little NA four banger is not but I think some of the disinterrest in addressing it could come from a culture that is not expecting the american style of automatic cars so noone over there really complains.
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  #97  
Old 07-01-2011, 11:07 AM
Quacker Quacker is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pyramid View Post
I visited my dealer yesterday, buying some accessories. Saw service frontman who is in charge for all computer diagnosis machine and asked about "tip-in/jerking" issue awareness. He said there will be new software update available for download on 19/JUL (if I'm not mistaken with the date) to fix this.

I'm not asking anything further why 19/JUL, what version it will be, who told him this, etc... I can still manage the F10, but surely will do update if there is any improvement available. The only car I had and not able to control the pedal was 2006 toyota rav 4.
I'm really focused on this post. If true, it means that BMW is not insulated from the problem and is taking steps to resolve it. Ill try to get something out of my SA on it.

Remember that the new Audi has the same transmission and an engine with the same HP as the 535. If it drives well, it would be a further blow to BMW. So if not for safety sake, for marketing reasons, BMW can't afford to ignore it. At least according to me.

Q
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  #98  
Old 07-01-2011, 11:38 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's the response to throttle input and the result is like a low TQ engine. Nothing and then a lot. It's not the engine as you say, it's the tranny. The difference is that the 535i is fully capable of providing instant smooth take offs when a little NA four banger is not but I think some of the disinterrest in addressing it could come from a culture that is not expecting the american style of automatic cars so noone over there really complains.
I don't think it's the tranny, I think it's the throttle mapping. It's just not linear or smooth. but regardless, it should be much easier to drive. I can drive a stick smoother than this while wearing work boots.
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Heaven is where the police are British, the cooks are French, the cars are German, the lovers are Italian and it is all organised by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the cooks are English, the cars are French, the lovers are Swiss, and it is all organised by the Italians
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  #99  
Old 07-01-2011, 11:45 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I don't think it's the tranny, I think it's the throttle mapping. It's just not linear or smooth. but regardless, it should be much easier to drive. I can drive a stick smoother than this while wearing work boots.
I agree that it's bad and that it could likely be the throttle mapping, that said I didn't find it to be that difficult to adapt to, the F10 is pretty much like the E60 535i in this regard maybe even quite a bit better. Some E60s like the ferious 535xi loaner I had for a while had a brutal turbo lag, I'm used to it though from my early SAAB turbo days and personally do not find this to be much of an issue even if a more linear power delivery is preferable, especially to save the drive train from the wifey's neck snapping take offs
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  #100  
Old 07-01-2011, 12:04 PM
Quacker Quacker is offline
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At least in my case, I don't think that mapping is the culprit. When the lag occurs, there seems to be little difference if I'm at 30% or 80% throttle - it just doesn't go. In fact in a few cases, realizing that I was in this weird state of seeming suspended locomotion, I've stepped into it even more deeply and it did not noticeably respond. No - I've never floored it, because if it let loose, there would be way too much power.
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