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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
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  #351  
Old 08-19-2011, 05:31 PM
Munich77 Munich77 is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Interesting point...the rumored 4 wheel drive M5 should be compelling - the first full out BMW application of a performance oriented 4 wheel drive system.
Yeah I wonder about that too.... I suspect that the M5 AWD is a prelude to the 6 Series Gran Touring (4 door couple) M which is probably going to be a Panamera Turbo competitor. As for the X5M/X6M from what I understand they are both identical as it comes for power train/AWD.
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  #352  
Old 08-19-2011, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
THANKS GUYS!

Thank you for your responses - I have found this issue perplexing.

I have long remembered this excerpt from a test in C&D between the S4 and the 335i - where C&D justified testing a rear drive 335i instead of a xDrive 335i to compete against the s4.

( the review notes that the rear wheel 335i is an inch closer to the ground v. 335iXdrive -
consequently, I assumed with all BMW Xdrives (excepting the X5M and X6M) rode higher than their rear wheel brothers.)

"Before you start cranking out toxic verbiage about our selection process, listen to our side of it. Audi’s competitive target for this S4 is BMW’s 335i xDrive (the all-wheel-drive variant). Don’t we, by the natural laws of the universe, have to compare the AWD S4 with BMW’s AWD version of the 335i, the so-called xDrive?

We don’t. We think the 335i in rear-drive mode is the more compelling performance package. So why penalize the BMW just because the S4 only comes in all-wheel drive? The rear-drive 335i is roughly 200 pounds lighter and has better weight distribution: 50.8 percent over the front axle versus 52.1 for the AWD xDrive. When the rear-drive BMW includes the Sport package, it rides an inch closer to the ground than the xDrive, lowering the center of gravity, which improves handling and reduces weight transfer. But add that Sport package to an xDrive, and you don’t get the lowered, sport-tuned suspension.

We say this knowing the 335i xDrive is, nonetheless, a little quicker off the line, thanks to the added grip of all four wheels delivering power to the tarmac. With a durability-testing redline clutch drop, the xDrive hits 60 mph in 4.7 seconds and breaks the quarter-mile mark in 13.4, bettering the rear-drive car by 0.2 second in both instances. But if you’re still going at it at 120 mph, the rear-drive car squeaks ahead by 0.4 second at 18.0. Although the xDrive may be a hair quicker in the acceleration categories that count, the additional weight, extra body roll, and inferior weight balance of a four-wheel-drive 335i hinder the overall performance. So that is why we went with the rear-drive 335i."

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

As a side bar I am surprised and pleased that an F10 550i XDrive can so seamlessly incorporate the power and torque of a DINAN tune, enhancing the dynamic qualities of the 550i, without sacrificing balance v. Porsche that incorporates all wheel drive as an integrated factory performance strategy. Says alot about the robust nature of BMW's XDrive.
Yes, the E9x xDrive models did sit higher than their RWD bretheren. For the F10, BMW decided that xDrive shouldn't raise the drive height, but that's what forced them into one variant with hydraulic steering and the other with electric. I'm would bet that the electric version is cheaper to manufacture. BMW also chose to numerically increase the final drive ratio to give the xDrive an acceleration advantage. I have no idea why anyone would chose to put Grand Touring Runflat tires on this car.
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  #353  
Old 08-19-2011, 05:57 PM
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From a steering perspective rwd is the better performance option. A wheel has the best traction when it's free from other forces than the road surface and it's own gyro forces. If you have driven on ice you can easily relate, applying throttle or breaks will make the wheels lose grip while depressing the clutch will help get traction back to the driving wheels when you lost it. Of the same reason rwd also give a purer steering feel, I.e there are fewer forces to interfere with the road feel. However from a forward traction aspect awd helps and this can often cancel out the rwd steering traction advantage. Still it depends since awd adds weight and I doubt an awd F1 car would be faster than the current rwd cars. For most people's driving habits and skills I would think awd would be faster if a sufficiently powerful engine is used.
Now you know why I trimmed nearly 36lbs from my front wheels/tires.
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  #354  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:00 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Bang on the money, Capobranco....

If we're talking handling: The 550i/550 xDrive are very capable, the Panamera S/4S will have an edge. Around a track, I'd bet on the Panamera every time. It's the only one with available torque vectoring and the only one with available composite ceramic brakes. There is limited track data for the S/4S but around AutoZeitung's test track the 400hp Panamera was faster than the E60 M5 and as fast as the E63 M6 - both 500hp cars with way more ///M pixie dust in the drivetrain and handling departments than the 550 xi M Sport.

If we're talking overall performance: I'd have to give the nod to the Panamera. It just does more things better.
Hmmm...this is all hypothetical, we are in basic agreement regarding the PanameraS having a performance edge over the 550i. However, I have vigorously contended that a PanaS would not be competitive with a DINAN 550i per dunderhi. I extrapolated this conclusion from car reviews that I had posted previously that demonstrated, that although the 550i would most likely be bested by the PanaS, the BMW was competitive. Given the very substantial advantage in both HP and Torque of the DINAN 550ix over a 400 HP - 369 Torque - PanaS - I would feel safe putting my money on the BMW.

However, the AutoZeitung data you bring to light, gives me pause. A very long pause.....

I suddenly feel a little quesy going all in on dunderhi.

anyways ... just wait till I get my new M5 - all wheel drive.....
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  #355  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
- just trying to understand....

- when you order a 550ix with M sport pack - tires are all season runflats v. a 550i with Msport which comes equipped with performance runflats.

On the 3 series - as C&D indicates - and as I know having driven a 335i with performance handling - the car is lower than an equivalent 335i equipped with Xdrive - as opposed to the F10. Dunderhi stated that the ride height is the same for both 550i and 550iX.

All of this would indicate that BMW generally treats XDrive less as a performance enhancement v. Porsche. However, the overall goodness of BMW XDrive is so robustly configured, that given a few simple modifications (dunderhi) - the system can be utilized to
significantly enhance performance. Porsche, as swajames has noted, integrates all wheel drive from the factory primarily to enhance performance.

Given all the above - we might conclude that a stock 550iX would be at a disadvantage v. a PanameraS unless one replaced the all season radials with performance tires. Perhaps out of box stock - no DINAN - with standard issue OEM performance tires - a 550i might be the choice to take on the PanameraS challenge.
With the stock tires, the 550xi is at a disadvantage - no question.
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  #356  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Hmmm...this is all hypothetical, we are in basic agreement regarding the PanameraS having a performance edge over the 550i. However, I have vigorously contended that a PanaS would not be competitive with a DINAN 550i per dunderhi. I extrapolated this conclusion from car reviews that I had posted previously that demonstrated, that although the 550i would most likely be bested by the PanaS, the BMW was competitive. Given the very substantial advantage in both HP and Torque of the DINAN 550ix over a 400 HP - 369 Torque - PanaS - I would feel safe putting my money on the BMW.

However, the AutoZeitung data you bring to light, gives me pause. A very long pause.....

I suddenly feel a little quesy going all in on dunderhi.

anyways ... just wait till I get my new M5 - all wheel drive.....
A very well advised pause, my friend. I'd strongly advise you to bet on the Dinan only in a straight line. If we were talking anything else, your money is probably safer on the Panamera. It simply corners, stops and handles at a level that's greater than you can get in the 550i xDrive.

Of course, we're still talking about a stock Panamera and a modified BMW. If one were so inclined, it's perfectly possible to throw a few extra Benjamins in the direction of your Panamera too, ranging from a few grand to further reduce unsprung weight to a fair few more to get the forced induction power plant under the hood
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  #357  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
A very well advised pause, my friend. I'd strongly advise you to bet on the Dinan only in a straight line. If we were talking anything else, your money is probably safer on the Panamera. It simply corners, stops and handles at a level that's greater than you can get in the 550i xDrive.

Of course, we're still talking about a stock Panamera and a modified BMW. If one were so inclined, it's perfectly possible to throw a few extra Benjamins in the direction of your Panamera too, ranging from a few grand to further reduce unsprung weight to a fair few more to get the forced induction power plant under the hood
I hate Porsche.

I hate swajames.

I wish dunderhi would kick swajames' ass.

I grew up in a family that raced 911s - I was taught that Porsche does more with less from a very early age.

jus' sayin' it's all good!
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  #358  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:42 PM
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I think you're on to something here, Capobranco.

There are two related questions here and both speak to the differences between the cars that are the subject of the thread. Whether these differences are important is, of course, up to our own individual priorities.

The first is how we objectively define and measure performance, and the second is whether xDrive (or other AWD systems for that matter) enhances or detracts from whatever our definition of performance may be.

To the first point, performance to me is the objective assessment and measurement of any given vehicle's ability to accelerate, handle, brake and corner. A performance car is generally one that has strengths in all four attributes and a sense of equilibrium in that the four performance components work together in harmony and translate into a positive user experience. A car that is strong in only one or two of the criteria or which has material deficiences in any of the criteria is less likely to meet the definition of a performance car.

The second is whether xDrive is a performance option. If it is, to me it must improve all of the performance attributes.

My sense, and I've seen nothing posted in either the empirical user perspectives or in any of the posted reviews to contradict it, is that it primarily enhances straight line acceleration and does less to enhance the others. Furthermore, adding the Dinan tune to say the 550 xDrive is all well and good, but the question one really needs to ask is whether the car can make the most of the increased output, broadly whether the other performance attributes are up to the job of leveraging the additional grunt. Again, my sense is that in the case of a 550i xDrive that they are not - the car isn't able to handle, corner or brake quite as well as it can accelerate.

My point, and it is one I've made throughout the thread, is that it is this that defines the Panamera as a performance choice - it can stop, go, turn and transition with confidence. The thing is, the Panamera 4S can pull pretty close to 1g on the skidpad, it's been tested at pretty consisently at around .96g. Motor Trend tested the Turbo at an even 1.00g in lateral acceleration earlier this year.

F10's generally have lower lateral g numbers than the Panameras and the difference in lateral acceleration isn't going to be eliminated by switching to more performance oriented tires. xDrive F10s will tend to have lower numbers still than their RWD brethren. We can debate whether this is due to the AWD or the increased weight but the net/net is that the 550i xDrive isn't going to be able to pull .96g and above on the skidpad, whereas the Panamera 4S can.

I don't have any official test numbers, but I did a single before-n-after test (wheels/tires) on a particular set of twisties near my home.

Before: At 50mph, the tires were howling and I had to fight the steering wheel to keep it in the right direction.

After: At 65mph, quiet, steered with one hand. I didn't want to try it any faster since it was a series of blind curves.

Did xDrive have anything to do with this? Probably in the before case where the car really fought to go straight, so in that case it could be considered a hinderence. Lessen the gyroscopic forces, and the power steering is more than you need. At this point xDrive can pull as well as push you through a turn while the driver is able to maintain control. Would it have been nice if BMW designed it this way from the beginning - sure. Did I roll the dice with a $6k tire/wheel package - definitely. It worked so well, I did the same thing a bought a lightweight set of winter wheels.
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  #359  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:45 PM
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I hate Porsche.

I hate swajames.

I wish dunderhi would kick sawjames' ass.

I grew up in a family that raced 911s - I was taught that Porsche does more with less from a very early age.
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  #360  
Old 08-19-2011, 06:51 PM
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With the stock tires, the 550xi is at a disadvantage - no question.
No doubt considering you'd get a bubble on the tire right off the line
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  #361  
Old 08-19-2011, 07:31 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I don't have any official test numbers, but I did a single before-n-after test (wheels/tires) on a particular set of twisties near my home.

Before: At 50mph, the tires were howling and I had to fight the steering wheel to keep it in the right direction.

After: At 65mph, quiet, steered with one hand. I didn't want to try it any faster since it was a series of blind curves.

Did xDrive have anything to do with this? Probably in the before case where the car really fought to go straight, so in that case it could be considered a hinderence. Lessen the gyroscopic forces, and the power steering is more than you need. At this point xDrive can pull as well as push you through a turn while the driver is able to maintain control. Would it have been nice if BMW designed it this way from the beginning - sure. Did I roll the dice with a $6k tire/wheel package - definitely. It worked so well, I did the same thing a bought a lightweight set of winter wheels.
I respect your knowledgeable direct experience.

We do know that BMWs are magicians when it comes to making large vehicles handle well e.g. X6M, X5M. Damn - even my 5000 LB GT does the skid pad in .89.

BMW has advanced the state of the art since the e60 M5 and E 63 M6 tests cited by swajames.

We do have recent empirical data from the 550i, 750i and 550iGT from which I extrapolated my prior conclusions.

IMO DINAN 550i v. PanaS is too close to call in terms of performance as defined by swajames.

Judging the total car - I reiterate I agree that the PanameraS may have better performance numbers than a 550i but I find the BMW to be the more compelling total package. For the record, I prefer my GT, independent of price, over the PanaS.
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  #362  
Old 08-19-2011, 07:31 PM
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  #363  
Old 08-19-2011, 07:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I respect your knowledgeable direct experience.

We do know that BMWs are magicians when it comes to making large vehicles handle well e.g. X6M, X5M. Damn - even my 5000 LB GT does the skid pad in .89.

BMW has advanced the state of the art since the e60 M5 and E 63 M6 tests cited by swajames.

We do have recent empirical data from the 550i, 750i and 550iGT from which I extrapolated my prior conclusions.

IMO DINAN 550i v. PanaS is too close to call in terms of performance as defined by swajames.

Judging the total car - I reiterate I agree that the PanameraS may have better performance numbers than a 550i but I find the BMW to be the more compelling total package. For the record, I prefer my GT, independent of price, over the PanaS.
Yet you don't credit Porsche's ability to build a large vehicle that can accelerate to 60 mph in the mid 3 seconds, lap the Nurburgring in 7:56 and deliver 1g of lateral grip on the skidpad? I'd say the magicians are in residence at Zuffenhausen, not Munich. For what it's worth, fastest laps shows the X6 M as having an 8:24 Nurburgring lap time time.

Turning to the E60 M5 and E63 M6, you won't find many BMWs that were faster around the Nurburgring than the two models I cited. In fact, it's only the e92 M3 and two M3 special editions including the M3 GTS. Unless you're claiming that the F10 is a faster, better handling car than the E60 M5 and E63 M6, the two data points are highly relevant - both have 500hp, both are considerably lighter than the F10 550 (and particularly the F10 550i xDrive) and both are, by most reasonable yardsticks, better handling and much, much more sporting than the Dinan 550 xDrive - yet neither is as quick as the Panamera around the Nordschleife. Let's not forget that the weight difference between the cars we're comparing here is from 400 to around 600lbs - the E60 M5/E63 M6 both hovered around 4000lbs curb weight. This is a massive difference - there's simply no way that the two F10 variants are going to be close to these M cars in terms of agility and handling. And with that said, if they can't beat the M5 or M6, they can't beat the Panamera.
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  #364  
Old 08-19-2011, 07:56 PM
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Likw I said find out which version of the X-Drive you have first. This will let you know if the version that you have will provide you performance enhancements like the Porsche, Audi and the BMW M cars do.
Think about this. If the regular X-Drive is that robust or good than why does BMW M division put a different system in the X6M? Not sure which they use in the X5M though? Look into this and you will find your answer. Just saying the X-drive system is robust tells you nothing because there are two systems for different uses.
There is a reason why BMW M and Audi higher end us mechanical AWD along with Porsche and VW and some lower BMW's use electrical AWD. One is for performance and one is for traction. You can also google Torsen vs Haldex for an explanation. The Torsen is mechanical and Haldex is electrical AWD. You will get the general information of mechanical vs electrical awd systems. That is one of the reason why the 335ix only offers regular suspension rather than the sport suspension on the car because the electrical AWD on that car is not really performance enhancing. All AWD offer increased grip/traction from a go but there is a difference between the AWD systems when pushing the car hard and how the AWD system reacts.

The true mechanical AWD systems have an advantage when tire slippage is part of the desired manuevers, such as in rally racing. The electronic systems have the advantage when no slippage is desired. So, it depends on what you are looking to do.

BTW, I think most systems today are electronic systems.

Quote:
Originally Posted by MotorTrend on the Panamera 4S, Turbo
All-wheel drive is standard on both the Panamera 4S and the Turbo. Using a clever "hang-on" module at the rear of the transmission, drive is transmitted to the front axle via double chamfered helical gears and a hollow drive shaft angled at 11 degrees to the right of the vehicle center line. The electronically controlled multi-plate clutch integrated in the transmission varies the amount of torque fed to the front differential. The differential itself is bolted to the right hand side of the engine. The left hand drive shaft goes right through the block, and is supported by a bearing mount bolted to the left side. This ingenious arrangement has allowed Porsche engineers to mount the V-8 engine as low as possible to help handling.
The F10 xDrive is mounted at the rear of the transmission also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW on the xDrive and the X6 X6M, X5M
Joy likes to do pioneer work. Because being the first feels good. For the first time in a BMW, Dynamic Performance Control gives the new BMW X6, BMW X6 M and BMW X5 M unique new cornering qualities as it seamlessly switches power between the left and right rear wheels to stabilise the vehicle within milliseconds while increasing traction and lateral acceleration.

That means you can enter bends more precisely and cross-accelerate faster with optimised grip when you accelerate out.

As a logical progression of the BMW xDrive all-wheel drive system, Dynamic Performance Control can be matched to all drive concepts and engines. Whereas BMW xDrive variably controls the power distribution between the front and rear axles, Dynamic Performance Control intelligently distributes power between the two rear wheels. This results in precise handling whatever the driving conditions. Together with the all-wheel BMW xDrive system, Dynamic Performance Control delivers enhanced agility and dynamics on all surfaces.
The X6M is electronic too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW on the xDrive
By countering loss of traction on the onset, BMW xDrive ensures optimum tracking stability and handling even in fast cornering. At the first sign of under steering, drive power to the front axle is reduced. If oversteering is detected, BMW xDrive directs more power to the front axle. Thanks to this dynamic redistribution of power, vehicle stability returns to normal even before the driver notices anything amiss.
BMW seems to think xDrive does more than just add traction.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BMW on the 5 Series
New model versions featuring the intelligent xDrive all-wheel-drive system will join the BMW 5 Series. In addition to the typical traction advantages of all-wheel drive, xDrive's electronic control system, which redistributes drive power with split-second speed, also provides further improved cornering agility, even on dry roads.
Even on the F10.
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  #365  
Old 08-19-2011, 08:15 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Interesting point...the rumored 4 wheel drive M5 should be compelling - the first full out BMW application of a performance oriented 4 wheel drive system.
I think the M5 will use the exact same AWD with sport diff as the X6M.
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  #366  
Old 08-19-2011, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
I hate Porsche.

I hate swajames.

I wish dunderhi would kick swajames' ass.

I grew up in a family that raced 911s - I was taught that Porsche does more with less from a very early age.

jus' sayin' it's all good!
As soon as he lays down his Benjamins on a Panamera Turbo S, I'll gladly race him. If he wins, I will publicly acknowledge before all Festers that care to listen that the Panamera Turbo S can defeat the 550xi. If he loses, well maybe a hot place will freeze over, who knows? Either way, he'll be stuck with $175k of butt ugly in his driveway. Meanwhile, I'll still have enough unspent budget to buy an M5x plus a Dinan mod.

The really funny part of all of this is that I have only spent Panamera V6 money on my 550, yet comparisons to much more expensive Panameras (plus their additional mods) keep coming up. I love it.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:31 PM
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As soon as he lays down his Benjamins on a Panamera Turbo S, I'll gladly race him. If he wins, I will publicly acknowledge before all Festers that care to listen that the Panamera Turbo S can defeat the 550xi. If he loses, well maybe a hot place will freeze over, who knows? Either way, he'll be stuck with $175k of butt ugly in his driveway. Meanwhile, I'll still have enough unspent budget to buy an M5x plus a Dinan mod.

The really funny part of all of this is that I have only spent Panamera V6 money on my 550, yet comparisons to much more expensive Panameras (plus their additional mods) keep coming up. I love it.
Come on - pay attention. It wouldn't take the Turbo S to beat you Throw some corners into the mix and you'd be unable to keep up with the 4S. Talented as Steve Dinan is, his software isn't doing anything to take the excess weight out of the 550i xDrive or upgrade the hardware to more performance oriented components.

And metaphorically throwing down the gauntlet to a guy 2500 miles away is kind of pointless. If you do have the courage of your convictions, why don't you start a thread over on Rennlist or 6Speedonline and link them to this one? Porsche owners are an obliging bunch, I'm sure you'll find a local Panamera owner more than wiling to step up to the plate and take a drive with you.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-19-2011 at 08:41 PM.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:40 PM
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Yet you don't credit Porsche's ability to build a large vehicle that can accelerate to 60 mph in the mid 3 seconds, lap the Nurburgring in 7:56 and deliver 1g of lateral grip on the skidpad? I'd say the magicians are in residence at Zuffenhausen, not Munich. For what it's worth, fastest laps shows the X6 M as having an 8:24 Nurburgring lap time time.
Ah, but didn't the magicians in Munich take the supposedly inferior F10 and turn it into an M5 and do a 7:55 around the ring?
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:44 PM
swajames swajames is online now
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Ah, but didn't the magicians in Munich take the supposedly inferior F10 and turn it into an M5 and do a 7:55 around the ring?
Well, the supposed pre-production F10 M5 time remains an internet myth...

The Panamera Turbo time is still the fastest for a production sedan.

And the magicians from Zuffenhausen haven't released a time for the Turbo S yet - it's a safe bet that it will be quicker than the Turbo
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:55 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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The true mechanical AWD systems have an advantage when tire slippage is part of the desired manuevers, such as in rally racing. The electronic systems have the advantage when no slippage is desired. So, it depends on what you are looking to do.

BTW, I think most systems today are electronic systems.



The F10 xDrive is mounted at the rear of the transmission also.



The X6M is electronic too.



BMW seems to think xDrive does more than just add traction.



Even on the F10.
All AWD systems have electronics certainly but the basis is either electronic or mechanical.
Most systems are not electronically based. Mechanical systems are used buy Subaru, Nissan GT-R, BMW M division, Audi, Porsche, RangeRover, etc.
Electronic based systems are used by VW, BMW, Audi, Infinity, etc.

X6M along with most new mechanical AWD systems are hybrid mechanical/electronic systems but it is still mechanically based while the normal X-Drive is electronic based. Difference in how slippage is detected and rectified.
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Old 08-19-2011, 08:59 PM
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Come on - pay attention. It wouldn't take the Turbo S to beat you Throw some corners into the mix and you'd be unable to keep up with the 4S. Talented as Steve Dinan is, his software isn't doing anything to take the excess weight out of the 550i xDrive or upgrade the hardware to more performance oriented components.

And metaphorically throwing down the gauntlet to a guy 2500 miles away is kind of pointless. If you do have the courage of your convictions, why don't you start a thread over on Rennlist or 6Speedonline and link them to this one? Porsche owners are an obliging bunch, I'm sure you'll find a local Panamera owner more than wiling to step up to the plate and take a drive with you.
I've driven both cars, and I'm confident in the one I own. My car handles nothing like a stock 550xi and I like that way. Anyway, I really don't have a need to prove that I can take a Panamera (you're back down to a 4S now?), and I certainly do not wish to troll in some Porsche forum - it's just bad taste. Forum members should provide positive contributions to the forums that participate and I don't have anything positive to contribute to the Porschephiles. I did read some of their their forums when I was car shopping, and all I noticed of merit were Panamera recalls and that PDK's were failing.

Anyway, it's fun to see you try couch race me with ways in which a much more expensive car needs mods to beat my little ole 550xi. Seriously, if the Panamera is so good, why haven't you suggest I track it against a Pana V6 - it's the lightest of the bunch?
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:07 PM
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Well, the supposed pre-production F10 M5 time remains an internet myth...

The Panamera Turbo time is still the fastest for a production sedan.

And the magicians from Zuffenhausen haven't released a time for the Turbo S yet - it's a safe bet that it will be quicker than the Turbo
1. Porschephile denial at its best.

2. A fleeting technicality.

3. Now you're comparing a another BMW to another even more expensive Porsche.
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Old 08-19-2011, 09:14 PM
swajames swajames is online now
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1. Porschephile denial at its best.

2. A fleeting technicality.

3. Now you're comparing a another BMW to another even more expensive Porsche.
The thing is you can't provide a concrete source confirming the supposed 7:55. It's not denial, it's a legitimate rebuttal is to an apocryphal data point that itself started with a rumor...

As I've repeatedly said, Porsche ownership will set you back more than BMW ownership. It just is what it is. Some find the difference worth it, some don't. We all pay our money and we all take our choice.

Anyway, I think we're all flogging a dead horse at this point. I've made my points and others have made theirs. We're at the point of rapidly diminishing returns with the thread now. I think it's kindest if we just let it die. Enjoy the 550. It is an excellent car, and you've modded it tastefully.
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Last edited by swajames; 08-19-2011 at 09:34 PM.
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  #374  
Old 08-19-2011, 10:04 PM
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All AWD systems have electronics certainly but the basis is either electronic or mechanical.
Most systems are not electronically based. Mechanical systems are used buy Subaru, Nissan GT-R, BMW M division, Audi, Porsche, RangeRover, etc.
Electronic based systems are used by VW, BMW, Audi, Infinity, etc.

X6M along with most new mechanical AWD systems are hybrid mechanical/electronic systems but it is still mechanically based while the normal X-Drive is electronic based. Difference in how slippage is detected and rectified.
The only difference between the F10 and the X6M xDrive system is the rear differential which BMW calls Dynamic Performance Control.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automobile
The Porsche Traction Management system in the Panamera 4S and Turbo models consists of permanent drive to the rear wheels augmented by computer-controlled and clutch-delivered variable drive to the front wheels. Milliseconds after rear-wheel spin is detected, the front wheels pitch in to sustain forward momentum.
I looks like the Panamera fits in the multiple-clutch systems with the 911 and xDrive.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Porsche 911 Hq.com
The new Porsche 911 Carrera Models equipped with all wheel drive have one of the most advanced driver aids ever featured on a standard production vehicle: Porsche Traction Management System (PTM). Although the system is exceedingly sophisticated, the basic concept of PTM is very simple. Essentially, the system actively distributes the engine's torque to the wheels that can use it most efficiently.

The heart of the Porsche Traction Management System is a permanent four-wheel drive system with a lockable center differential. Torque is distributed to the front and rear axles using an electronically controlled multi-plate clutch; this facilitates better road handling in ever road situation.

PTM also integrates a two-speed transfer case with low-range gearing for off-pavement use, an Automatic Brake Differential (ABD) to optimize traction, as well as Anti-Slip Regulation (ASR) for exceptional traction and greater stability under acceleration and braking.

If one of the wheels is about to lose traction, Porsche Traction Management uses the ABD system to apply the brake on that wheel. Torque that would otherwise be delivered to the slipping wheel is then fed to the opposite wheel. If both wheels on one axle are in danger of slipping, the ASR system intervenes through the electronic engine management and reduces power in order to maintain grip. By combining these functions, PTM ensures optimum traction on virtually every surface you'll encounter in your adventures.

Because all the functions of Porsche Traction Management are fully automatic, the result is more dynamic handling as well as greater active safety.
Ouch, Porsche applies the brakes for traction! Say it ain't so.



Below is a list of the AWD systems.

Center differential with mechanical lock, or other torque transfer features(mechanical)
•Alfa Romeo 164 Q4 (central viscous coupling, epicyclic unit and Torsen rear differential)
•Alfa Romeo 155 Q4 (central epicyclic unit, Ferguson viscous coupling and Torsen rear differential)
•AMC Eagle (central viscous coupling)
•Audi - Quattro Coupé, 80, 90, 100 & 200 (locking center and rear differentials) - up to 1987
Audi Q7 -double pinion 50/50 with lockup clutch pack
•Ford - Escort (RS 2000 16v 4x4 models and RS Cosworth), Sierra Cosworth, Sierra and Granada 4x4 models, Expedition & Expedition EL/Max (new): center mechanical differential/locking center differential(hi-lo)
•Mercedes GL-Class
•H1 & HMMWV NVG 242HD AMG open center differential, locked center differential, Neutral, low range locked. Also Torsen1 differential at the front and rear axle, The H1 moved to Torsen2 when ABS was added. The H1 Alpha had optional locking differentials in place of torsens
•Hummer H2, H3 40/60 planetary with lock
•Jeep Grand Cherokee, Commander (Quadra-Drive 2 version only for both vehicles)
•Jeep Liberty, Jeep Cherokee, Dodge Durango (Select-Trac)- NV 242 transfer case- rear drive, open center differential, locked center differential, Neutral, low range
•Full size Jeeps with Borg Warner QuadraTrac: limited slip center differential, 50/50 locked center differential. Low range could be used in locked or unlocked mode, allowing for use of low range on pavement.
•Land Rover Defender (and Series III V8 models)
•Land Rover/Land Rover Discovery/LR3
•Land Rover Freelander/Freelander
•Lada Niva - full-time 4WD using open center diff with manual lock
•Lexus LX470 -open with lock
•Lexus RX300 -viscous coupling across the otherwise open center differential.
•Mercedes-Benz Unimog (locking center and rear with up to 10 low range gears).
•Mercedes-Benz G-Class (locking center and lockers on both front- and rear axle)
•Mitsubishi Pajero (also known as Montero or Shogun)
•Porsche Cayenne (Porsche Traction Management) 38/62 planetary with lockup clutch pack
Range Rover
•Suzuki Grand Vitara -full-time 4WD using limited-slip center differential, off-road 4WD with selectable center differential lock and low range transfer case, traction control and electronic stability control
•Subaru Basic manual transmissions have a 50/50 viscous-type center differential, performance models have a planetary differential with computer regulated lockup. Automatic transmission models utilize an electronically controlled variable transfer clutch.
•Toyota Highlander 50/50 viscous-type center differential.
•Toyota Land Cruiser
•Toyota Sequoia (Multi-mode)
•Volkswagen Touareg -double pinion 50/50 with lockup clutch pack

Torsen center differential(mechanical)
•Alfa Romeos: 156 Crosswagon, 159, Brera, Spider Q4 (Torsen T-3)
Audis with (quattro) - 80 & 90, 100 & 200, A4, S4, RS4, A5 & S5, A6, S6, RS6, A8, S8, R8, Q7 (center) - various iterations of Torsen, including the latest T-3
•Bentley Continental GT, Bentley Continental Flying Spur (2005) Torsen T-1
•Chevrolet Trailblazer SS (center) (limited slip rear) Torsen T-3
•Lexus GX470, Toyota Land Cruiser Prado 120 (center) (with limited slip rear) Torsen T-3 with lock
•Toyota 4Runner (only Limited V8 model & 2010 Limited V6 model) (center) (also locking rear on V8) Torsen T-3 with lock
•Toyota FJ Cruiser (center) (only manual models) (also locking rear) Torsen T-3 with lock
•Toyota Hilux Surf (center) (also locking rear) Torsen T-3 with lock
•Toyota Land Cruiser 200/2008/V8 Torsen T-3 with lock
•Volkswagen Passat 4motion Torsen T-2 (B5.5 model, not latest model with transverse engine)
•Volkswagen Phaeton (center) Torsen T-2

Non-locking center differential(electronic)
•Cadillac Escalade, STS AWD, SRX AWD (The first two generations had a viscous clutch on the center differential)
•Chrysler 300C AWD
•Dodge Magnum, Charger AWD
•GMC Yukon Denali, XL Denali, Sierra Denali
•Mercedes 4MATIC cars, R class, and ML class (note some MLs had low range)
•Toyota Sienna AWD

Multiple-clutch systems(hybrid?)
•Acura RL, RDX (SH-AWD) Right and left axle shaft
•Acura MDX SH-AWD & VTM4
•Honda Ridgeline
•Honda Pilot
•Infiniti FX (ATTESA E-TS)
•Mitsubishi GTO MR/3000GT VR-4
•Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution Series
•Mitsubishi Outlander (2003-2006) independent front and rear axle coupling, and Active Center Differential.
Nissan GT-R (ATTESA E-TS)
•Nissan Skyline GT-R (ATTESA E-TS and ATTESA E-TS-PRO) front axle coupling, rear differential locking
•Nissan Skyline GTS4 (ATTESA E-TS)
•Nissan A31 Cefiro SE4 (ATTESA E-TS)
•Porsche 959 PSK front axle coupling, rear differential locking
•Saab 9-3, Saab 9-4X (Saab XWD).

Multi-plate clutch coupling (hybrid?)
•Audi A3 quattro, Audi TT quattro (with Haldex Traction)
BMW: 3series, 5series, X3, X5 (the initial X5's had a 38/62 planetary center differential)
•Chevrolet Equinox (GMPCA)
•Chrysler Pacifica (BorgWarner ITM3e) (on 2007 model)
•Dodge Nitro (Quadra-Trac 1)
•Dodge Caliber
•Ford: Escape, Freestyle, Edge, Fusion, Five Hundred (Freestyle, FiveHundred Haldex Traction based)(Escape Control Trac II, based), Explorer (Borg-Warner ITM 3e multi-plate clutch coupling)
•Honda CR-V, HR-V, Element
•Hyundai Santa Fe , Hyundai Tucson Borg-Warner ITM 3e magnetic multi-plate clutch coupling
•Hyundai Veracruz IMJ magnetic multi-plate clutch coupling
•Infiniti: G35x, M35x
•Jeep Compass (Freedom Drive)
•Jeep: Grand Cherokee and SRT8 NVG 249, 247
•Land Rover: LR2 (also Haldex Traction)
•Lamborghini: AWD variants VT series (viscous traction)
•Lincoln: MKS, MKZ
•Mazdaspeed6 (a power takeoff unit linked to clutch pack with torque sensitive rear differential.)
•Mazda: Tribute, CX-7, CX-9 (tribute Control Trac II, based)
•Mercury: Milan, Montego, Mariner (Montego Haldex Traction based)
•Mitsubishi Outlander (current generation)
•Nissan Murano automatic with manual lockup switch
Porsche 911 AWD variants (a version of BorgWarner ITM3e) — excluding the 964-series Porsche 911 Carrera 4 31/69 planetary center differential
•Pontiac Torrent (GMPCA)
•Subaru low powered automatic transmission models
•Subaru Legacy, Outback, Impreza, Forester, Tribeca automatic transmission models: mechanical front drive, clutch coupled rear axle.
•Suzuki: SX4, XL7, Aerio
•Toyota RAV4 (latest model, not older generations)
•Volvo: S40, S60, S80, V50, V70, XC70, XC90 (Visco system until 2003; then all Haldex Traction-based)
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  #375  
Old 08-19-2011, 10:06 PM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Well, the supposed pre-production F10 M5 time remains an internet myth...

The Panamera Turbo time is still the fastest for a production sedan.

And the magicians from Zuffenhausen haven't released a time for the Turbo S yet - it's a safe bet that it will be quicker than the Turbo
Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
OK then, I'll play. Can you provide a concrete source confirming the supposed 7:55? (hint - as of right now, you can't) It's not denial, it's a legitimate rebuttal is to an apocryphal data point that itself started with a rumor...

As I've repeatedly said, Porsche ownership will set you back more than BMW ownership. It just is what it is. Some find the difference worth it, some don't. We all pay our money and we all take our choice.
Point well taken...

Moreover, I cannot refute the AutoZeitung's data - which is the key underpinning your larger argument which is more credible than my rather tenuous extrapolated conclusions.

In terms of direct experience I have never driven a DINAN 550i.

My friend - CarFan - who runs a DINAN GT in SoFL, and has driven all manner of Panameras, makes a strong argument in favor of his modded GT but he is not here tonight.

In terms of performance as defined by swajames - the PanameraS may have an edge on the track but I reiterate that I find my BMW is more satisfying to drive on the street independent of price - different argument.

- swajames - congrats on a great job -
- dunderhi - carry on - we are counting on you!
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Last edited by Capobranco; 08-19-2011 at 10:28 PM.
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