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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 06-28-2011, 04:46 PM
E60 550i E60 550i is offline
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I couldn't agree more. The F10 has many great features and is more like my 745i, which I really didn't like. However, the BMW 5 Series has been changing from a wonderful E39 to the E60 to, sadly, the F10. I may move to having two x5s. This model still handles well. I still love BMW but if they continue to emulate MB, I amy have to change to some other sedan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by gregb10 View Post
November 2011,, after leasing two E60s, an 06 and an 08,, both X Drive as well.

I was very excited at first. It felt like I was upgrading to a real world class car. And it is. The interior is beautiful and well built, very luxurious. The ride is comfortable and the car handles nicely for its size.

However, at the end of the day, I miss my E60,, I should have kept it for a few more years, then upgraded to the F10. While it is defiantly more luxurious and has more gadgets, I feel the E60 is more of a drivers car. While the F10 might technically handle a turn better, with less under-steer, the E60 feels more nimble and provides greater feedback. Plus its faster. The F10 is wider and harder to negotiate in tight areas. You have to be more aware and careful. The E60 feels dated compared to the F10 but the E60 feels more like a drivers car.

I'm not insulting the F10,,, its a great car for what it is. However, I do feel its going more in the direction of a luxury then a drivers car. The lines have blurred between the 5 and the 7. Gadgets and features are great, if thats what you care more about. Aside from the bigger screen, I dont think the electronics are better. Its widely stated that the old nav is better than the new one,, and it is,, this nav is horrible. The screen is bigger and brighter but the directions are the worst. I-drive is still not intuitive. I don't understand why BMW is so bad at interface design. They should consult Apple!!!

Here is where everyone will hate me. My wife stopped working and I have to get her a car. Im getting an 08 535 XI and giving the luxo-mobile to her. She is happy.

At work, I park in a garage that has a circular ramp the goes up several floors. I used to fly up that thing in the E60. On the F10, I have to take it slow,, its too big, I don't have good feedback in the steering and cant intuitively feel where the car is when maneuvering in a tight area.

Im sure many happy new F10 owner will think im out of my mind. Maybe I am,,, but I miss the E60 and im looking forward to driving it again. It really feels like it fits like a glove.
[/QUOTE]
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  #27  
Old 06-28-2011, 04:47 PM
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I'm sorry to say this soltice, but highyo is right. Safety has little to do with active vs. passive issue. Simply put, if you and highyo had a head-on collision with each other, I'd be feeling sorry for you. Why do you think old Volvos were ranked one of highest in safety? Purely due to their massive weight / steel parts. Honda Covic maybe more "nimble" than Volvo, but would end up being totally smashed if hit by a Swedish monster. Just my 2c.
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  #28  
Old 06-28-2011, 05:29 PM
miked miked is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by darbyogill View Post
The E60 has an aluminum front subframe. The F10 has a steel nose. The E60 has hydraulic power steering, the F10 has EPAS. These 2 factors, more than anything else, are what make the F10 feel every bit of the bloated bathtub that it is. Safe or not, safer or not...the F10 is definitely not funner.
For clarification, F10 xdrive models do not have EPAS, they have hydraulic power steering.
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  #29  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:12 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gr8nrg View Post
I'm sorry to say this soltice, but highyo is right. Safety has little to do with active vs. passive issue. Simply put, if you and highyo had a head-on collision with each other, I'd be feeling sorry for you. Why do you think old Volvos were ranked one of highest in safety? Purely due to their massive weight / steel parts. Honda Covic maybe more "nimble" than Volvo, but would end up being totally smashed if hit by a Swedish monster. Just my 2c.
Active safety results in accident avoidance which is preferable in my books. You are only focused on passive safety. If you can't understand my explanation perhaps bmw's is easier to digest.
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ve_safety.html

There's a link to passive safety to the right so you can see the difference. Weight can be positive in certain scenarios for passive safety but it subtracts from active safety components as reflexes and control.

Last edited by solstice; 06-28-2011 at 06:16 PM.
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  #30  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:29 PM
Gcracker Gcracker is offline
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Don't give up

Coming from an M3 I would say that the F10 feels like a big car but I spent some time with the park assist in a parking garage to get some visuals as to how close is close when it comes to objects and surprisingly the car feels bigger than it actually is, in fact only 3 inches wider than my M3....... I would say stick with it
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  #31  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:31 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
Active safety results in accident avoidance which is preferable in my books. You are only focused on passive safety. If you can't understand my explanation perhaps bmw's is easier to digest.
http://www.bmw.com/com/en/insights/t...ve_safety.html

There's a link to passive safety to the right so you can see the difference. Weight can be positive in certain scenarios for passive safety but it subtracts from active safety components as reflexes and control.
truly laughable dude, you may have picked up about 5 bps of increased safety to avoid that elk, and if you get in a head on with an F10, you lose.

and as for your contention that i must be the new breed of BMW buyer, what does that make you? E9X M3 is derided for it's weight, it's certainly much heavier than it's previous iteration.

by the way, as you can see, i don't quite call it an advantage, but if that extra weight (as per the article which you still havent read) makes the difference between life and death, i'll take it. And i think it's worth more than the difference between the f10 and e92 handling.

and as for handling, doesn't look like the F10 M5 did too poorly on the ring. crushed the M3 AND the E60 m5. one of those may be in my sig pic within a year. then what? i guess i'll have to fck off to the M board, where i belong.
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Last edited by highyo; 06-28-2011 at 06:34 PM.
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  #32  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:34 PM
MBrown1003 MBrown1003 is offline
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I haven't jumped into the luxury versus sport debate yet, as the only F10 550i I've been able to drive was a 550xi without sport; my car will be a RWD 550i with M Sport.

That disclaimer aside, active safety is nice, and I'm glad to have it, but I will say that for my two cents (plus a whole lot of dollars if you factor in my lease payments!) I also value passive safety. With a couple of BMW schools and over 30 years of driving experience, I can (and on a few occassions, HAVE) taken full advantage of my car's capabilities to avoid disaster. I recognize that my F10 will be a whole lot less nimble than my M3...so maybe I'll go back to the Three Series again after it...but when I was hit almost head-on by a guy I never saw coming, I was grateful for every bit of the passive safety that was built into my E92 335i. And if there's more in my F10, I'm okay with that.
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  #33  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:43 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
truly laughable dude, you may have picked up about 5 bps of increased safety to avoid that elk, and if you get in a head on with an F10, you lose.

and as for your contention that i must be the new breed of BMW buyer, what does that make you? E9X M3 is derided for it's weight, it's certainly much heavier than it's previous iteration.

by the way, as you can see, i don't quite call it an advantage, but if that extra weight (as per the article which you still havent read) makes the difference between life and death, i'll take it. And i think it's worth more than the difference between the f10 and e92 handling.

and as for handling, doesn't look like the F10 M5 did too poorly on the ring. crushed the M3 AND the E60 m5. one of those may be in my sig pic within a year. then what? i guess i'll have to fck off to the M board, where i belong.
So if the M5 is not signficantly heavier than the 550xi I guess you will pass on it, right?

Last edited by solstice; 06-28-2011 at 06:46 PM.
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  #34  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:48 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
So if the M5 is not signficantly heavier than the 550xi I guess you will pass on it, right?
no because than i will have better active safety control. by your definition, that should be better right?

by the way, good come back
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Last edited by highyo; 06-28-2011 at 06:50 PM.
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  #35  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:58 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
no because than i will have better active safety control. by your definition, that should be better right?
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  #36  
Old 06-28-2011, 06:59 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Safety is far from a being solely a weight issue, there is also the rather important matter of design. To put things into context, the E60 did not have a stellar start in this regard, it flunked the initial US crash tests and ultimately had to be retested to achieve a pasing grade. BMW wasn't going to make that mistake again - the F10 was not going to suffer the same fate. I don't disagree with those that say the extra mass helps, I also don't disagree with those who note that nimbleness and agility is an extremely important factor too. The point I am leading up to is that it does boil down to safety being something that must be designed in. When the first batch of results for the new for 2011 and more stringent crash tests were released, only two cars out of the initial batch that were tested achieved five stars. One was the F10, with all its additional mass, the other was the 2011 Hyundai Sonata - a car that weighs around 1000lb (or more) less than many F10 models. Hyundai certainly isn't using weight and mass to pass those tests. Anyway, I see both sides but I sympathise more with those who see a nimble, agile car as the safer car. The nut behind the wheel is able to play a bigger role if the car is up to the job in this respect. Personally, I've been able to avoid far, far more situations that could have led to an accident or issues than accidents themselves (I have only ever been involved in one in many years of motoring) and my ability to do that is greater in an agile car.
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  #37  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:03 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Safety is far from a being solely a weight issue, there is also the rather important matter of design. To put things into context, the E60 did not have a stellar start in this regard, it flunked the initial US crash tests and ultimately had to be retested to achieve a pasing grade. BMW wasn't going to make that mistake again - the F10 was not going to suffer the same fate. I don't disagree with those that say the extra mass helps, I also don't disagree with those who note that nimbleness and agility is an extremely important factor too. The point I am leading up to is that it does boil down to safety being something that must be designed in. When the first batch of results for the new for 2011 and more stringent crash tests were released, only two cars out of the initial batch that were tested achieved five stars. One was the F10, with all its additional mass, the other was the 2011 Hyundai Sonata - a car that weighs around 1000lb (or more) less than many F10 models. Hyundai certainly isn't using weight and mass to pass those tests. Anyway, I see both sides but I sympathise more with those who see a nimble, agile car as the safer car. The nut behind the wheel is able to play a bigger role if the car is up to the job in this respect. Personally, I've been able to avoid far, far more situations that could have led to an accident or issues than accidents themselves (I have only ever been involved in one in many years of motoring) and my ability to do that is greater in an agile car.
appreciated, but because the F10 is slightly less agile than it's predecessor (check the skidpad slalom results to compare the two) does not make it NOT agile, which this post, and i believe Solstice, pre-supposes.

put another way, i would make the argument that the F10 is more agile than the sonata. even with 1000 less pounds. check the #s. technology is an incredible thing.

the original OP was saying he feels it was less nimble. i am not arguing with that. i introduced the slate article because it simply was topical and came out today. and it makes the very valid and unarguable point: cars are heavier today than they were 5 years ago 10 years ago etc. that and the additional technology makes them safer cars.
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  #38  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:37 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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E39 was head and shoulders above the competiton in terms of handling/performance but in my opinion the E60 was superior to the E39 in performance/handling but the interior of the E60 was awful. I think BMW in the F10 decided put money back into the interior and left the handling part out and as the population ages decided to make it more luxury than sporty. I had a E39 540i and loved it. Interior was great and IMO was better than the E60. When I test drove the E60 a few times loved the handling but hated the interior. When I test drove the F10 loved the interior but hated the handling. Then I looked back and thought I wish BMW would make a 5er like the E39 again.
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  #39  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:42 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
E39 was head and shoulders above the competiton in terms of handling/performance but in my opinion the E60 was superior to the E39 in performance/handling but the interior of the E60 was awful. I think BMW in the F10 decided put money back into the interior and left the handling part out and as the population ages decided to make it more luxury than sporty. I had a E39 540i and loved it. Interior was great and IMO was better than the E60. When I test drove the E60 a few times loved the handling but hated the interior. When I test drove the F10 loved the interior but hated the handling. Then I looked back and thought I wish BMW would make a 5er like the E39 again.
3700 pounds dude, that's how much the E39 weighed. vs 4300 or so for the f10 there's only so much you can do with more powerful engine and ARS.

the past is in the past.
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  #40  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:48 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by highyo View Post
3700 pounds dude, that's how much the E39 weighed. vs 4300 or so for the f10 there's only so much you can do with more powerful engine and ARS.

the past is in the past.
Yes the weight plays to some of the problems but also BMW went with a different steering system which doesn't help feedback. They also tuned the suspension to be more on the luxury than the sporty side. Could be China effect or old demographics but this has also added to the non BMW feel to the F10. If they changed these two items alone it would improve the feel vastly.
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  #41  
Old 06-28-2011, 07:56 PM
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Is funny how some F10 owners try to justify the F10.
Is not about safety, is about driving pleasure, and the E60 and previous 5 series had it, the F10 lost it.

I have a 2011 550i, and I can tell you without a doubt that the sporty feeling is gone, evaporated, the F10 is a regular Lexus.

No one who has driven an E60 M sport can say the F10 is similar, they would be lying.
And those who never had an E60 M sport, could not know the difference.

Let's be honest, and realistic, the BMW 5 series as we knew it and loved is gone, dead.

We have a new generation 5 series which is different, is for Lexus and mercedes customers.

Don't justify it by talking about benefits of heavier is better, if weight were the only issue that makes the F10 inferior, I could deal with that, but is much more than that, is fake steering, artificial suspension, SUV like ride height, lower quality seats, etc.

For those who do not know any better, enjoy your F10, as I am trying to do since I am locked into a 3 year lease, counting down the months, for those who know what I am talking about, stay away from F10, look for alternatives, F10 is not E60.
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Last edited by casper; 06-28-2011 at 07:59 PM.
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  #42  
Old 06-28-2011, 08:08 PM
highyo highyo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by casper View Post
Is funny how some F10 owners try to justify the F10.
Is not about safety, is about driving pleasure, and the E60 and previous 5 series had it, the F10 lost it.

I have a 2011 550i, and I can tell you without a doubt that the sporty feeling is gone, evaporated, the F10 is a regular Lexus.

No one who has driven an E60 M sport can say the F10 is similar, they would be lying.
And those who never had an E60 M sport, could not know the difference.

Let's be honest, and realistic, the BMW 5 series as we knew it and loved is gone, dead.

We have a new generation 5 series which is different, is for Lexus and mercedes customers.

Don't justify it by talking about benefits of heavier is better, if weight were the only issue that makes the F10 inferior, I could deal with that, but is much more than that, is fake steering, artificial suspension, SUV like ride height, lower quality seats, etc.

For those who do not know any better, enjoy your F10, as I am trying to do since I am locked into a 3 year lease, counting down the months, for those who know what I am talking about, stay away from F10, look for alternatives, F10 is not E60.
you really need to sell your car or take the hit on the lease. you hate it! im sure you can find some new sucker who thinks that the F10 is a good car. there's apparently a record number of them sprouting up everywhere. again i say the following, where were these thoughts during your test drive? they all of a sudden sprouted up when you took delivery? sounds like many (solstice and casper) didn't do their homework.

the BMW that i know and love is alive and well in it's latest iteration, the 5 series. it's a little more luxury than sport, a little heavier than E60, but much more nicely appointed, and the engine is a demon. i think that dialing up the system to sport+ is as much excitement as my old 535i Msport pack, just in a different way. more light bomber, less fighter. that probably comes from the 7 series platform. and i wont miss the niggles of my e60 namely the dreaded HPFP but also the crappy interior, design miscues, and slightly "jumpy" feeling the car exhibited when under worse than perfect roads. no such issues with my rocket F10 with Dinan stage 1.

i wish i had some backing here but it seems as though this site is being taken over by guys who either hate their car (Casper) or by ex owners who hated their car (solstice). i may actually consider jumping ship earlier to the M5 just to avoid banter with haters.
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Last edited by highyo; 06-28-2011 at 08:16 PM.
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  #43  
Old 06-28-2011, 08:59 PM
ProRail ProRail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
E39 was head and shoulders above the competiton in terms of handling/performance but in my opinion the E60 was superior to the E39 in performance/handling but the interior of the E60 was awful. I think BMW in the F10 decided put money back into the interior and left the handling part out and as the population ages decided to make it more luxury than sporty. I had a E39 540i and loved it. Interior was great and IMO was better than the E60. When I test drove the E60 a few times loved the handling but hated the interior. When I test drove the F10 loved the interior but hated the handling. Then I looked back and thought I wish BMW would make a 5er like the E39 again.
I love my E-39 and it has performed magnificently whenever called upon to do so, but I would never expect it to be as "nimble" as an M3, or any 3 for that matter. I feel EXTREMELY safe in my 528, but I would be an idiot if I thought it would be more capable of avoiding an accident than a more "tossable" car. Let's face it; different series have different characteristics, but they all have the BMW principles.

Last edited by ProRail; 06-28-2011 at 09:00 PM. Reason: grammar
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  #44  
Old 06-28-2011, 09:08 PM
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I test drove an E39 540 and bought something else. I test drove an E60 550 and bought something else. I test drove an F10 550 and bought one. Don't hate me.

I'll admit the F10's handling wasn't what I found to be sporty enough, so I fixed it by trimming 70+lbs of unsprung mass. Now it handles the curves like a champ! The V8TT allows for large horsepower increases without needing to make your car obnoxiously loud. It's even incredibly fuel efficient for a 500hp car. I am extremely happy with my F10. Don't hate me.
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  #45  
Old 06-28-2011, 09:34 PM
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I had only driven the E39 a few times years ago for various events and also because I almost leased a 530i around 2000 or so. My memories of that car were that it was certainly a great drivers car, offset by a dour interior. Test drove a 540 and that thing was a monster. If I remember correctly, bringing up the resale hot button issue again, the E39 had a very low cost of ownership, buttressed by a high resale value. So it seemed as that car was reliable AND enjoyable. Fast forward 10+ years and we get the F10. Obviously my recollections of the past are hard to pin down, partially because I've been in SUVs for the last 5 years, but the F10 has become "softer", whatever that means. The past is the past. Quite frankly, the only BMW that I feel that still retains the "true" BMW experience is the 1 series. Mind you, I've only driven (out of the current lineup) the X5, 535, 550, 2012 650, a couple of 3 loaners and a couple of 1 loaners. Even the 3 series that is frequently raved about, I felt kind of "blah" driving it. The 1 was engaging. It's also the lightest car in the bunch, which of course is interesting.

However, I do need to ask those that dislike the F10. What else is there? The A6 that many are excited about (myself included), may have better skid pad numbers and better acceleration than a 535, but from a pants in the seat perspective, it was really no better than the F10 in my opinion. The steering was even lighter. It was a competent sedan, but what if you went back to back with a DHP equipped 535? The E class? Snooze. I had a W211 E500, and it was a great car. Competent handling with the adjustable suspension and decent rubber. After driving the W212. it was really lacking. Little road feel, light steering, and didn't even have that comfortable of a ride. Let's see, what else. The Infiniti M is the only one left. I've never driven the newest iteration, but I should. The Roundel liked it. It's always been sporty. However, I can almost guarantee that most BMW fans would NEVER own an Infiniti. The CTS-V or Lexus GS? I don't even need to go there.

So, I'm not necessarily trying to defend the F10, but we need to look at the changed car market as a whole.
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Old 06-28-2011, 09:38 PM
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alewifebp alewifebp is offline
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I'll admit the F10's handling wasn't what I found to be sporty enough, so I fixed it by trimming 70+lbs of unsprung mass. Now it handles the curves like a champ!
This is a great point. What tires you have can have a huge impact on handling. What rims and tires are you running on?
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:07 PM
teutonic7 teutonic7 is offline
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Originally Posted by alewifebp View Post
I had only driven the E39 a few times years ago for various events and also because I almost leased a 530i around 2000 or so. My memories of that car were that it was certainly a great drivers car, offset by a dour interior. Test drove a 540 and that thing was a monster. If I remember correctly, bringing up the resale hot button issue again, the E39 had a very low cost of ownership, buttressed by a high resale value. So it seemed as that car was reliable AND enjoyable. Fast forward 10+ years and we get the F10. Obviously my recollections of the past are hard to pin down, partially because I've been in SUVs for the last 5 years, but the F10 has become "softer", whatever that means. The past is the past. Quite frankly, the only BMW that I feel that still retains the "true" BMW experience is the 1 series. Mind you, I've only driven (out of the current lineup) the X5, 535, 550, 2012 650, a couple of 3 loaners and a couple of 1 loaners. Even the 3 series that is frequently raved about, I felt kind of "blah" driving it. The 1 was engaging. It's also the lightest car in the bunch, which of course is interesting.

However, I do need to ask those that dislike the F10. What else is there? The A6 that many are excited about (myself included), may have better skid pad numbers and better acceleration than a 535, but from a pants in the seat perspective, it was really no better than the F10 in my opinion. The steering was even lighter. It was a competent sedan, but what if you went back to back with a DHP equipped 535? The E class? Snooze. I had a W211 E500, and it was a great car. Competent handling with the adjustable suspension and decent rubber. After driving the W212. it was really lacking. Little road feel, light steering, and didn't even have that comfortable of a ride. Let's see, what else. The Infiniti M is the only one left. I've never driven the newest iteration, but I should. The Roundel liked it. It's always been sporty. However, I can almost guarantee that most BMW fans would NEVER own an Infiniti. The CTS-V or Lexus GS? I don't even need to go there.

So, I'm not necessarily trying to defend the F10, but we need to look at the changed car market as a whole.
superb points on the state of the market. I'm going to step down to what will probably be 5 series because of no better alternatives.

and I absolutely felt the same thing when I had a 1 series loaner earlier this year. Haven't truly enjoyed driving since then. I kept trying to get frineds to take it for a spin but no one bought my enthusiasm. It was a 128i and I so wanted to see what a 135i felt like after that.

The 3 series is as you say, "blah".
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:17 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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"So, I'm not necessarily trying to defend the F10, but we need to look at the changed car market as a whole."
I"m not sure I agree. First because bmw's traditional competitors have never managed to produce a drivers car that equals the funfer and secondly since Porsche managed to produce a seven series competitor that is more of a drivers car than the F10 at their very first attempt. So the market or the possibility to produce a drivers car has not changed much, it's the funfer that has changed. Intentionally since BMW still know how to make a modern E39 they just choose not to. I strongly suspect it is to make it a Chinese seven series, I suspect that the real 7 is to big for the congestion and roads there and sportiness is not much of a priority.

Last edited by solstice; 06-28-2011 at 10:45 PM.
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:26 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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This is a great point. What tires you have can have a huge impact on handling. What rims and tires are you running on?
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Old 06-28-2011, 10:35 PM
Stevej2001 Stevej2001 is offline
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The poster who said the F10 is a 'Regular Lexus' clearly hasn't driven a Lexus recently. I had an E60 and now a F10 and I agree the latter is less of a driver's car, but it's still great and miles ahead of any Lexus I've driven (I admit I didn't drive the IS because I'm, 'ahem', too fat). To each his or her own. The ES isn't even in the same league with the F10.

I liked driving my E60 535i very much, but not the problems therewith. I've bought, rather than leased, my F10. I have no regrets so far (7 months, 8k miles).
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