Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)

E60 (2004 - 2010)
BMW 5-Series (E60 chassis) was first seen in the Unites States in the fall of 2003 with a 2004 Model Year designation. The E60 is now available as a 528i, 528xi, 535i, 535xi, 550i and a 535xi sports wagon! -- View the E60 Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #51  
Old 06-29-2011, 03:35 AM
jmulls jmulls is offline
Registered User
Location: NJ
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6
Mein Auto: 2008 528i
Thanks again will... That is what I thought, I'd need both cables. What scares me is running power directly to the battery... this is always interpreted as a culprit pending any electrical issues. While it may not directly void your warranty... the dealer will see that as an extra load on the system that it was designed not to take... and will point any computer/electrical problems to the amp... and we all know that is BS... but we also know what repairs on a BMW cost also

Thanks again for your help... now I gotta figure out if I do the mod... the price really isn't that bad considering this amp was going 3-400 range before.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 07-07-2011, 08:47 PM
phoenix13 phoenix13 is offline
Registered User
Location: Ohio
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6
Mein Auto: 2006 525xi
Is the draw on the system and the battery that big of a concern if a capacitor or two is added to the mix? I am planning on adding three amps but will be adding 2 micro Farad to the system.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 07-08-2011, 03:17 AM
jmulls jmulls is offline
Registered User
Location: NJ
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 6
Mein Auto: 2008 528i
All I can say is what my local dealership told me. Modifications to the system that resulted in additional cabling to the battery would be viewed as a drain not expected on the current system. With no evidence available to say what this may or may not do to a computer controlled car like a BMW is... is impossible, and as such, they would not honor warranty on any electrical related issues that may arise. When I asked them to define electrical issues... I was told, pretty much everything in the car .
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 07-08-2011, 09:13 AM
Oceans10's Avatar
Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mein Auto: BMW 535i + 535XI wagon
Hi all,

I am just going through a sound overhaul now and learned a few things from the dealer/installer.

My 535i with Logic 7 has 11 speakers, 13 if you count the far rear mid and tweeter set up.
It is not necessary to change all the speaker units with an aftermarket kit like the BSW mentioned. All you need is the front 3-way drivers and possibly a sub woofer.

The speakers themselves are only as good as the sound signal that is pushed through them, so start with the source. This is accomplished by tapping into the analog output signal from the head unit and routing it through a DSP that brings it back to original digital format, then re-processes to analog of much higher quality. Now run this through new power amplifiers driving the speakers.
Some DSPs have active cross over filters and equalization settings. The JL Audio CleanSweep is a good choice, but there are many other options. I am using the JBL MS-8 which also reads the car's interior acoustics and automatically creates the EQ settings, including Logic 7. Amps are JL Audio, 2x150w 4ohm for the subs, 4x70w for the mids and tweeters.

Replacing the under seat 6.5" woofers with Earthquake SWS 8s is a mistake. Those units are pure subs and do not handle frequencies above 200hz. This leaves a huge gap to the 4" mids which usually play in the 800-3,000hz area. I am using Jehnert 8" mid bass/subs which also fit and play from 30hz up to 900hz. my mids and tweeters are Dynaudio MD 142 and MD 102.
Some guys install kickboards with 7" mid bass units. That would work with the Earthquakes but require fairly obvious modding of the car's interior below the dash.
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 07-08-2011, 09:57 AM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceans10 View Post
Replacing the under seat 6.5" woofers with Earthquake SWS 8s is a mistake. Those units are pure subs and do not handle frequencies above 200hz.
I don't believe that is true. Can you point us to a response curve test result?
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 07-08-2011, 11:03 AM
Oceans10's Avatar
Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mein Auto: BMW 535i + 535XI wagon
Will,

I don't see any official frequency response info from Earthquake. just going by what my installer told me. You may get a sound out of them at higher frequencies, but it won't sound good.

Here's from another thread on the topic: "The SWS is not a good choice for that passband. They are designed to work as subwoofers so they don't do well playing higher up into the midrange passband. My SWS-8 doesn't sound good above 120Hz. You'd probably want to look into Morels, Dynaudio or maybe even the Hertz Space 8 for that passband. "

I actually bought a pair and had to resell them unused and unopened.
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 07-08-2011, 12:19 PM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by Oceans10 View Post
Will,

I don't see any official frequency response info from Earthquake. just going by what my installer told me. You may get a sound out of them at higher frequencies, but it won't sound good.

Here's from another thread on the topic: "The SWS is not a good choice for that passband. They are designed to work as subwoofers so they don't do well playing higher up into the midrange passband. My SWS-8 doesn't sound good above 120Hz. You'd probably want to look into Morels, Dynaudio or maybe even the Hertz Space 8 for that passband. "

I actually bought a pair and had to resell them unused and unopened.
It's a pretty heavy statement, is why I ask. Generally, if an 8" speaker lacks any reproduction capability above 200hz, it would be because the manufacturer went out of their way - and probably added some crossover electronics - to make it that way. It would be highly unlikely, IMO and IME, that a woofer speaker would not be able to extend above 200hz as part of its natural tonal characteristic.

Surely, the Jehnert subs sound great in a BMW installation, and I see that they offer an adapter for easy fit in an E60. It's nice to know there is more than one choice.

On the other hand, Earthquake produces the SWS-8 for specific application as a BMW sub replacement, and while anyone can of course prefer one of those brands over the other, I think it may be a stretch to assert that the SWS-8 subs are unfit for use in a BMW because of some designed response characteristic.

I couldn't find any frequency response info for an SWS-8 either. I looked when I read your post. But I just took a Stereophile test CD out to my car to listen to some test tones. I can clearly hear output from my subs above 200hz.
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 09-16-2011, 11:06 AM
OniKoroshi OniKoroshi is offline
Registered User
Location: Socal
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 4
Mein Auto: 08 535i
With the Blaupunkpt PnP cable, I'm assuming it provides the line output signal to the PnP amp and sends the signal back through the same cable to the existing speaker wire. It looks like the PnP cable has 5 sets of connectors to the amp with 4 pins each. I'm guessing the pins are the +- for the input and +- for the output return.

Would it be possible to use the PnP cable and wire that into a LOC to provide pre amp outputs to a standard amp, then use splice the PnP wires to the amp to send the signal back through the existing speaker wire so you don't have to run new speaker wire?
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 09-16-2011, 02:45 PM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by OniKoroshi View Post
With the Blaupunkpt PnP cable, I'm assuming it provides the line output signal to the PnP amp and sends the signal back through the same cable to the existing speaker wire. It looks like the PnP cable has 5 sets of connectors to the amp with 4 pins each. I'm guessing the pins are the +- for the input and +- for the output return.

Would it be possible to use the PnP cable and wire that into a LOC to provide pre amp outputs to a standard amp, then use splice the PnP wires to the amp to send the signal back through the existing speaker wire so you don't have to run new speaker wire?
It's been at least two years since I did that, but I'm pretty sure I just cut the OEM speaker wires right as they came out of the OEM amp and connected them to the Blaupunkt output.

My car is old now, and BMW will certainly never see it again, but even on a lease I would think that reconnecting those speaker wires to the OEM amp using some heat shrink sleeves would either go unnoticed by, or uncared-about by BMW.

Certainly, I would not go to the trouble to run new speaker wire. What a PITA that would be.
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 09-19-2011, 12:06 AM
trades2much trades2much is offline
Registered User
Location: oregon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26
Mein Auto: BMW 525i
I just bought an 04' 525i and it doesn't have the Logic7 system just the standard suck butt system, after reading these posts I went out and looked under all the seats and I see no sub-woofers. Probably explains the total absence of bass! System is clear, like a set of earbuds laying on the seat! Where are these subs, and where is the factory amp located?
Reply With Quote
  #61  
Old 09-19-2011, 08:21 AM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by trades2much View Post
I just bought an 04' 525i and it doesn't have the Logic7 system just the standard suck butt system, after reading these posts I went out and looked under all the seats and I see no sub-woofers. Probably explains the total absence of bass! System is clear, like a set of earbuds laying on the seat! Where are these subs, and where is the factory amp located?
Under each seat you'll see a black plastic grill flush with the floor. The subs are under those. To take those grills off, you need to unscrew the seat from the frame via a hex bolt at each corner.

The amp is near the rear driver's side wheel well. Take out the trim on the side of the trunk to access.
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #62  
Old 09-19-2011, 01:16 PM
trades2much trades2much is offline
Registered User
Location: oregon
 
Join Date: Sep 2011
Posts: 26
Mein Auto: BMW 525i
Quote:
Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
Under each seat you'll see a black plastic grill flush with the floor. The subs are under those. To take those grills off, you need to unscrew the seat from the frame via a hex bolt at each corner.

The amp is near the rear driver's side wheel well. Take out the trim on the side of the trunk to access.
thank-you, I will look again tonight.
Reply With Quote
  #63  
Old 09-19-2011, 01:22 PM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by trades2much View Post
thank-you, I will look again tonight.
That was a "walking through the airport" post. To clarify - you unscrew the seats so that you can tilt them back to give yourself adequate access with a screwdriver to get at the grills.
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #64  
Old 09-30-2011, 01:24 AM
justadamname justadamname is offline
Registered User
Location: brooklyn
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Mein Auto: 535 i
im hoping that you guys can help me. i have a 2008 535i and currently have the bsw stage 1 upgrade and was looking to change the amp and i was just wondering which one do i go with the blaupunkt pnp 475 of the 555? also i have not added any subs but might add the earthquake subs later on if needed if this helps...thank you
Reply With Quote
  #65  
Old 09-30-2011, 01:40 AM
justadamname justadamname is offline
Registered User
Location: brooklyn
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3
Mein Auto: 535 i
Sorry I forgot to say that I have the standard audio not the logic 7
Reply With Quote
  #66  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:28 AM
WillInDenver's Avatar
WillInDenver WillInDenver is offline
1oz perception-1# obscure
Location: Denver
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,311
Mein Auto: 2013 535i XDrive M-Sport
Quote:
Originally Posted by justadamname View Post
im hoping that you guys can help me. i have a 2008 535i and currently have the bsw stage 1 upgrade and was looking to change the amp and i was just wondering which one do i go with the blaupunkt pnp 475 of the 555? also i have not added any subs but might add the earthquake subs later on if needed if this helps...thank you
The 475 is a 4 channel amp, and the standard audio system has 5 channels of output. If you use the 475, you will need a separate amp for the sub channel.

The 555 has five output channels. It is generally a more suitable amp for the E60.
__________________
-Will
2013 535i xDrive M-Sport | 2005 545i Sport (Retired and Missed) | 2001 X5 3.0 Sport (Retired)
Reply With Quote
  #67  
Old 09-30-2011, 06:48 AM
Raymond Lee Raymond Lee is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Lake Forest, CA
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 245
Send a message via AIM to Raymond Lee
Mein Auto: BMW and MBZ
I am not 100% sure but BMW is not designed for tinkering with after market sound system. Just look at battery management system in the car. Stock sound system really sucks but we'll have to live with it. Even Logic 7 in BMW is not like the one in Mercedez Benz.
Reply With Quote
  #68  
Old 10-14-2011, 09:57 PM
M_powerd M_powerd is offline
Registered User
Location: Omaha
 
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 1
Mein Auto: 2005 545i
First post - Audio

I just bought my first bimmer ('05 545i 6sp manual). I am a bit disenhearted to learn the audio system sucks so bad (base not Logic) and upgrading is so difficult and limiting. Just to back up a bit, can anyone tell me (or direct me) to an actual base audio spec sheet? Amp Power? Speaker power ratings? exact speaker sizes,etc...?

2nd, what's better - cheaper or easier - upgraded amp (555?) w/ stock speakers or upgraded speakers (BSW?) with stock amp??? Assuming I can afford to do only one first.

I suspect I know the answer but just curious about other opinions.

Thanks in advance!
Reply With Quote
  #69  
Old 10-15-2011, 07:20 AM
Oceans10's Avatar
Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mein Auto: BMW 535i + 535XI wagon
Agree that the OEM system is crappy. The BSW speakers are not that great, though a little better than the factory system. (What can you expect for $500 and 11 speaker units?)
In order to get high quality sound, ideally you need to tap into the (analog) audio output signal and convert it back to digital source. You then have a clean signal to work with and can route that through new speakers and amps. This is well worth doing and clears up the muddyness of the stock output signal.

It is not necessary to replace every single speaker unit in the car, in fact it makes it much more challenging to improve the overall audio quality by having too many units to tune and calibrate. I would recommend replacing front tweeters, mids and woofers, then possibly add a dedicated sub. There are many sophisticated DSP processors designed to reconvert the stock output signal and provide a high degree of tuning, some through preset selections like L7, Club, Theater, Hall etc. Some even read the acoustics in the car's cabin and build a sonic profile that eliminates dead spots, echo effects etc. Some brands to consider are JL Audio Cleansweep, Alpine PXE-H650 or H800, Audison Bit One, JBL MS-8, etc. Make sure the unit has enough channels to process all your speaker units. I am using the JBL which has 8 channels, that leaves room for a sub (3-way front L+R is 6 channels, plus sub is 7).

Some good speaker brands to consider are Focal, Morel, Dynaudio, Rainbow.
BMWs are tough to outfit with speakers because the mids in the doors are relatively small. This makes it challenging to cover the lower mid spectrum. My E60 has 4" mids and there isn't really room in the door to go bigger. I ended up with a set of MB Quart from Germany, also 8" woofers under front seats. Some people put larger (5-7") mids in kickboards in the corner of the footwells but your knees would likely knock against those.

Overall I invested $3000 in my system. I am happy i did as the sound improvement was well worth it. I plan on keeping my car for 8 years or so.
I kept the cost down by buying some high quality used amps (TRU Technology S4400 and SSLD 8i line conditioner.) The speaker units were $900. No sub yet, I plan on installing it in the skipass mounted in a box. All the hardware is mounted under the hat rack in the trunk so you can't see it unless you bend down and look up. The wiring taps into the factory output on the left side trunk panel.
Reply With Quote
  #70  
Old 10-15-2011, 10:08 AM
ArtchredTTU ArtchredTTU is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: texas
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Posts: 521
Mein Auto: 550i
Lol the sound isn't that terrible. Y'all crack me up
Reply With Quote
  #71  
Old 12-19-2011, 07:49 AM
naenyc naenyc is offline
Registered User
Location: New York, NY USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2
Mein Auto: 545i
Signal processing: How many channels are required?

Like many, I'm thinking up upgrading my Logic 7 system on a 2004 BMW 545i.

Do you really need 13 channels of output to be converted from speaker level to line level?
Or is there simply fronts and rears and a 4 channel processor would be "good" enough.

Alpine PXE-H650 $173
Alpine PXE-H660 $240


More precisely, is there any signal processing on the on-board amp that performs some magic and maybe:

high-pass:
low-pass:
band-pass:

If so, then at least two of these units are required, if not, why not just grab the signal from the front doors and rear deck and used that for all 13 channels.

On that subject, do you really need this unit to clean-up the signals as many amps accept speaker level inputs?


Thanks in advance.
Reply With Quote
  #72  
Old 12-19-2011, 08:25 AM
Oceans10's Avatar
Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mein Auto: BMW 535i + 535XI wagon
You do not need to change 13 speakers. I am changing the front set, center dash and rear doors in our 535 wagon. Leaving everyting else as it is from factory with L7. The enhancement in sound is substantial and it is the least invasive way of improving L7 5:1 sound.

You can also add new amps, but then you need to take it off the old amp and swap over the speaker wires to new amps.
I would suggest using some sort of summing device that handles the cross overs. Maybe http://www.audiocontrol.com/t34/Mobile-Audio.html. Have a look.
__________________
Audio: Jehnert Flatline speakers, Mobridge M1000 DA2 prepro, Helix P-DSP, Zapco Z-150.6 amp, iDock on dash
Performance: Protuned Cobb, AR Downpipes, ER FMIC/CP, DCI, RB turbos, KW V2 coilovers, AEM 320E LPFP/ported fuel rail
Reply With Quote
  #73  
Old 12-19-2011, 08:49 AM
naenyc naenyc is offline
Registered User
Location: New York, NY USA
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Posts: 2
Mein Auto: 545i
Fantastic response time.

Willing to spend enough, but don't want to go crazy.
I'm into the 80/20 rule, well maybe the 90/40 when it comes to stereo

It would appear that amps are one of the more economical upgrade options and though
I am still trying to see if the the "A/B versus D" has merit, my current plans are to use 2 amps for simplicity.

Pioneer PRS-D4200F 75 x 4, which I have sitting around: Accepts speaker level
JL XD600/6 Accepts speaker level inputs.

Life would certainly be simple if something like this could be done:

JL XD600/6: Drives
Front Doors
Rear Deck
Rear Doors

PRS-D4200F: Drives
Front Subs Bridged
or maybe
Don't Bridge and drive center speaker with one channel

Clean Power always served me well in the past. Usually can make mediocre speakers sound at least good.

Have yet to decide on speakers as something nice in the $150-$250 range is more difficult to find.

However if you firmly believe a signal processor is then I should purchase one, but would like to keep it to 4-6 channels to keep costs down.

As far as a summing device, I guess I'm confused. Why do I need this box?

If the onboard amp is sending out the full spectrum, then let the amps do the filtering, if not then I need to understand what speakers are receiving what frequencies ... or at least I think.

Thanks

Last edited by naenyc; 12-19-2011 at 08:56 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #74  
Old 12-20-2011, 08:17 AM
focal focal is offline
Registered User
Location: Canada
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 20
Mein Auto: 525xi
I too find the stock L7 system lacking, in midbass but more importantly clarity and "air" in the upper mid and tweeter range.

I've acquired all my gear now and will be installing next week when I'm off work.

- Focal 4w2 mid bass drivers for the front door
- Boston Neo Type M tweeters
- using an OEM tweeter to add to the centre channel
- Audio Control L6 line output converter and summing device
- a custom harness bought from a forum member so I can tap the wires without splicing the OEM wires.
- 4 channel Audison LRx4.300 to power the front speakers and underseat woofers

most of the gear was bought used off various forums or from a local audio store. It should give me what I'm looking for.

as noted in other replies, you really don't have to put too much emphasis on the rear speakers. The stock will do.

The key with aftermarket gear is still in the tuning, and the combination of high/low pass/gains controls on the amp and LC6/LOC plus the iDrive L7 EQ controls should be able to dial in a decent sound without the added expense of outboard processors.

----

re summing question....the L7 automatically cuts off frequencies to the speakers to protect them and utilize them . A summing device gathers the all the inputs to create a full frequency signal (20Hz-20kHz). Important if you start installing speakers capably of a wider range or want to control it more. Example would be to have better front speakers capable of 120-150Hz. Setting a bandpass for the underseat woofers (ie 80-200Hz) and adding a sub with a low pass of 80Hz.

from what I've gathered, the front speakers are high pass by the L7/iDrive around 250Hz and the underseat woofers are low pass around 300Hz. the rear speakers and centre are also sent a signal above 250Hz. Summing the front and under seat signal will give you back a full range signal. Although you are still at the mercy of the OEM EQ for better or worse.

Last edited by focal; 12-20-2011 at 08:52 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #75  
Old 12-20-2011, 08:28 AM
Oceans10's Avatar
Oceans10 Oceans10 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CT
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,499
Mein Auto: BMW 535i + 535XI wagon
I got the harness as well so I can pull signal off the amp and feed my JBL MS-8 in my 535 sedan.

The tweeter upgrade in the A pillars should be sufficient. The center dash driver is a 4" mid range, same as is in the doors. Just upgrade the mid to a better quality that has broader extension. Don't think you need another tweeter there, and the L7 is likely not sending high frequency signal to the center anyway.

Are you replacing the under seat woofers? I highly recommend the Jehnert Flatline. People also add Earthquake SWS 8, but they need a spacer bracket to fit. (Comes standard with the Jehnerts)

Let us know how it turns out. Very curious about the Audio Control and how that performs.
__________________
Audio: Jehnert Flatline speakers, Mobridge M1000 DA2 prepro, Helix P-DSP, Zapco Z-150.6 amp, iDock on dash
Performance: Protuned Cobb, AR Downpipes, ER FMIC/CP, DCI, RB turbos, KW V2 coilovers, AEM 320E LPFP/ported fuel rail

Last edited by Oceans10; 12-20-2011 at 08:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E60 (2004 - 2010)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 04:28 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms