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E36/7 Z3 (1996-2002)
E36/7 Z3 Roadster, Z3 coupe, Z3 M Roadster and Z3 M Coupe talk with our gurus here.

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  #51  
Old 03-29-2004, 04:32 PM
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More info from Ireland:

"Our mount is actually about 1/8" taller. The top is about 3" diameter where it rests against the chassis. It is similar to our E30 mount pictured on the website.

Jeff Ireland"

Interesting. I will be interested to hear when someone has these installed.

BTW when I had the car up on the lift, I didn't see any evidence of any damage. Nor in the trunk.

But looking at the diff mount, I am not sure how any torque stresses are put into the frame, I has been thinking the mount was fore and aft, not side to side. Torque should rock the subframe and diff side to side, twisting the mount.

The damage areas seem to be from fore and aft forces.
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  #52  
Old 03-29-2004, 05:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
More info from Ireland:

"Our mount is actually about 1/8" taller. The top is about 3" diameter where it rests against the chassis. It is similar to our E30 mount pictured on the website.

Jeff Ireland"

Interesting. I will be interested to hear when someone has these installed.

BTW when I had the car up on the lift, I didn't see any evidence of any damage. Nor in the trunk.

But looking at the diff mount, I am not sure how any torque stresses are put into the frame, I has been thinking the mount was fore and aft, not side to side. Torque should rock the subframe and diff side to side, twisting the mount.
torque does rock the subframe, and unfortunately it seems it doesn't come anywhere near stopping until there's a big load on the differential mount.

Quote:

The damage areas seem to be from fore and aft forces.
Not sure why you think that's the case... all the pictures I've seen indicate peeling forces on several spot welds and tension forces tearing the sheet metal, all from forces in the same plane as the differential cover.
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  #53  
Old 03-30-2004, 05:17 AM
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If the sub frame rocks side to side, the diff mount should just twist around the bolt.

But if the subframe twists (when viewed from above) then the damage we are seeing can occur to the mount and possibly the trunk floor.

The other motion that looks like it could cause the trouble is if the whole subframe shifts forwards and backwards.

Just trying to see what motion needs to be stopped. Of course if we can stop the subframe motion, then the subframe mounts become a weak point, like the E36 M3s.
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  #54  
Old 03-30-2004, 11:54 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
If the sub frame rocks side to side, the diff mount should just twist around the bolt.

But if the subframe twists (when viewed from above) then the damage we are seeing can occur to the mount and possibly the trunk floor.

The other motion that looks like it could cause the trouble is if the whole subframe shifts forwards and backwards.

Just trying to see what motion needs to be stopped. Of course if we can stop the subframe motion, then the subframe mounts become a weak point, like the E36 M3s.
The overly-simplified picture I have in my head goes something like this...

Torque turns the subframe until the passenger side of the subframe hits the top of its range. The differential mount is on the side of the diff cover, not the center of the rotational force (which would be concentric with the driveshaft). Hence the load on the differential mount is downward, and a bit to the passenger side (and a little more to the passenger side once things start coming apart and the differential can move further). It seems that not much of the load is being taken by the driver's side subframe mount; I suspect it's not at its limit until the car looks like Yanni's. Picture a wheel where you fix one side and turn the wheel at the axle... the result is tangential force on the side of the wheel opposite your fixed point. That's where our diff cover mount is located. If the differential mount was in the center of the differential cover (concentric with the driveshaft), it would have no damaging force delivered to it, it would just rotate as you described and all the load would be on the subframe mounts.

Maybe I've got it all wrong. I haven't had the carr off the ground yet this season.

Of course, it's entirely possible that the subframe is twisting too much. It'd be interesting to put calipers on Yanni's and thoroughly examine all of the bushings since his trunk pan has considerable displacement.
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  #55  
Old 04-20-2004, 10:32 PM
Deuce Deuce is offline
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excuse me gentlemen...

is this problem characteristic of roadsters only or have coupes been infected as well...?
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  #56  
Old 04-20-2004, 10:35 PM
Deuce Deuce is offline
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why won't my picture show up? what am i doing wrong?
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  #57  
Old 04-21-2004, 04:15 AM
songziou songziou is offline
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  #58  
Old 04-21-2004, 05:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deuce
is this problem characteristic of roadsters only or have coupes been infected as well...?
Sorry, Coupes too. Perhaps moreso (or Coupe owners are quicker to find it).
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  #59  
Old 04-28-2004, 06:31 AM
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Got the word yesterday (4/27/2004) that BMWNA approved the trunk floor replacement on both cars.

Parts have been ordered, when they come in I'll grab some pictures before the work starts.

If they don't bar the doors, I'll take more pictures as the work progresses.

Now that the weather is getting nice again, what better time to take the car(s) off the road...?

Black car is first in line!
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  #60  
Old 04-28-2004, 01:41 PM
Mike S Mike S is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dwm
all the pictures I've seen indicate peeling forces on several spot welds and tension forces tearing the sheet metal, all from forces in the same plane as the differential cover.
And also in the same plane as the rear sway bar mounts.

Mike
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  #61  
Old 04-28-2004, 06:57 PM
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Randy, I got E36 diff mount pictures, but have to get them out of hte camera, maybe tomorrow, but I have some work to do to get ready for two autocrosses this weekend.
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  #62  
Old 04-28-2004, 07:41 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Randy, I got E36 diff mount pictures, but have to get them out of hte camera, maybe tomorrow, but I have some work to do to get ready for two autocrosses this weekend.
Okay, whenever you can get to it will be fine (it's not as though I'm going to get the "two ear" thing done at the dealership).
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  #63  
Old 04-28-2004, 07:55 PM
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Quote:
get ready for two autocrosses this weekend.
I guess I'll see you at Aberdeen on Sunday (pardon the slight thread-jack)
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  #64  
Old 04-28-2004, 09:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfhearse
I guess I'll see you at Aberdeen on Sunday (pardon the slight thread-jack)
Yeah, sure! Rub it in

I missed our club's 1st event this past Sunday. Looks like I'll miss the rest of them too...

In the meantime (you know, while the BMWs are in ICU) I have the Healey to put together and I just bought a vintage McCulloch go kart that needs to be restored.

But hey, have fun and good luck!
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1957 Austin-Healey 100/6 Wine Red
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1995///M3 Coupe Dakar Yellow Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
1999///M Rdstr Cosmos Black Eurosport Twinscrew S/C
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  #65  
Old 04-28-2004, 10:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Let's see in a few years.

Remember BMW has a histroy of the multi link suspensions ripping the body/subframe also.

Yep. E36 had this problem, and its looking like the e46 platform has it too. So, the Z4 is not immune. I do wonder why this doesn't seem to happen with any other make?
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  #66  
Old 04-29-2004, 05:00 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by elfhearse
I guess I'll see you at Aberdeen on Sunday (pardon the slight thread-jack)
Yeah, look for the E36 LTW.

Great deal, the lot is about 2 miles from my house.
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  #67  
Old 04-29-2004, 05:01 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
Yeah, sure! Rub it in

I missed our club's 1st event this past Sunday. Looks like I'll miss the rest of them too...

In the meantime (you know, while the BMWs are in ICU) I have the Healey to put together and I just bought a vintage McCulloch go kart that needs to be restored.

But hey, have fun and good luck!
Sorry.

I just heard that Philly SCCA runs at RIpken about 2 miles from my house. SO I signed up for the event this Sunday.

Then I found out NCC has a BMW CCA event on Sat, and had slots, so I signed up for that one.

Then the Evolution school in two weeks.
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  #68  
Old 04-29-2004, 05:45 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinecone
Then the Evolution school in two weeks.
Hmmm.

Might be your turn this year on the upper parking lot
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  #69  
Old 04-29-2004, 04:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Randy Forbes
Hmmm.

Might be your turn this year on the upper parking lot
Can I bring my own tires?

If they do the same thing as last year, I want a cone.

I need to take pics, but in the garge waiting for time is:

1 set of Bilstein Sport Shocks
1 set of H&R Sport Spring
1 set of Ground Control RSMS
1 set of RD Sway bars
1 set of RTRS rear subframe bushings

Did I forget anything?

Funny thing about the springs and shocks. They are the it sold by Turner. They were originally bought bey soeone in Redmond, WA. Never installed. They got sold to a guy in SF, CA area. Again, never installed, and sold to me.

And I was planning on buying this setup from Turner, and I did, in a sort of round about way.
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  #70  
Old 06-09-2004, 10:36 AM
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  #71  
Old 06-09-2004, 04:10 PM
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As of last Friday...

They had only gotten the area exposed and ready to be worked on. Hard to believe, but I've been too busy to visit them so far this week (even though the gray car went in on a stretcher a couple of days ago, the bodyshop was closed by the time we got over there to pick it up).

Last word I got on the black car was that they were going to drop the subframe for me so I could go in and install the Ireland bushings. The tech doing the work said that he had a couple ideas too and would run them by me when he got further along. He's very receptive to making the car better to eliminate the chance of the problem returning (we'll know for sure in another five years).

So far, everyone at the dealer says I should market it...
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  #72  
Old 06-12-2004, 09:40 PM
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Hi all! I've been lurking on this forum for a while now and have been following this thread as well because I am in pre-purchase mode and am trying to understand what issues might be out there before I by an MCoupe.

And I have to say that this whole issue is starting to scare me!

Would it be unreasonable as a buyer to ask to have this area of the car thoroughly inspected before the purchase?

Am I correct that this problem has affected all years of the MCoupe? (I'm still totally waffling on the S52 vs. S54 and am on the lookout for reasons for or against one or the other.)

My plan is to use this car as a (reliable!) daily driver on days when the lack of air conditioning in my '73 2002tii becomes intolerable and for my next level car at the track until a dedicated race car makes sense.

So, someone, please, provide me with some words of assurance!

Thanks!
Sharon
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  #73  
Old 06-12-2004, 09:47 PM
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All coupes and roadsters, Z3 and M, are suspect and should be inspected -- especially if you are buying a used one. All years, all engines. You or a mechanic should thoroughly inspect the trunk, welds, and the differential mount for cracks and failed welds. Anything is fixable, but do not buy a car without a very good look.
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  #74  
Old 06-13-2004, 06:54 AM
Blacksport350 Blacksport350 is offline
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As JonM posted...all E36/7&8s are prone the the problem and if it is not there today, it may be there tomorrow.

However, I would not hesitate to buy the car again and in fact bought my '02 Roadster knowing that this problem existed. There is also the exploding S54 engine but I just view that as a free 6year/100K extended warranty!

Buy one and enjoy it!



Quote:
Originally Posted by SharonG
Hi all! I've been lurking on this forum for a while now and have been following this thread as well because I am in pre-purchase mode and am trying to understand what issues might be out there before I by an MCoupe.

And I have to say that this whole issue is starting to scare me!

Would it be unreasonable as a buyer to ask to have this area of the car thoroughly inspected before the purchase?

Am I correct that this problem has affected all years of the MCoupe? (I'm still totally waffling on the S52 vs. S54 and am on the lookout for reasons for or against one or the other.)

My plan is to use this car as a (reliable!) daily driver on days when the lack of air conditioning in my '73 2002tii becomes intolerable and for my next level car at the track until a dedicated race car makes sense.

So, someone, please, provide me with some words of assurance!

Thanks!
Sharon
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