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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #276  
Old 08-16-2011, 06:30 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
better check the steering feedback/feel
After driving both the A6 and 5 series I reckon it's nitpicking as to which has the least feel, will be interesting to see if the E-class is any better.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
The inside of the A6 is very nice, as is the engine and drivetrain. But the exterior? Uninspired doesn't begin to describe it. It's like an overgrown jelly bean with LED headlights and/or running lights. With those things now being found on all manner of automotive crap from Chryslers to Buicks one has to wonder how long it'll be before they are the next automotive equivalent of the Nehru jacket.

Choose wisely my friend.
It's styling is unadventurous but it's very clean cut and I actually like it. Both the 5 and E-class have elements which are better, the rear of the 5 and the nose of the E-class but overall I think the A6 holds it's own. The 5 is a great car and is only second on my list because of the newness of the A6 which I reckon will hold residuals better to begin with and of course the S/Tronic which is a master stoke in this segiment as all the others are automatic.

I'm warming to the E-class the more I see it, though the interior isn't as stylist as the others (shame the CLS interior wasn't chosen) but it's has real presence on the road, more so than the other two. I just wonder will I end up with a three pointed star on the driveway for a first.
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  #277  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
.....
I'm warming to the E-class the more I see it, though the interior isn't as stylist as the others (shame the CLS interior wasn't chosen) but it's has real presence on the road, more so than the other two. I just wonder will I end up with a three pointed star on the driveway for a first.
....
Good luck on your shopping, I was on your boat before, choosing between an E and the F10.
Most importantly, don't let any forum/brand users behavior effect your decision on picking which car you like the most. It is yours to keep.
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  #278  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:55 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
The inside of the A6 is very nice, as is the engine and drivetrain. But the exterior? Uninspired doesn't begin to describe it. It's like an overgrown jelly bean with LED headlights and/or running lights. With those things now being found on all manner of automotive crap from Chryslers to Buicks one has to wonder how long it'll be before they are the next automotive equivalent of the Nehru jacket.

Choose wisely my friend.
I seem to remember a forum member here on the 'Fest who chose the A6 and wrote a detailed post explaining why he'd decided to get one in preference to the F10. Once the penny dropped on the numbers, he changed his tune, but I seem to recall that prior to the dawning realization that the F10 saved a few bucks he was pretty sold on the A6 and felt that the A6 styling was "classic and classy".

You might want to search for that thread, I think the member's name was "PsychDoc1"
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  #279  
Old 08-16-2011, 08:21 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
I seem to remember a forum member here on the 'Fest who chose the A6 and wrote a detailed post explaining why he'd decided to get one in preference to the F10. Once the penny dropped on the numbers, he changed his tune, but I seem to recall that prior to the dawning realization that the F10 saved a few bucks he was pretty sold on the A6 and felt that the A6 styling was "classic and classy".

You might want to search for that thread, I think the member's name was "PsychDoc1"
classic Bimmerfest - Shapeshifting Reality -

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  #280  
Old 08-16-2011, 08:35 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
I seem to remember a forum member here on the 'Fest who chose the A6 and wrote a detailed post explaining why he'd decided to get one in preference to the F10. Once the penny dropped on the numbers, he changed his tune, but I seem to recall that prior to the dawning realization that the F10 saved a few bucks he was pretty sold on the A6 and felt that the A6 styling was "classic and classy".

You might want to search for that thread, I think the member's name was "PsychDoc1"
Did he not correct you once before but you still persist in making the same point? http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=156

And your many pro VAG/Audi posts in the 2 threads http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...253&highlight= http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...070&highlight=

I presume he's the ultimate car reviewer for you, and you are the ultimate VAG fanboy
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  #281  
Old 08-16-2011, 08:54 AM
Sophisto Sophisto is online now
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Yes and would he only been chosing for money he would have chosen the Passat instead of the A6. And thus having had almost the same car for a smaller budget.
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  #282  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:07 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by bm323 View Post
Did he not correct you once before but you still persist in making the same point? http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...&postcount=156
The evidence is rather incriminating, I'm afraid.

The first post in his thread, "Change of heart..." does seem to focus on the Benjamins.

Res ipsa loquitur...

"...I really am put off by the fact that I'd be paying almost MSRP for the A6. I'm extremely annoyed that Audi puts out a memo that the website configurator should be "up and running" for the A6 by June 17th and, as of this moment on June 21st there's still no sign of it. I find that the website in general is poorly laid out, doesn't allow one to easily see colors, options, etc. I'm not happy (at all) with the fact that the dealers seem to have no idea whatsoever what's going on with the car, how it's going to be optioned, etc. They aren't even sure what internal wood trims are going to be available. In general I get a feeling of utter disorganization and anarchy over at Audi. Doesn't fill me with confidence about anything pertaining to Audi. I fear what the service experience would be like if this is an indication of how they "put their best foot forward" in trying to sell the car. Add to this the fact that the BMW 535xi can be obtained for $6000 under MSRP and comes with four years free maintenance and you have a pretty compelling argument that it is the value proposition here. Never thought I'd talk about a BMW as a "value proposition" but it looks like it is. The salesperson at Audi is virtually impossible to get hold of and doesn't return phone calls while the BMW sales people maintain contact and bend over backwards to please.

In short, I'm getting really turned off by a number of factors that relate to the A6 and I'm strongly considering the 535xi again. While the F10 has its issues I've never heard anyone complain that the dealers/service departments were anything less than professional and thorough. Often this is something that can be seen in other aspects of the new car purchasing experience. Audi has what appears to be a very nice product but their attention to detail is horrid in terms of how they're rolling this product out. So much so that I'm getting more and more pissed. "
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  #283  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:45 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The evidence is rather incriminating, I'm afraid.

The first post in his thread, "Change of heart..." does seem to focus on the Benjamins.

Res ipsa loquitur...

"...I really am put off by the fact that I'd be paying almost MSRP for the A6. I'm extremely annoyed that Audi puts out a memo that the website configurator should be "up and running" for the A6 by June 17th and, as of this moment on June 21st there's still no sign of it. I find that the website in general is poorly laid out, doesn't allow one to easily see colors, options, etc. I'm not happy (at all) with the fact that the dealers seem to have no idea whatsoever what's going on with the car, how it's going to be optioned, etc. They aren't even sure what internal wood trims are going to be available. In general I get a feeling of utter disorganization and anarchy over at Audi. Doesn't fill me with confidence about anything pertaining to Audi. I fear what the service experience would be like if this is an indication of how they "put their best foot forward" in trying to sell the car. Add to this the fact that the BMW 535xi can be obtained for $6000 under MSRP and comes with four years free maintenance and you have a pretty compelling argument that it is the value proposition here. Never thought I'd talk about a BMW as a "value proposition" but it looks like it is. The salesperson at Audi is virtually impossible to get hold of and doesn't return phone calls while the BMW sales people maintain contact and bend over backwards to please.

In short, I'm getting really turned off by a number of factors that relate to the A6 and I'm strongly considering the 535xi again. While the F10 has its issues I've never heard anyone complain that the dealers/service departments were anything less than professional and thorough. Often this is something that can be seen in other aspects of the new car purchasing experience. Audi has what appears to be a very nice product but their attention to detail is horrid in terms of how they're rolling this product out. So much so that I'm getting more and more pissed. "
Got to totally agree with you about Audi and their lack of organization. It is pretty unbelievable how incompetent AofA is when it comes to the website, dealership experience, and new car launches. Not to mention that you only have about 6 months to buy a car otherwise they run out of vehicles to sell for the calender year buy April-May. The product is not the problem but AofA is the main factor not to buy an Audi.
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  #284  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:49 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The evidence is rather incriminating, I'm afraid.

The first post in his thread, "Change of heart..." does seem to focus on the Benjamins.

Res ipsa loquitur...

"...I really am put off by the fact that I'd be paying almost MSRP for the A6. I'm extremely annoyed that Audi puts out a memo that the website configurator should be "up and running" for the A6 by June 17th and, as of this moment on June 21st there's still no sign of it. I find that the website in general is poorly laid out, doesn't allow one to easily see colors, options, etc. I'm not happy (at all) with the fact that the dealers seem to have no idea whatsoever what's going on with the car, how it's going to be optioned, etc. They aren't even sure what internal wood trims are going to be available. In general I get a feeling of utter disorganization and anarchy over at Audi. Doesn't fill me with confidence about anything pertaining to Audi. I fear what the service experience would be like if this is an indication of how they "put their best foot forward" in trying to sell the car. Add to this the fact that the BMW 535xi can be obtained for $6000 under MSRP and comes with four years free maintenance and you have a pretty compelling argument that it is the value proposition here. Never thought I'd talk about a BMW as a "value proposition" but it looks like it is. The salesperson at Audi is virtually impossible to get hold of and doesn't return phone calls while the BMW sales people maintain contact and bend over backwards to please.

In short, I'm getting really turned off by a number of factors that relate to the A6 and I'm strongly considering the 535xi again. While the F10 has its issues I've never heard anyone complain that the dealers/service departments were anything less than professional and thorough. Often this is something that can be seen in other aspects of the new car purchasing experience. Audi has what appears to be a very nice product but their attention to detail is horrid in terms of how they're rolling this product out. So much so that I'm getting more and more pissed. "
Look up the word "gestalt."

As in "all of the above."
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  #285  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:55 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
Got to totally agree with you about Audi and their lack of organization. It is pretty unbelievable how incompetent AofA is when it comes to the website, dealership experience, and new car launches. Not to mention that you only have about 6 months to buy a car otherwise they run out of vehicles to sell for the calender year buy April-May. The product is not the problem but AofA is the main factor not to buy an Audi.
In fairness, they weren't my points, they were PsychDoc1's and the quote is from his thread explaining why he had his change of heart. For what it's worth, I happen to agree that Audi's weak link here in the US is its dealeships, BMW generally does a much better job in this regard. That said, many of the issues raised in the post were issues mainly as the car was literally just being launched in the US when he was looking - and more often than not, you're going to see some teething issues when any product line is being transitioned. These product launch teething issues aren't unique to Audi, and I suspect that many of the ones PsychDoc1 experienced at that time will have been ironed out to one degree or another by now.
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  #286  
Old 08-16-2011, 10:36 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
The evidence is rather incriminating, I'm afraid.

The first post in his thread, "Change of heart..." does seem to focus on the Benjamins.

Res ipsa loquitur...

"...I really am put off by the fact that I'd be paying almost MSRP for the A6. I'm extremely annoyed that Audi puts out a memo that the website configurator should be "up and running" for the A6 by June 17th and, as of this moment on June 21st there's still no sign of it. I find that the website in general is poorly laid out, doesn't allow one to easily see colors, options, etc. I'm not happy (at all) with the fact that the dealers seem to have no idea whatsoever what's going on with the car, how it's going to be optioned, etc. They aren't even sure what internal wood trims are going to be available. In general I get a feeling of utter disorganization and anarchy over at Audi. Doesn't fill me with confidence about anything pertaining to Audi. I fear what the service experience would be like if this is an indication of how they "put their best foot forward" in trying to sell the car. Add to this the fact that the BMW 535xi can be obtained for $6000 under MSRP and comes with four years free maintenance and you have a pretty compelling argument that it is the value proposition here. Never thought I'd talk about a BMW as a "value proposition" but it looks like it is. The salesperson at Audi is virtually impossible to get hold of and doesn't return phone calls while the BMW sales people maintain contact and bend over backwards to please.

In short, I'm getting really turned off by a number of factors that relate to the A6 and I'm strongly considering the 535xi again. While the F10 has its issues I've never heard anyone complain that the dealers/service departments were anything less than professional and thorough. Often this is something that can be seen in other aspects of the new car purchasing experience. Audi has what appears to be a very nice product but their attention to detail is horrid in terms of how they're rolling this product out. So much so that I'm getting more and more pissed. "
+1 - same experience over at the Panamera store - "Ersatz Junkers " -
Yes - I appreciate Porsches, but the BS at my local Porsche store gets deep at times - my local Porsche "Junkers" may not admit it, but There Are Substitutes. I drive one - BMW. Indeed, when I think about my Porsche ownership experience v. my experience with BMW - I buy BMW.
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  #287  
Old 08-16-2011, 11:52 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
In fairness, they weren't my points, they were PsychDoc1's and the quote is from his thread explaining why he had his change of heart. For what it's worth, I happen to agree that Audi's weak link here in the US is its dealeships, BMW generally does a much better job in this regard. That said, many of the issues raised in the post were issues mainly as the car was literally just being launched in the US when he was looking - and more often than not, you're going to see some teething issues when any product line is being transitioned. These product launch teething issues aren't unique to Audi, and I suspect that many of the ones PsychDoc1 experienced at that time will have been ironed out to one degree or another by now.
Audi needs to learn from MB on training the sales staff and how to run a dealership. Most of the dealerships in Toronto are owned by MB corporate. While not perfect they are way better than Audi. Even with new car launches the sales staff how no teething problems like Audi.
BMW would be second behind MB but still not close to MB.
Porsche on the other hand in Toronto is pretty decent.
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  #288  
Old 08-16-2011, 07:33 PM
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K-A K-A is offline
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After driving both the A6 and 5 series I reckon it's nitpicking as to which has the least feel, will be interesting to see if the E-class is any better.



It's styling is unadventurous but it's very clean cut and I actually like it. Both the 5 and E-class have elements which are better, the rear of the 5 and the nose of the E-class but overall I think the A6 holds it's own. The 5 is a great car and is only second on my list because of the newness of the A6 which I reckon will hold residuals better to begin with and of course the S/Tronic which is a master stoke in this segiment as all the others are automatic.

I'm warming to the E-class the more I see it, though the interior isn't as stylist as the others (shame the CLS interior wasn't chosen) but it's has real presence on the road, more so than the other two. I just wonder will I end up with a three pointed star on the driveway for a first.
I agree about the road presence, and IMO the E-Class is the only of the "Big 3" that really has such a commanding road presence. These cars are all (at least the E and 5) very prevalent cars, so they take different approaches on how to maintain interest: Commanding road presence (E-Class), and elegant understatedness (5-Series).

To me, with a nice options list, and a few little mod-tweaks/cleanups to noticeably spice up the appearance some, the W212 is a fun car to always see, and generates interest from people/friends/etc.

I will add that I would wait for the 2012 E's to drop in October. They are getting some big improvements over the current ones: An all new apparently impeccably smooth V6 with 306 HP and better MPG than the current 268 HP non D/I engine (that I have in my car, and think is a great solid motor on its own, but not competitive), and a new TT 4.6L V8 with over 400HP and better MPG than the N/A motor it replaces.

Also, they come with some drivetrain upgrades (new/modified version of the 7G Tronic transmission, lighter/more efficient bits here or there, etc.) and some other bits here and there.
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Last edited by K-A; 08-16-2011 at 07:37 PM.
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  #289  
Old 08-16-2011, 09:32 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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I agree about the road presence, and IMO the E-Class is the only of the "Big 3" that really has such a commanding road presence. These cars are all (at least the E and 5) very prevalent cars, so they take different approaches on how to maintain interest: Commanding road presence (E-Class), and elegant understatedness (5-Series).
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  #290  
Old 08-17-2011, 12:27 AM
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I read your comments about the 5 GT and its "road presence" (which I agree with, btw, although in a very different way ).

I stand by my position.
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  #291  
Old 08-17-2011, 02:27 AM
Brett0429 Brett0429 is offline
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I think I'm going to go with 550xi with dinan and see what happens the cls is going to be 500 more on a lease I just hope I like the drive of the BMW compared to my past cars
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  #292  
Old 08-17-2011, 03:55 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Good luck on your shopping, I was on your boat before, choosing between an E and the F10.
Most importantly, don't let any forum/brand users behavior effect your decision on picking which car you like the most. It is yours to keep.
I'm my own man and no one, not here or anywhere will sway my decision on my car, I can certainly appreciate their inputs and opinions but in the end I'm the one living with it for how ever long.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
I seem to remember a forum member here on the 'Fest who chose the A6 and wrote a detailed post explaining why he'd decided to get one in preference to the F10. Once the penny dropped on the numbers, he changed his tune, but I seem to recall that prior to the dawning realization that the F10 saved a few bucks he was pretty sold on the A6 and felt that the A6 styling was "classic and classy".

You might want to search for that thread, I think the member's name was "PsychDoc1"
Let me get this straight, you are saying that 'PsychDoc1' was originally getting an A6 and singing it's praises to the choir but had a last minute rethink and switched to the 5 series.

I can easily understand that because I am in the very same boat, the difference being that here BMW don't undercut the competition as they do in America so my decision is solely on which car I rate best instead of which car I can yet for the least. Kind of surprised that he made such a U-turn regards the looks of the A6 because it now looks like he hates the design. Luckily I liked it at the time the pictures were first released and I haven't changed for that opinion, much the same with the 5 series which I first saw at a VIP customer launch in the dealer's showroom and I continue to like every time I see one on the road, though I quite often mistake it for a 7 series. lol

It's actually one of the appealing things about the E-class, where as the 5 series looks like every other BMW coming towards you with those angle eyes and the A6 similarly so, though to a slightly lesser extent due to the differing shape of the LEDs but with the E-class it's unmistakeable because it's styling is different to the rest of the range, it's unmistakeably a Merc, just not any old Merc.
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  #293  
Old 08-17-2011, 05:16 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is offline
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I can easily understand that because I am in the very same boat, the difference being that here BMW don't undercut the competition as they do in America so my decision is solely on which car I rate best instead of which car I can yet for the least.
The reason(s) for my decision are pretty well documented in the history feature of this forum and do not relate exclusively (or even largely) to the 'bang for buck' factor. I won't bother to recap the journey from A6 to F10 here. You use the pound sterling there, right? I've always heard that car prices are significantly higher in europe than the U.S. What is the MSRP on a 535xi in Northern Ireland? Here in the states the MSRP is $52,400 (31,747).
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  #294  
Old 08-17-2011, 05:57 AM
mujjuman mujjuman is offline
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  #295  
Old 08-17-2011, 06:00 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
The reason(s) for my decision are pretty well documented in the history feature of this forum and do not relate exclusively (or even largely) to the 'bang for buck' factor. I won't bother to recap the journey from A6 to F10 here. You use the pound sterling there, right? I've always heard that car prices are significantly higher in europe than the U.S. What is the MSRP on a 535xi in Northern Ireland? Here in the states the MSRP is $52,400 (31,747).
It might well documented but I didn't know you previously were heart set on the A6. Can you explain if not the money then what changed your mind?

Btw in Northern Ireland we don't get offered the 535xi only the 535i but in basic M/Sport trim that model costs 42,215 compared to the E350 at 41,435 and the A6 S/Line at 41,640 and when I tick the extras I want the order remains with the Merc as the cheapest and the BMW as the dearest with Audi in between. The difference isn't huge and doesn't matter to me as I'll buy the one that ultimately appeals to my requirements.
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  #296  
Old 08-17-2011, 06:20 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
It might well documented but I didn't know you previously were heart set on the A6. Can you explain if not the money then what changed your mind?

Btw in Northern Ireland we don't get offered the 535xi only the 535i but in basic M/Sport trim that model costs 42,215 compared to the E350 at 41,435 and the A6 S/Line at 41,640 and when I tick the extras I want the order remains with the Merc as the cheapest and the BMW as the dearest with Audi in between. The difference isn't huge and doesn't matter to me as I'll buy the one that ultimately appeals to my requirements.
A6 negatives:
Exterior design (!!!)
Little or no discounting on price
Non-existent customer support from Audi of America
Horrid dealer reputations for servicing (!!!)
LED's that are already on the road to looking played out/dated
General sense of disorganization (bordering on chaos) re: product details from dealerships and AoA website (!!!)

A6 Positives:
Power
Interior technology
Drivetrain smoothness
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  #297  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:44 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Location: Northern Ireland
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
A6 negatives:
Exterior design (!!!)
Little or no discounting on price
Non-existent customer support from Audi of America
Horrid dealer reputations for servicing (!!!)
LED's that are already on the road to looking played out/dated
General sense of disorganization (bordering on chaos) re: product details from dealerships and AoA website (!!!)

A6 Positives:
Power
Interior technology
Drivetrain smoothness
As I said I like the exterior so that negative isn't there for me. And everything bad about Audi of America isn't a problem here because the same family own Audi, BMAw and Merc dealership, plus the Porsche I buy my Cayenne from.

Amazing the different outcome by switching the side of the pond you buy from.
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  #298  
Old 08-17-2011, 08:56 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is offline
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Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
As I said I like the exterior so that negative isn't there for me. And everything bad about Audi of America isn't a problem here because the same family own Audi, BMAw and Merc dealership, plus the Porsche I buy my Cayenne from.

Amazing the different outcome by switching the side of the pond you buy from.
Viewed simply as a driving proposition I think the A6 is the slightly better choice. So if the factors I alluded to aren't a concern on your side of the pond then you may well have found your car.

Good luck with whatever you choose.
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  #299  
Old 08-17-2011, 09:11 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
After driving both the A6 and 5 series I reckon it's nitpicking as to which has the least feel, will be interesting to see if the E-class is any better.
This is telling
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  #300  
Old 08-17-2011, 10:22 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Location: Northern Ireland
 
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Mein Auto: Audi A6 TDI
Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
Viewed simply as a driving proposition I think the A6 is the slightly better choice. So if the factors I alluded to aren't a concern on your side of the pond then you may well have found your car.

Good luck with whatever you choose.
Well at the moment the A6 is in first place with me but all could change tomorrow after the Merc drive. I keep you posted as to the outcome.

P.S.
Didn't realise the A6 doesn't come with S/Tronic, that's one of the main attractions for me over the 5 series.

Last edited by BobBigMan; 08-17-2011 at 10:23 AM.
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