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  #26  
Old 07-05-2011, 06:11 PM
caesarp caesarp is offline
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It sux to get laid off -- but 5 kids? Seriously, who can afford that on any salary? I never understand why people have so many kids? Don't they realize that each mouth adds more food costs, clothing costs, shelter costs, educational costs?
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  #27  
Old 07-05-2011, 06:27 PM
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It sux to get laid off -- but 5 kids? Seriously, who can afford that on any salary? I never understand why people have so many kids? Don't they realize that each mouth adds more food costs, clothing costs, shelter costs, educational costs?
Not only that but if the kid sits on your lap and talks to you, how can you do it to 5 kids at the same time? How can octomom do it? Not enough time. Octomom has 8 kids plus some other kids.
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  #28  
Old 07-05-2011, 06:53 PM
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California's Senator Barbara Boxer has sent a "token" letter to the president of BMW NA, protesting the labor "exchange"...a very short letter (she's so busy). I think it was "auto" signed. You have to remember that CA goes OUT OF ITS WAY to be business UNFRIENDLY; Calif looks at businesses and employers as being the ENEMY for some reason. That's the PRICE YOU PAY for being a liberal, Democratic, unfriendly business environment. Look at CA's UNEMPLOYMENT rate. BMW could have moved everything to MEXICO, or NEVADA...the're only several hours away and much more business friendly than California. I'll drive a fork lift for $12 - 15 bucks an hour at the BMW warehouse. It's twice what Burger King pays, plus I get health care bennies (worth at least $1,200/mo).
That's min. $43,200/year, not including O/T. Not bad for a high school grad, 1st year of employment. Of course, if I had applied myself a little better in school, I wouldn't be worried about being a fork lift driver/warehouse worker and losing a $25/hr job.
Screw the unions. They ruined Detroit and BMW isn't going to let them ruin them.
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  #29  
Old 07-05-2011, 07:15 PM
Sloan165 Sloan165 is offline
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@pointandgo, minimum wage in California is currently $8.00 an hour which is 25 cents less than Nevada's and so not quite twice the wage Burger King is willing to pay. Not to mention I would not let my high school son loose with a fork lift without some serious training and practice.

I still think that a very important part of any cohesive workforce that performs above expectations is simply not something that you can merely put a dollar amount on. As I said earlier "you get what you pay for" holds true here. I make somewhere in the neighborhood of what some of these folks were making at the warehouse and would certainly be more than a little miffed at someone generalizing my performance or my job's scope of work who hadn't walked a mile in my shoes so to speak.

I am not saying that BMWNA necessarily did anything wrong with changing the dynamic of the warehouse but I don't see the point of demeaning or trivializing what these folks do for a living. Just my two cents.
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  #30  
Old 07-05-2011, 07:26 PM
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@pointandgo, minimum wage in California is currently $8.00 an hour which is 25 cents less than Nevada's and so not quite twice the wage Burger King is willing to pay. Not to mention I would not let my high school son loose with a fork lift without some serious training and practice.

I still think that a very important part of any cohesive workforce that performs above expectations is simply not something that you can merely put a dollar amount on. As I said earlier "you get what you pay for" holds true here. I make somewhere in the neighborhood of what some of these folks were making at the warehouse and would certainly be more than a little miffed at someone generalizing my performance or my job's scope of work who hadn't walked a mile in my shoes so to speak.

I am not saying that BMWNA necessarily did anything wrong with changing the dynamic of the warehouse but I don't see the point of demeaning or trivializing what these folks do for a living. Just my two cents.
The unions think their doing a great job...driving jobs out of Calif. to Nevada and Mexico. What? They don't think that businesses are mobil? Union membership is down? I can't believe it!
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  #31  
Old 07-05-2011, 09:00 PM
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The unions think their doing a great job...driving jobs out of Calif. to Nevada and Mexico. What? They don't think that businesses are mobil? Union membership is down? I can't believe it!
Yeah, you're a conservative, anti-union, Republican who hates the working class. We get it.
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  #32  
Old 07-05-2011, 11:13 PM
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Labor negotiations are difficult. The union probably thought they were doing a good job, increasing the pay. However, finally they were asking too much. It's difficult. If they didn't run up wages, then some may question their usefulness. BMW probably figured that wages were too high that they couldn't negotiate downward enough successfully. Rather than fight a messy battle, BMW just got out of the warehousing business.

Though not the same, selling a house involves some strategy. Price it too high in some areas and buyers will not negotiate or even make an offer. A few may make low ball offers. In other areas of the country, people are more willing to make an offer. On the other hand, price it too low and you'll get a buyer paying a low price, not the amount that the house is worth.

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  #33  
Old 07-05-2011, 11:32 PM
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Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
I'll drive a fork lift for $12 - 15 bucks an hour at the BMW warehouse.
OK. Let's look at this from a purely business and financial point of view.


BMW are going to save around $1million a year. In exchange they are getting bad press and worse they are putting a best in class parts distribution system at risk.

In a normal economy there is a significant difference between quality, experienced blue collar labor and someone working at close to minimum wage. I spent a few hours at a package sorting center in Atlanta. Now I know why my parcels go missing. The people "working" there don't know what they are doing and don't care.


This will come back to bite BMW when people start complaining about problems with parts.

$1million may sound like a lot of money, but it is only 10 750i sedans or 24 328i coupes.

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  #34  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:41 AM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Originally Posted by pointandgo View Post
California's Senator Barbara Boxer has sent a "token" letter to the president of BMW NA, protesting the labor "exchange"...a very short letter (she's so busy). I think it was "auto" signed. You have to remember that CA goes OUT OF ITS WAY to be business UNFRIENDLY; Calif looks at businesses and employers as being the ENEMY for some reason. That's the PRICE YOU PAY for being a liberal, Democratic, unfriendly business environment. Look at CA's UNEMPLOYMENT rate. BMW could have moved everything to MEXICO, or NEVADA...the're only several hours away and much more business friendly than California. I'll drive a fork lift for $12 - 15 bucks an hour at the BMW warehouse. It's twice what Burger King pays, plus I get health care bennies (worth at least $1,200/mo).
That's min. $43,200/year, not including O/T. Not bad for a high school grad, 1st year of employment. Of course, if I had applied myself a little better in school, I wouldn't be worried about being a fork lift driver/warehouse worker and losing a $25/hr job.
Screw the unions. They ruined Detroit and BMW isn't going to let them ruin them.
So much to argue in this post.

1) The average tenure in this warehouse is over 20 years. Long tenured employees are going to make more money. As well, the cost of living in the LA area is very high. You can't pay someone who has worked there for 20 years $12.00/hour and expect them to live in a 1200 sq ft home that costs $500,000.00. $43,200.00/yr is chump change in Southern Cal.

2) The unions were part of the reason for the collapse of the US Auto Industry. The main reason was the garbage cars they produced for so long. To this day there is no American car I'd even consider to replace my 328i. That's a management decision by the Big 3.

3) Last, the union was ready to give concessions. They weren't even given a chance as BMW's business plan was to outsource this part of the business. It's going to be very hard for these workers to find work. The economy in California is pretty bad.
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  #35  
Old 07-06-2011, 01:53 PM
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Yeah, you're a conservative, anti-union, Republican who hates the working class. We get it.
Wrong on both counts; merely someone who knows what it's like trying to do business in CA. I'm surprised BMW is even staying here. Chief Executive magazine's annual survey has ranked CA dead last for seven years in a row as a desirable place to do business:
http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst...s-for-business
Other surveys mimic these results.

CA politicians still don't get it even after the last auto assembly plant in CA closed recently: the NUMMI-Gm joint venture after Toyota said that is wasn't "economically viable" to continue production. The union thought it might have had something to do with them; go figure. CA's blizzard of regulations didn't help.

A U.C. Berkeley survey (2009) of wages in the CA "Inland Empire" where BMW's warehouse is located noted median warehouse worker wages of $39.8K (full time)...and an unskilled workforce with over 22% non-high school graduates. According to BMW's wage scale (and benefits) they would have been paying $66,400 (including $1,200/mo health care) in the same labor market ($25/hr).

Many large companies have flocked to the Inland Empire and established distribution centers due to the availability of a large, non-union, unskilled labor force. Although the U.C. Berkeley report concluded that "unionization" was one of the solutions to bring up wages in the Inland Empire warehousing industry, that proposal didn't seem to work this time.
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  #36  
Old 07-06-2011, 05:32 PM
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Well, my post has had many well-thought out responses. Even Jon Shafer responded.

Overall it was crappy thing to do by BMW. They had a well-trained knowledgable work force that will be replaced by low wage outsourced grunts. I doubt they'll ever come close to what they had. But hey who cares about America's middle class?
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  #37  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:25 PM
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A typical liberal newspaper column from California. While I feel sorry for those who are losing their jobs, the one-sided story is an embarrassment to say the least.
Agree La Times is a heavily slanted lib rag. I'm sure that union was a loser in LA. California is the most unfriendly place to be in business and getting worse all the time. Good move By BMW staying ahead of the game.
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  #38  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:30 PM
Michael Schott Michael Schott is offline
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Wrong on both counts; merely someone who knows what it's like trying to do business in CA. I'm surprised BMW is even staying here. Chief Executive magazine's annual survey has ranked CA dead last for seven years in a row as a desirable place to do business:
http://chiefexecutive.net/best-worst...s-for-business
Other surveys mimic these results.

CA politicians still don't get it even after the last auto assembly plant in CA closed recently: the NUMMI-Gm joint venture after Toyota said that is wasn't "economically viable" to continue production. The union thought it might have had something to do with them; go figure. CA's blizzard of regulations didn't help.

A U.C. Berkeley survey (2009) of wages in the CA "Inland Empire" where BMW's warehouse is located noted median warehouse worker wages of $39.8K (full time)...and an unskilled workforce with over 22% non-high school graduates. According to BMW's wage scale (and benefits) they would have been paying $66,400 (including $1,200/mo health care) in the same labor market ($25/hr).

Many large companies have flocked to the Inland Empire and established distribution centers due to the availability of a large, non-union, unskilled labor force. Although the U.C. Berkeley report concluded that "unionization" was one of the solutions to bring up wages in the Inland Empire warehousing industry, that proposal didn't seem to work this time.
Once again you don't address the issue that the average tenure of the employee was 20 years which heavily contributes to the high hourly pay. What is the average tenure of the median warehouse employee in the Inland Empire? You could also add $14,400.00 to the $39.8K you cite for their benefits.
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  #39  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Captain Roundel View Post
Well, my post has had many well-thought out responses. Even Jon Shafer responded.

Overall it was crappy thing to do by BMW. They had a well-trained knowledgable work force that will be replaced by low wage outsourced grunts. I doubt they'll ever come close to what they had. But hey who cares about America's middle class?
California cares about the "middle class" a lot. According the the IRS, CA's state income tax bracket for a $37,233 wage earner would be 8%, on TOP OF a 8%+ sales tax rate for everything you buy depending on where you live, not to mention high car registration and license fees. That's a LOT of money to take out of a poor bastards pay check. If there are greedy thieves at work trying to screw the middle class, I'd look to the state. All we have to do is reduce the tax rate for low wage earners and reduce or eliminate sales taxes on essentials such as food, clothing (such as Massachusetts). Hey, it's a Democrat dominated government. Aren't they supposed to be advocates for the needy?
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  #40  
Old 07-06-2011, 06:44 PM
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Once again you don't address the issue that the average tenure of the employee was 20 years which heavily contributes to the high hourly pay. What is the average tenure of the median warehouse employee in the Inland Empire? You could also add $14,400.00 to the $39.8K you cite for their benefits.
I also didn't include CA's "workman's compensation" insurance costs. NO, the 39.8K does not include health benefits...as those are generally NOT provided, depending on the company. Yes, Toyota's huge parts distribution center, just down the street from BMW would probably provide health insurance to a certain class of workers. As the U.C. Berkeley report pointed out, many warehouse operations in the Inland Empire (and I am very familiar with this), have a very high percentage of "temporary workers" from temp agencies. This practice (unfortunately) has driven down warehouse worker wages in the area. Temp labor operations is a huge business in the Inland Empire (forklift drivers, general warehouse workers).
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  #41  
Old 07-06-2011, 07:11 PM
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@pointandgo didn't Tesla make arrangements for that Nummi plant?
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  #42  
Old 07-06-2011, 07:12 PM
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so much to argue in this post.

1) the average tenure in this warehouse is over 20 years. Long tenured employees are going to make more money. As well, the cost of living in the la area is very high. You can't pay someone who has worked there for 20 years $12.00/hour and expect them to live in a 1200 sq ft home that costs $500,000.00. $43,200.00/yr is chump change in southern cal.

2) the unions were part of the reason for the collapse of the us auto industry. The main reason was the garbage cars they produced for so long. To this day there is no american car i'd even consider to replace my 328i. That's a management decision by the big 3.

3) last, the union was ready to give concessions. They weren't even given a chance as bmw's business plan was to outsource this part of the business. It's going to be very hard for these workers to find work. The economy in california is pretty bad.
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  #43  
Old 07-06-2011, 07:34 PM
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@pointandgo didn't Tesla make arrangements for that Nummi plant?
Tesla reopens Fremont's former Nummi plant
FREMONT
October 28, 2010|By Will Kane, Chronicle Staff Writer


With one wave of his hand, Elon Musk, the CEO of electric-car startup Tesla, breathed new life into the former Nummi auto manufacturing plant in Fremont, shuttered since General Motors and Toyota walked away from the factory in the last year.

"Well, we have a very large sign and we're going to raise the curtain now," he told a crowd of reporters, politicians and employees Wednesday. "This may take a while."

As he gestured toward the factory behind him, workers struggled to remove several large tarps that covered a huge Tesla sign on the side of the building.

That sign, now visible from nearby Interstate 880, is a sign of what is to come, said Sen. Dianne Feinstein, D-Calif.

"This factory marks the dawning of a new day for manufacturing in Fremont and the East Bay," she said. "This is proof of what's possible in California," she added.

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  #44  
Old 07-06-2011, 09:39 PM
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Yes Tesla will sell a few to the very wealthy. Just one problem, the amount of electricity involved is nothing to ignore. I install charging units for these cars. 90 amp circut and all night to charge. My whole ranch runs on 90amp breakers.its a massive appliance to have plugged in .i would guess the elect bill to increase by $300 mth to people already paying 1200-1500 a mth in utilitys.
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  #45  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:21 PM
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We are getting off topic here, but electric power demand is high during the day and very low late at night.

Power to e-car customers should be sold on a 2 or 3- rate tarrif. This can be done and it isn't that hard.

Smart meters and variable rates have been available here in the UK for years. The simplest systems use 2 traditional meters conected to a timer...


Yes, you do increase your electric bill. Even with current CA single rate rates, you pay far less in electrcity than you would for gasoline.

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  #46  
Old 07-06-2011, 10:29 PM
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all but 3 of the 71 workers will be fired. Something which would never occur if the shop resided in Germany.

BMW moved X3 production from Austria to the U.S. BMW has been making cars in South Africa for a long time. BMW also produces in the former East Germany, which has lower wages.

Continental, a German tire company, makes lots of tires in Brazil and Mexico. Many sizes of the popular ExtremeContact DW and DWS are made in Brazil, Mexico, and the U.S., not Germany.
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  #47  
Old 07-06-2011, 11:10 PM
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BMW moved X3 production from Austria to the U.S. BMW has been making cars in South Africa for a long time. BMW also produces in the former East Germany, which has lower wages.

Continental, a German tire company, makes lots of tires in Brazil and Mexico. Many sizes of the popular ExtremeContact DW and DWS are made in Brazil, Mexico, and the U.S., not Germany.
This is a result of The teamsters union becoming unsubstainable. The move to de-unionize was the correct one.I have worked a few years for the teamsters a poorly managed outfit. 40 years of union waste for carmakers and a changing low skilled immigrant labor force,car makers could not expect to maintain productivity.What happens in Califorina replicates across the country.
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  #48  
Old 07-07-2011, 11:50 AM
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This is a result of The teamsters union becoming unsubstainable. The move to de-unionize was the correct one.I have worked a few years for the teamsters a poorly managed outfit. 40 years of union waste for carmakers and a changing low skilled immigrant labor force,car makers could not expect to maintain productivity.What happens in Califorina replicates across the country.
Luckily, there are already 22 right to work states that have been ahead of California for some time.
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  #49  
Old 07-07-2011, 02:05 PM
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BMW should be fine. It's easier to punish a supplier/vendor than discipline an emplyee/union. Their suppliers to GSP run like clockwork - unions or not.

A pity for those laid off. As usual, life throws you aver curve balls every now and then. I hope I'm not naive.
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Old 07-07-2011, 06:18 PM
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Join Date: Jan 2011
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Mein Auto: 2011 E92 M3
Quote:
Originally Posted by dalekressin View Post
It is understandable why the plant is closing.
Our perspectives would differ if the plant closing directly affected us.
It's only about 'me' after all, right?
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2011 E92 M3
2011 128i
2007 E92 335i (SOLD)
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