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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #151  
Old 08-13-2011, 10:35 AM
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Capobranco Capobranco is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Hooray, the 550 has reached Camry status! ...


You said it - I didn't!

Touche - what goes around comes around -
(You were right before - your own words can come back and bite you in the ass -
I will long 'memba your 5K lb bloated GT whale zinger?)


...but seriously - your post concisely frames the argument.
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  #152  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Hooray, the 550 has reached Camry status! I no longer need to worry about speed traps when my speed warning chime sounds (which happens often). I guess the LEO's will be focused on Panawagons owners for their tax collection efforts.

Below are a few options for your consideration:

Option 1

A) Panamera: $75k - $4k discount = $71k
300hp

B) 550i: $73k - $7k discount + $5k mods = $71k
Mods: Dinan (495hp, suspension reprogram), max performance tires

Option 2

A) Panamera S: $113k - $7k discount = $106k
400hp

B) M5: ~$113k - $11k discount + $4k mods = $106k
Mods: Dinan (~600hp)

Option 3

A) Panamera T: $147k - $0k discount = $147k
500hp

B) M5: ~$113k - $11k discount + $4k mod1 +$42k mod2= $147k
Mod1: Dinan (~600hp)
Mod2: A dedicated track car (or some other toy)


I know which options I would choose. How about you?
IMO - when you buy a Porsche you purchase it for its dynamic qualities but you are also buying into the Porsche mystic. Moreover, I suspect a bit of "attention whore" lurks in the heart of many Porsche fans especially Panamera owners. The 550i, as you have described it, is a true enthusiast and best value play, but I suspect the 550i's dynamic qualities pale for many in the face of Porsche mystic and the opportunity to showboat.
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Last edited by Capobranco; 08-13-2011 at 11:15 AM.
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  #153  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Capobranco View Post


You said it - I didn't!

Touche - what goes around comes around -
(You were right before - your own words can come back and bit you in the ass -
I will long 'memba your 5K lb bloated GT whale zinger?)

"I'm rubber you're glue...."


...but seriously - your post concisely frames the argument.
Hmm, I though my GT weight jab was it was something like it akin to having look at a 400lb Samoan or mother-in-law always sitting in the backseat.

Humor aside, we both looked at the F07 & the F10 and we picked the cars that best suited our needs/desires. Luckily BMW gave us the option to choose our cars, unlike they did for F11.
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  #154  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:34 AM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
...
Humor aside, we both looked at the F07 & the F10 and we picked the cars that best suited our needs/desires...
I'll drink to that:

"Zicke, zacke, zicke, zacke, hoi, hoi, hoi!"

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  #155  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:35 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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If price is the sole reason for picking one car over another then you aren't really an enthusiast.
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  #156  
Old 08-13-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
If it was based on the Panamera vs 550i stock vs stock as it isn't fair to judge a stock vs modded car, then I would pick the Panamera. Reason is handles better and is more exclusive and prestigious. When shelling out that kind of money the latter two reasons for me atleast does play into the equation. I think if you have to add the mod into the equation then the choice is pretty obvious.
Not fair. Why not? If I want to spend $71k on a car why can't I consider mods in my buying decision? When I decided to buy my 550, I had $10k in mods factored into the cost. Lighter wheels, stickier rubber, and more power have obtained performance levels the the PanaV6 could never dream of. I'm considering more mods, but the Pana4S is already in my rearview mirror. The total price and the total performance go hand in hand. For Panamera dollars, the F10 is the enthusiast's car.
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  #157  
Old 08-13-2011, 12:15 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
Not fair. Why not? If I want to spend $71k on a car why can't I consider mods in my buying decision? When I decided to buy my 550, I had $10k in mods factored into the cost. Lighter wheels, stickier rubber, and more power have obtained performance levels the the PanaV6 could never dream of. I'm considering more mods, but the Pana4S is already in my rearview mirror. The total price and the total performance go hand in hand. For Panamera dollars, the F10 is the enthusiast's car.
If you are adding mods into an equation then you could get an older Audi, BMW etc and just put $30k+ into a car and it would beat both the Panamera and 550i. That is the reason Mods should not be put into a comparison. If you compare cars then compare them either stock vs stock or modded vs modded. Whenever comparing modded cars based on performance it always is whoever has the most cash wins.
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  #158  
Old 08-13-2011, 12:17 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
If price is the sole reason for picking one car over another then you aren't really an enthusiast.
I assume you are talking about the 550i being value statement?
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  #159  
Old 08-13-2011, 01:03 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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From some posts above, some posters seem to be focusing on horsepower. I'll say what I've said before - it only really makes sense to take look at the entire package. The 4600lb 550 xi just wasn't built with the dynamic attributes of the Panamera, it was built by BMW to excel in other areas, which it duly does. If BMW had meant it and built it to be a 500bhp car, it would make fewer compromises with the dynamics:

Let's look at some of the differences:

Better handling - the F10 doesn't have the lateral grip or transient agility of the Panamera. You won't find slalom speeds, skidpad lateral g or lap times that can match the Panamera.

Better braking - brakes are known to be a Porsche strong point, they can take unbelievable punishment and are very resistant to fade. BMW brakes stop well, but it's generally acknowledged that they can't do it time after time.

Better transmission - the PDK is a true performance transmission and with Sport Chrono has launch control, the torque-converter equipped ZF box in the F10 is great as an auto, but it's not in the same league as the PDK.

Performance options - with the Panamera, you can option ceramic composite brakes (8K), dynamic chassis control with torque vectoring (5K) with an additional air suspension option (another 2K), a sports exhaust (3K), and adaptive sports seats (3K). It's the availability of options like these that show the orientation of the Panamera is towards sport and performance.

The net/net is that a 500hp F10 550/Xi still isn't going to handle or stop as well as the Panamera, and checking only one of three boxes (NB, and even then only against the lower end range models) doesn't necessarily make it a performance car. It is also worth remembering that those comparisons only work when you focus solely on price. Looking at the Panamera V6 and declaring a "win" is perhaps a little hollow as what you've done is effectively compared against the 528i of the Panamera range. That the top of the F10 range has performance that in some respects better the least capable Panamera is hardly a surprise, it's just evidence that outside of these forums, neither BMW nor Porsche built these cars to compete with each other. Sure, a few will cross shop, but in the main buyers of one aren't going to be that interested in the other. I doubt if either of these two manufacturers are really looking for conquest sales from the other in the case of these specific models. Price parity will blur some of the lines, but I'd think both BMW and Porsche would agree that these two cars don't really compete with each other.

The point is that it's not just about HP. Handling and weight are of equal importance if we're really assessing overall performance. For example, a 997.2 Carrera S with just 385bhp has a much faster Nurburgring time (7:50) than even the Panamera Turbo and the rumored F10 M5 (7:55). Determining whether a car is "quick" is much more than its ability to go fast in a straight line. Back in the E60 days, the charge that BMW owners would often levy against the higher powered E Class sedans was that they were straight line merchants that couldn't really cut it when the road got a little twisty. Is that what we're saying the F10 has become?

And not that it matters, but if we did want to bring mods into the equation, one poster had it bang on the money in saying that it is something of a slippery slope as the only limiting factor is your willingess to spend. I don't doubt you can generally mod the F10 for less, but it's worth remembering that there are plenty of Porsche Turbos out there with well in excess of 1000 bhp, and the Porsche V8 Turbo engine is easily capable of well over 800 bhp and more with a few mods as we've seen with the Cayenne. Ultimately, it is all about your willingness to invest and your own perspective on your ROI and your cost/benefit.
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  #160  
Old 08-13-2011, 01:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
... whoever has the most cash wins.
Yup, that's the way it usually works.

As far buying a beater and modding it, that's not quite a new car is it? With BMW and Dinan, I maintain my new car warranty, keep my free maintenance, and get to enjoy that new car smell. I look at Dinan as ordering options that should have been on BMW's option list in the first place. A Dinan CAI and suspension tune are next items to check off. An AWD 550 with 520hp/600tq, a Dinan-tuned suspension, forged wheels, Michelin Pilot Super Sports, and the tech that Porsche Engineers haven't mastered yet, such as a HUD, Night Vision, and Surround View and $25k of savings for a Ducati or some other toy when compared to a 4S makes the 550 ideal car for me.
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  #161  
Old 08-13-2011, 02:06 PM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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I assume you are talking about the 550i being value statement?
I reckon that if you chose one car over another simply on price then the whole driving experience isn't the underlining factor that sways your decision, something at an enthusiast wouldn't do.

Also I'm with you on the mod thing, it's stupid to include it in any discussion or debate.
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  #162  
Old 08-13-2011, 02:07 PM
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Looking at the Panamera V6 and declaring a "win" is a little hollow as what you've done is effectively compared against the 528i of the Panamera range.
No, I compared a $71k 550i against a $71k Panamera. There's no fairer way to compare the cars, but all I asked is which options would the new car purchasers on this board prefer? Thanks for insinuating the the 550 is the winner.

BTW, you've been asked a couple times now: What is in you four car fleet? Certainly you must have signed the paperwork on a new Panamera Turbo S by now. I signed the dotted line on a new 550xi with mods planned and have zero regrets.
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  #163  
Old 08-13-2011, 02:34 PM
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Also I'm with you on the mod thing, it's stupid to include it in any discussion or debate.
Call me stupid if that makes you feel better about yourself, but comparing a $115k car to $85k doesn't make any sense to me. I earn every dollar I make, so I tend to spend them wisely. Please don't confuse spending wisely with lack of enthusiasm, I'm just not a Porsche fanboy; legends and fables don't mean anything to me. Ask me what is the best performance car one can get for a certain amount of money and the 5 door hatchback Panamera isn't the answer. With that in mind, let's talk about the Nissan GTR, certainly you enthusiasts can appreciate a true engineering marvel, unless of course it isn't expensive enough for you.
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  #164  
Old 08-13-2011, 04:52 PM
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Hmmm…..

- dunderhi posted thought provoking persuasive comparisons -

- swajames posted an essay that is logical, persuasive, and a joy to read -

- only one way to settle this - dunderhi in his 550i and swajames in his Panamera (loaner provided when his 911 is in service) – and off to the track - where do I put my cash? - easy - dunderhi - (I really would like to reward swajames for his well written prose but I work too hard to throw my money away for the sake of sentiment.)

Well obviously we cannot go to the track together but we can extrapolate from published numbers, reviews, and personal experience to suggest winners.

We do know that:
the Panamera posted numbers, dynamically, besting the 740i
the PanameraS posted numbers, dynamically, besting the 550iGT and the 750i
Note – all reviewers remarked on how well the BMWs dynamically performed but gave the performance nod to the Porsche, but awarded best overall to the BMWs in two out of three reviews.

We also know from published results on R&T and other publications that the F10 550i and 550i GT are dynamically very close - with a slight edge given to the F10 - (These numbers have been published on both the F10 and F07 forums.)

So it is logical that the 550i that posseses 100 HP more and 150 more ft/lbs of torque than the 740i and is slightly better dynamically than the 550i GT – which almost bested the PanameraS – would perform better than a 300 HP Panamera.
Yeah, Yeah Yeah – I know about Porsche brakes etc. but the BMW has a huge HP advantage and it packs sharper handling than the 740i that challenged the Panamera.

550i v. Panamera – no contest – BMW in the winner's circle.
550i v. PanameraS – real battle – I'd give the edge to the PanameraS
Dinan 550i w/handling mods v. PanameraS – my money goes all in on the BMW

This is fun speculation but I imagine that many if not most Panamera owners will never come close to exploiting the potential of their cars. Based on my many years being a PCA member - many Porsche owners bask in the glow of the Porsche mystique but never exercise their cars - the Porsche ranks are rife with poseurs, greybeards, and showboaters. I would expect many Panamera owners purchase their cars not for what the car can do but how it makes them look. Been there, done that…... I'm jus' "sorta" sayin' -
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  #165  
Old 08-13-2011, 05:46 PM
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Well, you've thrown down the gauntlet there, Capo!

There are just two possible flys in the proverbial ointment.

The first is that we're still limiting the Panamera to the base and S/4S. That's logical on one level, as there's clearly more price parity. On another, though, if we're comparing the top of the range F10 it's entirely legitimate to bring the top of the range Panameras to the table too. The performance discussion is one we can still have regardless of price disparity. If we bring the Turbo and Turbo S into the reckoning, I think they're going to have something to say about the projected victor in your predictions

The second and perhaps the most immediately fatal fly in the ointment, however, is that my Porsche dealer's loaners are, somewhat tragically, actually Hyundais and Camrys...
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  #166  
Old 08-13-2011, 06:10 PM
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Like I mentioned on different thread/forum, porsche owners won't be bothered being compared to bmw and bmw owners wont be bothered being compared to japanese/korean brand.

It is hilarious if one think bmw = porsche, same goes to bmw = japanese/korean brand.
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  #167  
Old 08-13-2011, 06:14 PM
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Well, you've thrown down the gauntlet there, Capo!

There are just two possible flys in the proverbial ointment.

The first is that we're still limiting the Panamera to the base and S/4S. That's logical on one level, as there's clearly more price parity. On another, though, if we're comparing the top of the range F10 it's entirely legitimate to bring the top of the range Panameras to the table too. The performance discussion is one we can still have regardless of price disparity. If we bring the Turbo and Turbo S into the reckoning, I think they're going to have something to say about the projected victor in your predictions

The second and perhaps the most immediately fatal fly in the ointment, however, is that my Porsche dealer's loaners are, somewhat tragically, actually Hyundais and Camrys...
Uh, the Dinan M5 will be the top of the F10 range, but logically it only competes with the PanaS in price.

Here are my predictions
Agree 100% with Capo's plus
M5 vs. PanaS: BMW wins handily.
M5 vs PanaT: Driver's choice
DM5 vs PanaTS: Driver's Choice
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  #168  
Old 08-13-2011, 06:28 PM
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Like I mentioned on different thread/forum, porsche owners won't be bothered being compared to bmw and bmw owners wont be bothered being compared to japanese/korean brand.

It is hilarious if one think bmw = porsche, same goes to bmw = japanese/korean brand.
From reading these posts, it certainly looks like Porsche owners are bothered being compared to BMW. Maybe it the VAG ownership fears slowly rising to the surface, but now that Porsche is making SUV's and psuedo-sedans, and there are cars like the Nissan GTR, Porsche's are already being compared to the Japanese/Korean brands. Welcome to the club.
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  #169  
Old 08-13-2011, 06:34 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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Uh, the Dinan M5 will be the top of the F10 range, but logically it only competes with the PanaS in price.

Here are my predictions
Agree 100% with Capo's plus
M5 vs. PanaS: BMW wins handily.
M5 vs PanaT: Driver's choice
DM5 vs PanaTS: Driver's Choice
The M5 isn't available, of course, so it's kind of moot at this point until it is.

Either way, the Turbo/Turbo S with the performance options (PDC, PTV, PCCB) ought to have the handling edge, will probably be lighter and it's broadly a wash on power unless you mod either car. It will as you say be a driver's choice. Still, it will be interesting to see what the F10 M5 brings, but that's likely more than a year away. And who know what Porsche may have up their sleeves by then?

Ultimately, I'm still thinking that this comparison is one that exists more in our minds and in our posts than in the cold hard light of the dealer's lot. There will be a few who seriously cross shop, but more often than not if the Panamera appeals to you, the F10 most probably doesn't. The converse is most probably true too.
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  #170  
Old 08-13-2011, 06:46 PM
swajames swajames is offline
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From reading these posts, it certainly looks like Porsche owners are bothered being compared to BMW. Maybe it the VAG ownership fears slowly rising to the surface, but now that Porsche is making SUV's and psuedo-sedans, and there are cars like the Nissan GTR, Porsche's are already being compared to the Japanese/Korean brands. Welcome to the club.
Not bothered about being compared at all - I'm picking holes in the weaker arguments, not the substance of the matter at hand. Although I do feel the discussion is more of an intellectual curiosity than one of marketplace relevance as these two cars are unlikely to be seriously cross-shopped by many.

As for VAG ownership, I'm all in. VAG has the most talented group of auto engineers of essentially any manufacturer or automotive family. Porsche engineering talent cross-fertilizing with the talent that created the Veyron, the Aventador, the Murcielago SV, the R8 V10 and countless other incredible vehicles, coupled with VAG's deep pockets and Piech's lunacy and willingness to shoot for the stars? Bring it on. Piech has the biggest balls in the business, and Porsche for him is the family jewel.

Porsche and VAG will grow to incredible heights together. Let's not forget that unison with VAG was always on Porsche's agenda. It didn't happen the way Porsche anticipated, but the net result is the same. And seeing as VAG has given Porsche responsibility for owning the sports car side of the business and the development of the next generation architecture, it seems VAG recognizes Porsche's talents in this respect. BMW makes excellent cars, but as good as they are you can't point to any BMW (nor many cars from others for that matter) that can come close to the heights that VAG has reached in recent years with its output. With cars like the Veyron, VAG solved perhaps the most complex engineering challenges yet faced. With that kind of talent now available to Porsche, they're going to go from strength to strength.
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  #171  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
From reading these posts, it certainly looks like Porsche owners are bothered being compared to BMW. Maybe it the VAG ownership fears slowly rising to the surface, but now that Porsche is making SUV's and psuedo-sedans, and there are cars like the Nissan GTR, Porsche's are already being compared to the Japanese/Korean brands. Welcome to the club.
I see more 'lower class' car being compared to higher one, not the other way around. It certainly a common human nature trying to justify their spending .

If it is up to me which car to get as originally asked by OP, I would chose to drive less expensive car that I could have owned rather than more expensive car but rented. If money is not an issue, it is no brainer decision.
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  #172  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:22 PM
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The M5 isn't available, of course, so it's kind of moot at this point until it is.

Either way, the Turbo/Turbo S with the performance options (PDC, PTV, PCCB) ought to have the handling edge, will probably be lighter and it's broadly a wash on power unless you mod either car. It will as you say be a driver's choice. Still, it will be interesting to see what the F10 M5 brings, but that's likely more than a year away. And who know what Porsche may have up their sleeves by then?
The 2012 M5 is only a few months away, but if you think you need to bring a Panamera Turbo S to a 550 fight, then thanks for the compliment.

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Ultimately, I'm still thinking that this comparison is one that exists more in our minds and in our posts than in the cold hard light of the dealer's lot. There will be a few who seriously cross shop, but more often than not if the Panamera appeals to you, the F10 most probably doesn't. The converse is most probably true too.
I guess I'm one of the rare individuals that seriously cross-shopped the Pana and the F10. I was at my local Porsche dealer checking the PanaT before he even had his official unveiling of the car.

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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Not bothered about being compared at all - I'm picking holes in the weaker arguments, not the substance of the matter at hand. Although I do feel the discussion is more of an intellectual curiosity than one of marketplace relevance as these two cars are unlikely to be seriously cross-shopped by many.

As for VAG ownership, I'm all in. VAG has the most talented group of auto engineers of essentially any manufacturer or automotive family. Porsche engineering talent cross-fertilizing with the talent that created the Veyron, the Aventador, the Murcielago SV, the R8 V10 and countless other incredible vehicles, coupled with VAG's deep pockets and Piech's lunacy and willingness to shoot for the stars? Bring it on. Piech has the biggest balls in the business, and Porsche for him is the family jewel.

Porsche and VAG will grow to incredible heights together. Let's not forget that unison with VAG was always on Porsche's agenda. It didn't happen the way Porsche anticipated, but the net result is the same. And seeing as VAG has given Porsche responsibility for owning the sports car side of the business and the development of the next generation architecture, it seems VAG recognizes Porsche's talents in this respect. BMW makes excellent cars, but as good as they are you can't point to any BMW (nor many cars from others for that matter) that can come close to the heights that VAG has reached in recent years with its output. With cars like the Veyron, VAG solved perhaps the most complex engineering challenges yet faced. With that kind of talent now available to Porsche, they're going to go from strength to strength.
I like your attitude towards VAG. The VAG the ownership will result in more platform sharing, decreased development costs, improved buying power, and as you said cross-fetilization, which are all good things, but I doubt many of the Porsche faithful will agree. Kudos to VAG's effort on their exotics.

As far as the VAG engineers are concerned, I studied with a few of them durung my graduate studies at Rheinisch-Westfälische Technische Hochschule (RWTH) in Aachen, Germany, and they were pretty sharp engineers. They drank a lot of beer and were convinced I would like it even more and more if I drank it every night with them. I'm not sure if I learned much of anything that semester.
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  #173  
Old 08-13-2011, 08:32 PM
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dalekressin dalekressin is offline
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I love the Porsche 911 turbo , GTS and GT3 but not the Panamera. I would suggest you look at the New M5 F10 even over the Panamera turbo.
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  #174  
Old 08-14-2011, 01:13 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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By the sounds of it speed is king to you guys and not the overall driving experience. I could have got a X5M for the money of my Cayenne, it would have definitely been quicker everywhere but it dildn't drive as well as my Porsche which is what matters in the end.

Speed is bragging right and for childish games at traffic lights. No doubt about it, if Porsche had a car in the A6/5/E class category it would be getting my dosh regardless if the others were quicker because the ownership experience would be far more rewarding.
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  #175  
Old 08-14-2011, 01:56 AM
bm323 bm323 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
I reckon that if you chose one car over another simply on price then the whole driving experience isn't the underlining factor that sways your decision, something at an enthusiast wouldn't do.
Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Well, you've thrown down the gauntlet there, Capo!

There are just two possible flys in the proverbial ointment.

The first is that we're still limiting the Panamera to the base and S/4S. That's logical on one level, as there's clearly more price parity. On another, though, if we're comparing the top of the range F10 it's entirely legitimate to bring the top of the range Panameras to the table too.
Coming back to topic ie the 550xi m sport vs the Pana 4s; OP, you've got an answer from the above Porsche club posters. The Pana 4s is not a comparison to the the 550i/550xi Get the Pana turbo if you choose the Pana, otherwise you'd be paying more for less
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