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F07 Gran Turismo (2010 - Current)
The 5 Series Gran Turismo -- now available in the USA as a 535i, 550i and 550i xDrive model.

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  #1  
Old 06-29-2011, 12:40 PM
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5GT sales and regret of BMWNA boss

http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20065736-48.html

While I'm sure there are many happy 5GT owners, I scratched my head when I first saw the 5GT. Personally I'd rather have a wagon, and thought the 5GT was mainly for baby boomers. I guess I'm not surprised with this, and Audi A7 just makes 5GT look a bit...

"BMW's 5-series Gran Turismo was meant to be a stylish alternative to minivans and crossovers when it debuted in November 2009. But sales of the tall, quirky five-door have been disappointing.
Now, BMW of North America CEO Jim O'Donnell says he wishes the company hadn't stopped selling the 5-series wagon in the United States last year. BMW had expected the 5-series GT to attract those wagon buyers, but the GT is luring owners of the more-expensive 7-series sedan instead.
"The disappointment I have is that I thought a lot of our 5-series station wagon customers would go with the GT," O'Donnell says. "In point of fact, that is not happening. We have lost those customers to the competition--mainly to Mercedes-Benz.
"The GT has attracted 7- and 5-series customers and conquests," he says, "but not the station wagon customer we had hoped."
In Florida, 10 percent of BMW 7-series owners have replaced their cars with the 5-series GT, O'Donnell says.
The GT uses the platform of the larger 7 series but starts at $57,375 for the 535i GT, while the 7 series starts at $71,525 for the 740i sedan. Prices include shipping.
When the GT was launched in the United States, BMW executives said they expected annual sales of 4,000 to 8,000 units. BMW sold 2,848 GTs in 2010 and just 720 in the first four months of 2011. Sales of the 5-series wagon peaked at 2,351 units in 2005.
The 5-series GT's styling has been controversial. Dealers say some buyers dislike the hatchback configuration and some object to its high rear-end design.
"Americans don't like hatchbacks no matter how much Europeans want us to like them," says John Mantione, general manager of Fields BMW in Winter Park, Fla. "But it's a great value--a 7-series car for the price of the 5 series."
One public dealership group has stopped ordering the GT because of slow sales. Other dealers said they sell one or two GTs a month.
"They just sit there," says Nick Toomey, general manager of Rallye BMW in Westbury, N.Y. "I don't know why it takes a long time to sell."
O'Donnell says he doesn't want to lose wagon sales to Mercedes-Benz so BMW will keep the 3-series wagon in its lineup.
"We are not giving up the 3-series wagon because if you give it up, they will go straight to the competition," he says.
As for bringing back the 5-series wagon, O'Donnell says it may be too late for this generation.
"It's in the back of my mind," he says. "When we do the next generation, maybe we should."
(Source: Automotive News)"


Read more: http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7...#ixzz1Qh9KTRYM
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  #2  
Old 06-29-2011, 07:46 PM
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Originally Posted by TMQ View Post
http://reviews.cnet.com/8301-13746_7-20065736-48.html

While I'm sure there are many happy 5GT owners, I scratched my head when I first saw the 5GT. Personally I'd rather have a wagon, and thought the 5GT was mainly for baby boomers. I guess I'm not surprised with this, and Audi A7 just makes 5GT look a bit..
"]

Have you seen any of the recent GEICO commercial's? Most notably where the dude climbs from under a rock? I ask you the same, because the comments of O'Donnell have beaten to death. And truthfully no one cares - because we love our cars and for the most part dismiss the "wack" A7 for its dismal packaging.

So now why don't you trade in your 528 for an A7? I'm sure you will be in pure bliss.
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  #3  
Old 06-29-2011, 08:23 PM
jdubbs jdubbs is offline
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This story has been posted, and reposted, and now, posted again. Whatever the intentions of this particular poster, it's little more than an open invitation for trolls to come in from other Bimmerfest forums and dump all over the GT, a car that pretty much everyone reading the F07 forum owns. Besides being insulting, it's become just plain tiresome. Do a search, read the other threads already hashing and rehashing this, and finally, when you've got it out of your system, give it a rest and move on.
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  #4  
Old 06-30-2011, 01:14 AM
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I guess I really strike a nerve here. Just saw this article and didn't realize this is a re-post.

But why so sensitive? It is an open forum, right? I don't take it personally when people complain about E60 designs.
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  #5  
Old 06-30-2011, 10:19 AM
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It isn't that we take it personally, but just that it's a waste of space to hear the same thing again and again, ad nauseum.

Most of us don't give a rat's arse whether anyone else likes the GT or not. We're individualists and that's what sets us apart from other BMW owners, including the 5 series sedan owners. If we wanted a mini 7 series, we might have chosen a 5 series sedan. We didn't. We wanted something unique. Yes, the GT is unusual. Yes, it's something you don't see everyday. No, it's not a car everyone will want. It may not have the lower roof of the Audi, but my rear seat passengers don't beat their heads on the roof entering, leaving or traveling over rough roads either. For about 25K under the price of a 750, I have all the bells and whistles, more cargo space and a car that people actually gravitate to because it is not seen enmasse in parking lots.

Not a bad vehicle to own in my opinion. As for BMWNA's opinion. Who cares? If they don't build more, we'll all have unique cars that we enjoy. When you think of it, why does Audi and every other maker try to copy BMW? Because they just can't innovate...just have to copy the real thing. Like the Russians making their own brand of Checker Taxicabs...LOL
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Old 06-30-2011, 11:21 AM
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I looked through the threads - there was only one other thread talking about the news item. sorry about the repost.

Anyhow, I did test drive this vehicle - it actually handled quite well with the right package (ZDH). I'm not denying this is a unique vehicle. The back seat space is large, seating is a bit higher, luggage room is reasonable - so it actually fits some U.S. buyers quite well, especially in Florida. (not for me though, with 2 young kids the cargo space is more critical.) The fact that it actually replaces the F11 wagon in the U.S. is why it draws fire - less cargo space, and does't look as sleek (majority's opinion). Audi A7 manages to squeeze in 24 cf while looking better than the Panamera.

In the end, BMW's niche vehicles like 5GT and X6 target a small group of buyers - maybe they've made enough money for BMW. As far as I can see, no one other than Honda's Crosstour has taken on the GT concept. A7 is a traditional hatch. And no one has taken on the X6 other than Acura's ZDX. Automakers may have copied BMW's flaming surface design (Hyundai) and butt tuck (Camry), but BMW itself is going back to the one sausage different lengths concept and is not setting any new trend.
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  #7  
Old 06-30-2011, 04:50 PM
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I test drove the Audi A7 and really wanted to love it, because it looks SOOO good. And I still have NO idea how they manage their claimed cargo capacity. Looking closely at the car, I can only assume its because the tail is much more sloped and enlongated, so unfortunately while it has more cubic feet, it doesn't seem as usable as the space in the GT.

Ultimately I could not purchase the vehicle because while it might fit a lot of cargo, it didn't fit the one thing that I absolutely cannot live without -- my head. The sloped roof, while lovely for exterior aesthetics, made it impossible to find a comfortable seating position without my head touching the roof. I'm only 6-feet tall, so I suspect I am not alone in this.

If they made that damn roofline just a couple inches taller, I would have snapped it up.
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Old 06-30-2011, 05:08 PM
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Same problem with the X6. A 4 seater with no rear headroom. Nice car for the way under 6 footer in my humble opinion. I cannot tell you how happy I was to drop of the 328 loaner today and climb back into the GT. My head was smiling, even with my ball cap on! (To cover up the whacks from getting iin and out of the loaner...ouch!)
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Old 06-30-2011, 06:01 PM
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I've been very critical of the 5GT in the past, mainly from a design standpoint which is an area that I still think BMW got wrong, but BMW does deserve some credit for trying to push boundaries and create new segments with the 5GT. BMW also deserves credit for the fact that 5GT owners (who have after all done what most of have not and spent their money on the product) seem to love their car. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and the GT is clearly polarizing, but for a small core of customers at least BMW produced something that hit the spot.
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Old 06-30-2011, 09:58 PM
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It has to be a love-hate relationship. I had a 2005 GTO. Beautiful car, fit and finish were amazing for GM (Actually it was a rebadged Holden Monaro from Australia!) and fast as any Corvette I owned. But I just couldn't hack the 12 miles per gallon around town where most of my driving was being done. Freeways are so congested so often that you have to count it as city driving. Then there was no room in the trunk, room only for two in the back and so forth. A wonderful car but with so many limitations. The GT is unusual; maybe not the most gainly of all the cars that BMW produces. But it does so many things so well, that it's hard not to love it for what it does. To us, it became our "Lay's potato chip"..we couldn't have just one.....
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  #11  
Old 07-01-2011, 08:43 AM
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those of us who own a 5GT are very enthusiastic about our cars,so much so that when all of the non owner experts dislike the car we just sit back and laugh-my fully featured 550iGT is one fantastic car-the best BMW I have owned...this is my fifth BMW within the past 8 years.
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Old 07-01-2011, 03:02 PM
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The lectures are amusing. You can't come in here and post in 'our' forum. We don't want to hear your opinion. We like our cars and that's that. If you disagree with us, we'll hold our breath and stamp our feet.

Guess what. The styling is still questionable. The sales are still disappointing. Stop being babies.
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Old 07-01-2011, 05:47 PM
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Originally Posted by todd92 View Post
The lectures are amusing. You can't come in here and post in 'our' forum. We don't want to hear your opinion. We like our cars and that's that. If you disagree with us, we'll hold our breath and stamp our feet.

Guess what. The styling is still questionable. The sales are still disappointing. Stop being babies.
I think its more disappointing to you actually. We like haters like you, so stick around as we speak to our enjoyment of the GT you might actually learn something. But before you do, get your facts straight - because as a whole on an international level the GT is meeting its sales quota - actually exceeding it. This car has not, and will not rely soley on the US market alone to succeed.

Sorry dude- you FAIL
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  #14  
Old 07-01-2011, 05:48 PM
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Originally Posted by todd92 View Post
The lectures are amusing. You can't come in here and post in 'our' forum. We don't want to hear your opinion. We like our cars and that's that. If you disagree with us, we'll hold our breath and stamp our feet.

Guess what. The styling is still questionable. The sales are still disappointing. Stop being babies.

Glad to see that you are the adult here who sets the rules and controls access to 'your' forum. Does this mean you will stop F07 owners from visiting 'our' F10 forums? I'm pretty sure some of us would have never visited 'your' mature adults-only forum if it weren't for your fellow mature F07 owners making inflammatory posts in the F10 forum.

Anyway, I've previously posted my F07 observations from when I considered purchasing one. I would have liked the option to buy an F11, but BMWNA put all of their eggs in the F07 basket. I think BMWNA should have certified two F07s and two F11s rather than four F07s, unfortunately I think BMWNA has recently realized this too.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:00 PM
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I think its more disappointing to you actually. We like haters like you, so stick around as we speak to our enjoyment of the GT you might actually learn something. But before you do, get your facts straight - because as a whole on an international level the GT is meeting its sales quota - actually exceeding it. This car has not, and will not rely soley on the US market along to succeed.

Sorry dude- you FAIL
Okay, now I'm confused. Is todd92 claimimg ownership of the F07 forum or the F10 forum? Either way, I didn't vote for him.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:47 PM
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This story has been posted, and reposted, and now, posted again. Whatever the intentions of this particular poster, it's little more than an open invitation for trolls to come in from other Bimmerfest forums and dump all over the GT, a car that pretty much everyone reading the F07 forum owns. Besides being insulting, it's become just plain tiresome. Do a search, read the other threads already hashing and rehashing this, and finally, when you've got it out of your system, give it a rest and move on.
TMQ is not a troll, he has been on here for a while. Calm down, reposts happen, there is a lot of data to go through on the site, reposting is a fact of life.

That said, the GT was a huge mistake. Maybe listening to your customers might not be such a bad idea.
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Old 07-01-2011, 06:54 PM
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Okay, now I'm confused. Is todd92 claimimg ownership of the F07 forum or the F10 forum? Either way, I didn't vote for him.
I think he's trying to insinuate that the F07 forum members have banished him from posting here

Maybe he will come back and clarify- We really don't care about his opinion, no one here has or will back out of buying a GT because of todd92's comments - but we will let him have it

Hey Todd maybe you can contact O'Donnell through BMW NA to express your dissatisfaction with the GT. While you're at it, let him know we F07 owners invite him with open arms to come here and chat.
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Old 07-02-2011, 09:12 AM
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TMQ is not a troll, he has been on here for a while. Calm down, reposts happen, there is a lot of data to go through on the site, reposting is a fact of life.

I never said that TMQ is a troll. I said that this story is a magnet for trolls. There's a difference. The larger point I was trying to make is that the story has been beaten to death, both in Bimmerfest and Bimmerpost, through multiple posts covering variations of the same story, so maybe we don't need yet another one.

Quote:
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That said, the GT was a huge mistake. Maybe listening to your customers might not be such a bad idea.
You're certainly entitled to your opinion, but I think anyone who owns a GT would disagree. My guess is that most of the people bashing the car have never seen one in person let alone ridden in or driven one.

Whatever mistakes BMW made, I think the biggest was made by BMWNA's president. Bashing your own products in the press isn't going to encourage sales. He might have taken some responsibility for low sales, by saying "we could've marketed it differently, we should've spent time educating the US public to a new class of car", etc. Instead he chose to blame the car itself, or his customers.

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Old 07-02-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by jdubbs View Post

whatever mistakes bmw made, i think the biggest was made by bmwna's president. Bashing your own products in the press isn't going to encourage sales. He might have taken some responsibility for low sales, by saying "we could've marketed it differently, we should've spent time educating the us public to a new class of car", etc. Instead he chose to blame the car itself, or his customers.
+1
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Old 07-03-2011, 09:53 PM
magnumforc magnumforc is offline
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As I posted above, I also owned a new Pontiac GTO. One of the reasons that division put itself out of business was by giving customers not what they wanted, but what Pontiac wanted to give them. When sales faltered, they blamed the lack of continued mold capacity to produce body panels and the lackluster sales as the reason to discontinue importing the car to the US. The Holden line continues in Australia and Pontiac could have continued with a variant of the Holden Commodore, including the current Commodore SSV but didn't. Thus they lost an important segment of their market to other marques. The rest is history.

The point I am making is that the GT is a segment vehicle. It appeals to a segment of the market that the other models and marques don't. I drove other models and brands before buying the GT's and none met my needs or expectations. That doen't mean the other BMW's are not great cars; just not what I want or like. And, yes, I am a rabid enthusiast when it comes to the GT. Comments welcome, but in my opinion, unless you can intelligently debate the inherent positives and negatives of the vehicle, detractors have nothing to discuss.
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Old 07-04-2011, 05:36 AM
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FWIW to the bashers on both sides of the F07 vs. F10 lovefest: We have been doing extensive test drives of both vehicles, and are ont he fence as to which one will be sitting in our garage in 2 months' time.

The F10 is arguably prettier, and has better rear visibility.

The F07 is unquestionably better appointed, and significantly more comfortable in the rear. This an important consideration as our next car will be used to tour a LOT of college campuses, with 4 Quacks on board. Quite surprisingly, it is also a more satisfying car to drive, at least at legal speeds, as the steering and handling feel more like a "traditional" BMW's. (And we are comparing it to the SP and M Sport F10's). It also seems to have fewer reported problems (tip in, pulling to right, RFT bubbles) though that may be a result of a smaller sample size.

Fuel economy and current lease costs are virtually identical for the two, so in a left-brain sense, the F07 is a much better "bargain".

As the enthusiast in the family, I prefer the F07, while Mrs. Quack (who could care less about performance) prefers the F10's styling. And whichever one winds up in our garage, we have concluded that they are both great cars, but each has its own major flaw (controversial styling vs. unsporting steering feel).

BTW as much as it is tempting to think the F11 would be "the best of both worlds", it does not offer the F07's major advantage (sumptuous and spacious rear accomodations), nor is it likely to overcome its fellow F10's shortcomings. You get more cargo space, and a higher price tag. Plus something a little more "distinctive", a benefit the F07 already possesses.
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Old 07-04-2011, 09:33 AM
magnumforc magnumforc is offline
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No defense of the GT, just some comments from personal observation: The "tip in" on the throttle has been corrected with the updated programming, at least with the "complete reprogramming" that was done on my 2011 GT last week. I dare say, looking at the 2010 and 2011 owners manuals on line (the 2011 manual was not available on line a short while back) that it's quite possible that some, if not all 2011's were programmed with the 2010 data, and some subtle changes resulted in engine management issues. Also, remember the "tip in" changes slightly from "Normal" to "Sport" but then significantly when going to "Sport+"

As for the RFT bubbles, they can occur on any vehicle, regardless of make or model, so I wouldn't attribute that to the GT or any other BMW specifically. More the choice of tire make and model. We've had Continental, Goodyear, Bridgestone and other RFT's and the worst by far were the Continentals. So far, the Goodyears on the GT's have been fine but then again, we don't have high mileage to solidify that.

When the 2011 was new I noted a slight pulling to the right when braking. After a few hundred miles when the brakes settled in, the pull disappeared and the car stops straight as an arrow. We find no pulling during driving on either vehicle, one xDrive and one RWD. I do suppose alignment has a lot to do with that, and taking a vehicle back as soon as it's noticed would be the best suggestion. I remember all our Police Interceptors had a right drift and Ford indicated that was a safety issue, so that if you took your hands off the wheel, on a completely flat road (try and find one of those!) the car would not wander into oncoming traffic. Personally I thought that was a fairy tale but who knows!

Best of luck with your choice! And college selection too!
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Old 07-05-2011, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
FWIW to the bashers on both sides of the F07 vs. F10 lovefest: We have been doing extensive test drives of both vehicles, and are ont he fence as to which one will be sitting in our garage in 2 months' time.

The F10 is arguably prettier, and has better rear visibility.

The F07 is unquestionably better appointed, and significantly more comfortable in the rear. This an important consideration as our next car will be used to tour a LOT of college campuses, with 4 Quacks on board. Quite surprisingly, it is also a more satisfying car to drive, at least at legal speeds, as the steering and handling feel more like a "traditional" BMW's. (And we are comparing it to the SP and M Sport F10's). It also seems to have fewer reported problems (tip in, pulling to right, RFT bubbles) though that may be a result of a smaller sample size.

Fuel economy and current lease costs are virtually identical for the two, so in a left-brain sense, the F07 is a much better "bargain".

As the enthusiast in the family, I prefer the F07, while Mrs. Quack (who could care less about performance) prefers the F10's styling. And whichever one winds up in our garage, we have concluded that they are both great cars, but each has its own major flaw (controversial styling vs. unsporting steering feel).

BTW as much as it is tempting to think the F11 would be "the best of both worlds", it does not offer the F07's major advantage (sumptuous and spacious rear accomodations), nor is it likely to overcome its fellow F10's shortcomings. You get more cargo space, and a higher price tag. Plus something a little more "distinctive", a benefit the F07 already possesses.
I felt the same after driving F07 and F10, although they were not identically equipped (F07 had ZDH). Are the suspension and steering components quite different?

I haven't been in a Audi A7 yet, but the larger cargo space at least on paper is notable. As a traditional hatch (sport back), there seems to be more area (length x width). I've seen cars like a Corvette fitting a lawmower in the back, and a friend's Supra, so this type of cargo space is actually quite flexible (ie one doesn't need to stack up things high).

I keep seeing one champagne color 5GT near where I work, and unfortunately that color just does not do it for the car with the large chrome strip on the back. Darker color would look better.
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  #24  
Old 07-05-2011, 01:10 PM
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quackbury quackbury is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TMQ View Post
I felt the same after driving F07 and F10, although they were not identically equipped (F07 had ZDH). Are the suspension and steering components quite different?

I haven't been in a Audi A7 yet, but the larger cargo space at least on paper is notable. As a traditional hatch (sport back), there seems to be more area (length x width). I've seen cars like a Corvette fitting a lawmower in the back, and a friend's Supra, so this type of cargo space is actually quite flexible (ie one doesn't need to stack up things high).

I keep seeing one champagne color 5GT near where I work, and unfortunately that color just does not do it for the car with the large chrome strip on the back. Darker color would look better.
I have not driven a GT with ZDH as none of the dealers up here has a demo so equipped. But I have compared the non-DHP GT to RWD and xDrive F10's, both with and without M Sport. I find the base GT steering feel preferable to any of the F10 iterations I've driven.

I found the A7 to be a huge let down. Like the girl you lusted after in high school, only to date her and find she was dumber than a rock and had pepperoni breath. There is just NO headroom in the back, even for teenagers. Maybe I could carry a Toro in the A7's trunk, but I couldn't carry my son in the rear seat. Fail.

I agree with your assessment on the GT being color sensitive. I love the car in the various blacks and Sparkling Graphite, while the Venetian Beige, AW and Titanium Silver leave me cold. If we wind up ordering an F07, it will be in Neptune Blue.
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  #25  
Old 07-05-2011, 04:45 PM
sddjd sddjd is offline
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"My guess is that most of the people bashing the car have never seen one in person let alone ridden in or driven one"

I have to say that this rings true for me. Mrs sddjd has loved the F07 since it was revealed; me not so much. It just never looked quite "right" to me. However, a couple weeks back we parked beside a brand new loaded F07 and I will be the first to admit it made a huge impression (I believe it was in graphite). Personally all the marketing materials fail to capture the presence of the car, and my fixation on a '12 550xi suddenly opened to a similarly equipped GTxi. The forthcoming M-sport options on the '12 only add to the "dilemma", but I can say after viewing the car in person I'd be more than satisfied adding either to our garage.

With regard to the original interview, the following has always bothered me somewhat:

"the GT is luring owners of the more-expensive 7-series sedan instead"

Now I'm not in the market for a 7-series, but an immediate family member has long been a BMW buyer who is currently in the market for a car in this class. What's interesting to me is that he considered a 5-series (or GT) over a 7, but price was not in any way part of the equation (other options being evaluated range from a Panamera Turbo to Quattroporte to A8). Whichever car is added to the stable, it seems to me that the belief that 7 series "defections" are primarily cash driven may be missing something....
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