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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 08-08-2011, 12:59 PM
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Ir's pretty easy to find McDonalds, Burger Kings, KFC, or Subways in Germany nowadays.
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  #77  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:26 PM
Munich77 Munich77 is offline
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I have to say that the Panamera's looks are growing on me - it is an acquired taste. The car certainly looks interesting. I am not sure so if I would want one in my garage.
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  #78  
Old 08-08-2011, 01:42 PM
5SeriesGod 5SeriesGod is offline
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If money is not the issue i would go with the Porsche !
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  #79  
Old 08-08-2011, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 5SeriesGod View Post
If money is not the issue i would go with the Porsche !
I do not agree, if money is not an issue, I would keep the 911.
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  #80  
Old 08-10-2011, 09:11 PM
Brett0429 Brett0429 is offline
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Wow I don't know what to so!
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  #81  
Old 08-10-2011, 10:57 PM
leanofpeak leanofpeak is offline
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ive change my mind and am getting a 2011 550i m-sport. the panny lease makes no sense to me in relation to the bmw lease. better bang for the buck with the bmw.

if i had money coming out of my wazoo id get the porsche, but i dont.
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  #82  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:16 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
ive change my mind and am getting a 2011 550i m-sport. the panny lease makes no sense to me in relation to the bmw lease. better bang for the buck with the bmw.

if i had money coming out of my wazoo id get the porsche, but i dont.
The VAG guys will probably be disappointed, but the F10 can be pretty compelling on a cost basis.

Congrats (again?).
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  #83  
Old 08-11-2011, 06:42 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
ive change my mind and am getting a 2011 550i m-sport. the panny lease makes no sense to me in relation to the bmw lease. better bang for the buck with the bmw.

if i had money coming out of my wazoo id get the porsche, but i dont.
The 550 is by no means perfect. But yes, there is always the monetary consideration. There are always other considerations. I've said either in here or other threads, I'd love to own an S4 or M3 sedan instead of the 535. However, there's no way I could live with either of those cars day to day, nor could I take the type of trips that I want to.

In your case, the Bimmer is not as pure of a driver as the Porsche...but at what cost? Similar to why I run high performance all season tires on my car. Am I sacrificing some performance in the summer? Sure. Would I ever use that performance? Nope. There's no way to access that performance in the DC area without getting up at 5 on a Sunday morning. And with 2 little kids, that ain't happening.
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  #84  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:55 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Was fortunate enough to have been loaned a Panamera 4S for a weekend when I showed interest in one just prior to ordering my Cayenne, a great car, super smooth with the best engine transmission combination of any car and the whole interior felt to me at least as a step up in quality to that of the A6/5 series/E class but then it was priced way out of their league too. I quickly decided against one due to not knowing where the nose was, which I felt was a major problem in a car that felt this wide, I reckon Porsche didn't have our back roads in mind when developing this car. To me the big Cayenne is far easier to place in the road which is saying something.

If the price and size isn't a problem to you then the Panamera is by far the better car, though it's not the best value for your money.
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  #85  
Old 08-11-2011, 08:24 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
ive change my mind and am getting a 2011 550i m-sport. the panny lease makes no sense to me in relation to the bmw lease. better bang for the buck with the bmw.

if i had money coming out of my wazoo id get the porsche, but i dont.
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
If the price and size isn't a problem to you then the Panamera is by far the better car, though it's not the best value for your money.
Porsche - There Is No Substitute.

Porsche may not want to admit it, but there are occasionally better overall substitutes available. Having grown up in a family that worshiped at the
House of Porsche - I was taught to genuflect at Porsche's altar. I respect the brand and have had the priviledge of driving Porsches for a number of years.
However, IMO, and in the opinion of others - there are occasionally better substitutes -http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...a_s/index.html

I like the Panamera but BMW can make a compelling case as the better overall choice - independent of price. Factor in price and BMW will usually be the better value play – icing on the cake. The 550i is a great choice.

Congrats on your new BMW.
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  #86  
Old 08-11-2011, 08:36 AM
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To be fair to the Panamera, it is intended to play in the 7 / S / A8 category. And is priced accordingly. The fact that it is dynamically superior or at least equal to a 550 is amazing.

The upcoming Pajun (Panamera Junior) will be more in line size and price wise to the 5 (although being a Porsche, ut will likely always be the expensive choice). But dynamically, I believe ut will change the game and permanently raise the bar. Looking forward to Pajun Turbo S vs. M5 comparo.

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  #87  
Old 08-11-2011, 09:10 AM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
To be fair to the Panamera, it is intended to play in the 7 / S / A8 category. And is priced accordingly. The fact that it is dynamically superior or at least equal to a 550 is amazing.

The upcoming Pajun (Panamera Junior) will be more in line size and price wise to the 5 (although being a Porsche, ut will likely always be the expensive choice). But dynamically, I believe ut will change the game and permanently raise the bar. Looking forward to Pajun Turbo S vs. M5 comparo.

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It's priced like a 7, but sized like a 5. Unfortunately for Porsche and the economies of scale, if they had designed and built the 5 series themselves, it probably would still be priced like a 7 series. I suspect the Pajun will be sized like the F30 3 Series and priced like the F10. The only thing that will help them with some of their cost situation is if VAG shares the engineering/platform/components across brands like they did with the Cayenne.

Pana: 195.7L x 55.8H x 76W, 115.0WB
F01: 199.7-205.3L x 58.2H x 74.9W, 120.9-126.4WB
F07: 196.8 x 61.4H x 74.8W, 120.7WB
F10: 193.1L x 57.6H x 73.2W, 116.9WB
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  #88  
Old 08-11-2011, 09:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Porsche - There Is No Substitute.

Porsche may not want to admit it, but there are occasionally better overall substitutes available. Having grown up in a family that worshiped at the
House of Porsche - I was taught to genuflect at Porsche's altar. I respect the brand and have had the priviledge of driving Porsches for a number of years.
However, IMO, and in the opinion of others - there are occasionally better substitutes -http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...a_s/index.html

I like the Panamera but BMW can make a compelling case as the better overall choice - independent of price. Factor in price and BMW will usually be the better value play – icing on the cake. The 550i is a great choice.

Congrats on your new BMW.
Other comparison tests, however, have given the win to the Panamera against far more illustrious and challenging competition than the GT such as the Aston Martin Rapide, the BMW 750i, the Maserati Quattroporte GTS (Car & Driver), the BMW X6M, the Cadillac CTS-V (Motor Trend) and others.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...o/viewall.html


These tests, too, are also somewhat independent of price. The Rapide lists at 200K, and many of the tests were with a Panamera S rather than the more expensive Turbo.

Ultimately, you pay you money and you take your choice, and if you want the Porsche you're going to have to pony up quite a bit more than if you want a BMW.

The BMW, for some, might win on practicality or on its much lower price, that's about it. I suspect very few Panamera owners, particuarly those prepared to drop 150K or more on the Turbo/Turbo S, really care that much about either of these things.
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  #89  
Old 08-11-2011, 10:41 AM
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words of the wise. thanks everyone.

so brett, what are you going to do?
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  #90  
Old 08-11-2011, 10:57 AM
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I agree - I really like the Panamera - either the S or Turbo. It's really just a function of being about $30,000 more for a PS... Not sure if it's worth it, but sometimes you just have to not worry about that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leanofpeak View Post
i am in between a 550xi and a panamera s/4s too. leaning heavily towards the bmw. what really sucks is that the 2012 pannys are hitting the lots now, the 2012 550's wont be here for another 2 1/2 months.

all the more reason to buy the panny now. plus it does drive so nice. and that transmission.
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  #91  
Old 08-11-2011, 11:15 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Porsche - There Is No Substitute.

Porsche may not want to admit it, but there are occasionally better overall substitutes available. Having grown up in a family that worshiped at the
House of Porsche - I was taught to genuflect at Porsche's altar. I respect the brand and have had the priviledge of driving Porsches for a number of years.
However, IMO, and in the opinion of others - there are occasionally better substitutes -http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...a_s/index.html

I like the Panamera but BMW can make a compelling case as the better overall choice - independent of price. Factor in price and BMW will usually be the better value play – icing on the cake. The 550i is a great choice.

Congrats on your new BMW.
As someone in the process of seriously considering a new 5 series I am under no illusions about the 5 series being as good as the Panamera, it's the best sports saloon though it's not the best value and I don't see the difference worth it over the likes of the 550i but then again the price does matter to me.
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  #92  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Other comparison tests, however, have given the win to the Panamera against far more illustrious and challenging competition than the GT such as the Aston Martin Rapide, the BMW 750i, the Maserati Quattroporte GTS (Car & Driver), the BMW X6M, the Cadillac CTS-V (Motor Trend) and others.

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...o/viewall.html


These tests, too, are also somewhat independent of price. The Rapide lists at 200K, and many of the tests were with a Panamera S rather than the more expensive Turbo.

Ultimately, you pay you money and you take your choice, and if you want the Porsche you're going to have to pony up quite a bit more than if you want a BMW.

The BMW, for some, might win on practicality or on its much lower price, that's about it. I suspect very few Panamera owners, particuarly those prepared to drop 150K or more on the Turbo/Turbo S, really care that much about either of these things.

OK – let's play dueling experts - but let's try to stay on topic Panamera v. BMW.


http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...a_s/index.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...mparison_tests


Split decision? - Batter up…..….. BMW Scores!


http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...son/index.html

Hmmm – in two out of three comparison tests - BMWs were rated superior to the Panamera - in head to head contests. Value is icing on the cake.

Quite frankly – given C&D's orientation – if a F/10 550i had been substituted for the 750i – The BMW would have won that one too - independent of price, given the 550i's more sporting character vis-a-vis the 750i, and overall balance – examine the score card.

As I have said, I seriously considered purchasing a Panamera and spent considerable time evaluating my GT v. Panamera head to head. My BMW 550i GT was the better overall car. I did not see the Automobile Magazine review before purchasing my GT but affirmation is nice. Thank you Automobile Magazine.

It really comes down to where you place your priorities – ditto – car reviews. The opinions
expressed in a car review are far from being scientific truth.

Of course, if we are evaluating the Panamera in terms of bling - Porsche wins big time - just sayin'.
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  #93  
Old 08-11-2011, 02:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
As someone in the process of seriously considering a new 5 series I am under no illusions about the 5 series being as good as the Panamera, it's the best sports saloon though it's not the best value and I don't see the difference worth it over the likes of the 550i but then again the price does matter to me.
Feel good about your 550i - it's not only the value play, but the better car in absolute terms!

Moreover, if you are concerned about cachet - the Panamera, as it proliferates, appears to be in the process of becoming just another Porsche. In my neighborhood, there is no particular distinction to driving a Panamera - Panameras appear to be as common as 911s.
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Old 08-11-2011, 02:56 PM
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Capobranco,

I agree with your comment on the car reviews, but it is these reviews that seemingly form most of the substance of your arguments so let's continue in that vein.

With that said, I'd already posted three comparison tests where the Panamera won against very high end opposition. When the car wins against the Rapide, the X6M, the Quattroporte, the 750i and the CTS-V you know you have something special.

If you read the Motor Trend test you posted, as they themselves acknowledge, we're swimming (and I accept this is relative) in the shallower end of the premium automotive gene pool with that comparison test. They also acknowledge that the Porsche was the best performer despite it being the entry level V6 model (a model which frankly I'd prefer they didn't make, but nevertheless they do). The Panamera was built to perform. That is, in a nutshell, its raison d'κtre - and even the lowest end model as was tested here performed better than all of the competitors tested.

Anyway - back to the test you brought up from Motor Trend - and remember this is the entry level base Panamera and not the S/4S/Turbo:

HOW THEY RANKED

Here is how the seven stacked up against industry yardsticks as well as our senses and stopwatches.

PERFORMANCE*
1. Porsche 77
2. Audi 75
3. Jaguar 69
4. BMW 66
5. Lexus 59
6. Hyundai 56
7. Mercedes-Benz 48
*Compilation of acceleration/braking/handling performance

LEASE RESIDUAL VALUE/MONTHLY PAYMENT*
1. Lexus 52%/$1557
2. Jaguar 52%/$1649
3. Hyundai 51%/$1172
4. BMW 48%/$1719
5. Audi 45%/$1904
6. Porsche 44%/$1976
7. Mercedes-Benz 40%/$2016
*ALG 36-month, 10%, $0-down lease

JDPOWER QUALITY: IQS VDS*
1. Porsche 83 110
2. Lexus 88 115
3. Mercedes-Benz 87 142
4. Hyundai 102 148
5. BMW 113 165
6. Audi 111 182
7. Jaguar 130 175
*Problems per 100 vehicles across entire brand: Initial Quality Survey (90 days) and Vehicle Dependability Survey (3 years). Underscore indicates industry average (109/155)

COMFORT
1. Lexus
2. Mercedes
3. Hyundai
4. Audi
5. Jag
6. BMW
7. Porsche

TECH-GEEK GADGETRY
1. Audi (LED headlights, Drive Select, handwriting input)
2. Hyundai (Lane-Departure, radar cruise control)
3. Porsche (highly customizable cockpit displays, PDK, auto-stop)
4. BMW (active anti-roll bars, iDrive customizability)
5. Mercedes (Hybrid drive, auto-stop)
6. Lexus (self-parking feature)
7. Jaguar

SOUND SYSTEM QUALITY
1. Lexus Mark Levinson
2. Jaguar Bowers & Wilkins
3. Hyundai Lexicon
4. BMW base (unbranded)
5. Porsche Bose Surround
6. Audi base (Bose)
7. Mercedes-Benz base (harman/kardon)

LABEL SNOBBERY
1. Porsche
2. Mercedes-Benz
3. BMW
4. Jag
5. Audi
6. Lexus
7. Hyundai

Read more: http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1UlDShAvr

Quote:
Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post
Feel good about your 550i - it's not only the value play, but the better car in absolute terms!

Moreover, if you are concerned about cachet - the Panamera, as it proliferates, appears to be in the process of becoming just another Porsche. In my neighborhood, there is no particular distinction to driving a Panamera - Panameras appear to be as common as 911s.
To me, you're looking at this as which is the better family car and better jack of all trades. By those criteria, the F07 and F10 will have a lot to offer. But these typically aren't reasons to buy a Porsche, and they're not reasons to buy a Panamera (my Porsche is one of four cars I own and it my least driven of my four cars, but it is by far my favorite).

If I were looking for that jack of all trades or if I were on a more limited budget (and this is obviously relative), I'd certainly consider the F10 and maybe even consider an F07 too instead of a Panamera. I'd maybe also try to talk myself into thinking I'd bought a better car. I may even claim so on internet forums. But deep down, I'd know I'd settled for the less premium and less capable car. It just is what it is. Porsche is a more premium brand, and the Panamera performs to a much higher standard. But I think I'd feel slightly ridiculous, participating in the internet equivalent of fiddling while Rome was burning by making outrageous pronouncements that would make even the Iraqi Information Minister blush, in claiming that the F07/F10 was better in absolute terms and not just in value terms than the car that is much more widely acknowledged as being the performance benchmark in its class. The F07/F10 are great cars. But as a work of performance and precision engineering, the Panamera is better.
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  #95  
Old 08-11-2011, 07:53 PM
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...Now another word, from the poetry corner...


Ode to the 997 Carrera S Convertible, Midnight Blue, 6-Speed, blah blah

You like to show your research
and you like to show Your Wealth,
You like to take enjoyment in
A snarky bitter stealth.

But implying in sarcasm
fails to mask the ugly traits
that a premium automobile
still hardly compensates.

Some leave the price tags on their gifts
Perhaps your one of those, (Get real)
Remember guys like that get taken,
Off’ed, along with the Bastille.


I feel a cake coming on…


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  #96  
Old 08-11-2011, 08:17 PM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
With that said, I'd already posted three comparison tests where the Panamera won against very high end opposition. When the car wins against the Rapide, the X6M, the Quattroporte, the 750i and the CTS-V you know you have something special.
Yes, but not against the 550i. How about comparing a 2 seater Lotus 2 eleven, and the 4 seater Panamera S or Turbo, or a proper 5 seater 750Li with plenty of legroom? Or how about the M3 against the Pana turbo?? Guess which will perform better? The Pana S lost to the 550i GT in the review above if one is into reviews.

Last edited by bm323; 08-11-2011 at 08:47 PM.
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Old 08-11-2011, 08:43 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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That's a lot of effort for little 'ole me, Capobranco

You like the blondes from Munich, I like the brunettes from Zuffenhausen. It's all good. Enjoy your car.



(And in fairness, I do take the price tags off)
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Old 08-11-2011, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post


That's a lot of effort for little 'ole me, Capobranco

You like the blondes from Munich, I like the brunettes from Zuffenhausen. It's all good. Enjoy your car.



(And in fairness, I do take the price tags off)
Red, Blonde, Brunette, Flaxen, I'll marry 'em
'Swhat's under the bonnets that vary 'em--
It's your way, It's my way,
let's end on the high-way,
Whether Stuttgarter or a Bavarian.

(And in fairness, I don't-- just kiddin')
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  #99  
Old 08-11-2011, 10:16 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
To me, you're looking at this as which is the better family car and better jack of all trades. By those criteria, the F07 and F10 will have a lot to offer. But these typically aren't reasons to buy a Porsche, and they're not reasons to buy a Panamera (my Porsche is one of four cars I own and it my least driven of my four cars, but it is by far my favorite).

If I were looking for that jack of all trades or if I were on a more limited budget (and this is obviously relative), I'd certainly consider the F10 and maybe even consider an F07 too instead of a Panamera. I'd maybe also try to talk myself into thinking I'd bought a better car. I may even claim so on internet forums. But deep down, I'd know I'd settled for the less premium and less capable car. It just is what it is. Porsche is a more premium brand, and the Panamera performs to a much higher standard. But I think I'd feel slightly ridiculous, participating in the internet equivalent of fiddling while Rome was burning by making outrageous pronouncements that would make even the Iraqi Information Minister blush, in claiming that the F07/F10 was better in absolute terms and not just in value terms than the car that is much more widely acknowledged as being the performance benchmark in its class. The F07/F10 are great cars. But as a work of performance and precision engineering, the Panamera is better.

Man your right, I did settle on the F10 afterall. I made the mistake of taking Mrs. Dunderhi with me to check out the Audi A8. It wasn't the A8 that impressed me, it was R8 5.2 which was offered to me at $20k off ($10k less than the PanaT I spec'd). Before I could say I'll take it, Mrs. Dunderhi saw the look in my eye and quickly exclaimed NO! It's that ask permission or beg forgiveness quandry. If she stayed home that day, I would of drove up driveway in a new R8 and she would have just rolled her eyes (as she has done many times before). In hindsight, the R8 would have looked a little funny with a bike rack mounted on it. So, I guess I made the right decision afterall.

BTW, what are the other cars that you choose to spend time with instead of your 911?
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Old 08-11-2011, 10:49 PM
bavariancraving bavariancraving is offline
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