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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2015, 01:00 AM
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sixpot_simon sixpot_simon is offline
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temp gauge observations

Hi,
After hearing about the infamous buffering of the temperature gauge, I decided to do a little test out of nerdy curiosity. Here is the comparison between Ktemp and the gauge position as the car warms up.

- X axis is time in minutes
- Ktemp (blue line) is in degrees celcius
- dash (orange line) is 0% (dead cold) to 100% (12 o'clock position). It is a subjective measure of course, I estimated to the nearest 10%, so the line is a bit jumpy. I equated the end of the blue zone as 30% and the black mark as 60%



So while the dash showed the coolant was at operating temperature after about 9 minutes, it was still actually 15 degrees away.

Of course, the really useful info would be what happens on the hot half of the gauge. Perhaps one day I will be brave enough to disconnect fans, blank radiators, etc and test this!
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  #2  
Old 07-11-2015, 01:18 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpot_simon View Post
Here is the comparison between Ktemp and the gauge position as the car warms up.
Thanks for doing that KTMP vs GTMP (gauge temp) graphing effort for us, as that's an enlightening curve.
I know the E46 team has created a graphic that puts your type of results as shown below.

I wonder if we should/can graph the KTMP versus the gauge temp for the E39 like they did below.

See also:
- How to understand your cooling system temperature (1)
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Last edited by bluebee; 07-11-2015 at 08:37 AM.
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  #3  
Old 07-11-2015, 05:26 AM
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sixpot_simon sixpot_simon is offline
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That E46fanatics diagram is fantastic! It looks like the definitive answer on what our temp gauges are doing.

I'd expect E39s running the M54 engine to have the same behavior, which is confirmed by the values in the figure matching my results pretty closely.

Here is the E46fanatics thread: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1013600 I don't know much about coding, but it seems that PA Soft can also be used on the E39.
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  #4  
Old 07-11-2015, 07:30 AM
SeanPhang SeanPhang is offline
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Still, good work!
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06/10: rear shocks
08/11: cooling overhaul, O2 sensors
09/11: auto transmission drain & refill
09/12: alternator, VANOS seals, differential oil change
04/13: 2nd auto transmission drain & refill, changed fuel filter
12/13: OFH gasket
05/14: Aux. fan
09/14: CCV
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  #5  
Old 07-11-2015, 08:34 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpot_simon View Post
it seems that PA Soft can also be used on the E39.
For others to benefit who read this, what Sixpot Simon is talking about is that you can CHANGE the values that the gauge reads at, which is why there are two sets of numbers on the E46 gauge diagram.

The hex numbers are the coding values (although that's as far as I go since I have never coded).

The goal would be a procedure for the E39, that we know works, and a suggested set of values.

The procedure, and values, may be the same as the E46 (I don't know), but that's the goal nonetheless.
Quote:
*******>********>
Originally Posted by TerraPhantm pm w/ revisions for accuracy
This is pure conjecture of mine, but I think the format is:

- angle; temperature - angle; etc. (My edit: original message theorized angle/2; temperature)

So for 15C and below, the gauge is at the bottom. From 15C - 50C, it moves from 0 to 31; from 50 to 75C, it moves towards 90. From 75-115C it stays at that angle. From 115 to 124C it gets to 148, and then 125C onward it jumps to 164 (and turns on the light?). That seems to cover the range of motion of that gauge.

If I'm correct, you'd want to set to something like the following
0F 00 41 1F 5A 5A 64 5A 6E 94 73 A4

Which basically translates to:
15C - 0; 65C - 31; 90C - 90; 100C - 90; 110C - 148; 115C - 164

You might want to play with the values a bit, but I think 100 is about the max the M54 gets under normal operation. 115C triggering the light should give you enough time to shut down.

Code:

Factory 0x0F0: 0F 00 32 1F 4B 5A 73 5A 7C 94 7D A4 06 0E 1E 0F Revision #1 0x0F0: 0F 00 41 1F 5A 5A 64 5A 6E 94 73 A4 06 0E 1E 0F
Worked like a charm. I used the values shown above, but you may want to play with upper range values depending on your driving style and operating conditions. Here's a chart that can help you do it (Added on 11/23):

Code:

Decimal 20 25 30 35 40 45 50 55 60 65 70 75 80 85 90 95 100 105 110 115 120 125 130 135 140 HexaDecimal 14 19 1E 23 28 2D 32 37 3C 41 46 4B 50 55 5A 5F 64 69 6E 73 78 7D 82 87 8C
For example, if you want to eliminate the buffer altogether and make needle behavior in the upper range almost linear, here's another option (added on 11/23):
Code:

Factory 0x0F0: 0F 00 32 1F 4B 5A 73 5A 7C 94 7D A4 06 0E 1E 0F Revision #2 0x0F0: 0F 00 41 1F 5F 5A 69 7C 73 94 78 A4 06 0E 1E 0F
---------------Bottom Hash Mark---Upper Limit of Blue---2nd Hash Mark--12 o'clock---3rd Hash Mark---Lower Limit of Red---Red (Maxed Out/Light On):
Needle Angle-----------0----------------31-----------------55---------90----------124--------------148----------------164--------------
T(Factory 0x340)------0-15C------------ 50C----------------60C----75-115C-----120C----------------125C---------------143C-------------
T(Rev. 0x340)---------0-15C-------------65C----------------75C------90-100C---105C----------------110C---------------120C----------
T(Factory 0x0f0)------0-15C-------------50C----------------60C----75-115C-----120C----------------124C---------------125C-------------
T(Rev. #1 0x0f0)----- 0-15C-------------65C----------------75C------90-100C---105C----------------110C---------------115C----------
T(Rev. #2 0x0f0)------0-15C-------------65C-------------75C-----------95C--------105C-------------115C---------------120C-------------
T=Temperature

The upper range is, of course, not observed, but we can assume that the needle will move accordingly.

*Take a mental note of the corresponding needle positions and temperatures in the chart above so that you know how to read the reprogrammed gauge, which will now be much more sensitive in the upper range. This is merely a result of the "new normal" gauge behavior that this modification seeks to achieve. Though the baseline operating temperature is 95C, the electrically controlled t-stat allows normal operating temperature to fluctuate in the 75C-113C range depending on driver input and operating conditions. For more details on how it works, look here. As mentioned, the reprogrammed temp. gauge is advantageous because it will, among other things, help you recognize a soft failing and give you more time to shut off your engine if it overheats.

The following is a graphic of the factory vs. revision #1 temp. gauge, courtesy of SilberVogel. His original post can be found here. He has also attached a screenshot of his revision of offset 0x0F0 with PA Soft 1.4 in post #62 of this thread.



Here are step-by-step instructions with PA Soft 1.4
1) Click on IKE.
2) Click "Read EEPROM"
3) Hex editor functions are in the lower left hand corner. Click the floppy disk icon to save the factory loaded file onto your desktop as backup.
4) Make revisions from "factory" bolded values to "revised" bolded values shown above: Find the corresponding offset and move the cursor over the bytes to be revised. You can use arrow keys to move the cursor as well.
5) Click "Write EEPROM." Your cluster will flash and beep several times after completion -- and like magic, your gauge will now reflect more accurately what's happening under the hood.

To TerraPhantm, I send a big "thank you." If you're ever in Philly, I'll take you out for a beer, a cheesesteak and whatever else you want.

To make this even simpler, Solidjake made this video of himself reprogramming his 2002 330i:



Subsequently, Silbervogel improved the graphic with this incredibly useful tool for those of us who do not regularly work with hexadecimals but want to play around with the values; and even for those well versed, this visual representation of gauge behavior is invaluable. His contributions make moot my charts above, but I've not deleted them in order to show the evolution of this thread and contributions of others.

What follows are his words and can also be found in post #132 of this thread.

Silbervogel: I decided to take the temperature gauge graphic a bit further and made an interactive version.

It's a basic hex generator that translates the string from P.A. Soft and displays the corresponding temps. It will also convert the temperature ranges you give it back into hex and properly format it again.

Here's a screenshot of the program's interface:



It's a standalone application that runs on Windows and can be downloaded here:
http://www.bmwpnpc.com/silbervogel/E... Generator.exe

Find this to be a hugely beneficial modification and think it has a lot of value. For anyone who might feel it's beyond their abilities or comfort level, I hope this tool helps alleviate some concerns and makes the process even easier.
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Last edited by bluebee; 07-11-2015 at 08:36 AM.
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  #6  
Old 07-11-2015, 12:45 PM
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SilberVogel SilberVogel is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpot_simon View Post
That E46fanatics diagram is fantastic! It looks like the definitive answer on what our temp gauges are doing.

I'd expect E39s running the M54 engine to have the same behavior, which is confirmed by the values in the figure matching my results pretty closely.

Here is the E46fanatics thread: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1013600 I don't know much about coding, but it seems that PA Soft can also be used on the E39.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
The goal would be a procedure for the E39, that we know works, and a suggested set of values.

The procedure, and values, may be the same as the E46 (I don't know), but that's the goal nonetheless.
Glad to see the graphic and hex generator tool are still useful. If you guys/gals need an E39-specific graphic or custom tool like the hex generator, let me know.

Once you have a suggested set of values, and if the procedure is the same, I can either combine the E39 and E46 into one tool or make a completely separate one.

Lots of good info in that E46Fanatics thread by people more knowledgeable than myself, but hope it helps with dissecting the E39 buffer.
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  #7  
Old 07-12-2015, 12:15 AM
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sixpot_simon sixpot_simon is offline
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Thanks for the offer, SilberVogel.

Looks like a few people have been using PA Soft on the E39, so maybe we're not too far away:
http://www.m5board.com/vbulletin/e39...-0-review.html
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=379769
http://www.bimmerfest.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=677568
http://www.bimmerforums.com/forum/sh...-PA-Soft-1-4-0

*disclaimer: I know next to nothing about coding!*
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  #8  
Old 07-12-2015, 04:51 AM
Tutti57 Tutti57 is offline
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I believe I remember reading years ago that 260*f is the danger zone for warping aluminum heads.
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  #9  
Old 07-15-2015, 10:42 AM
Max_VQ Max_VQ is offline
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SixPot_Simon and BlueBee: Thank you, thank you for sharing this information.
I find this very interesting and will see if I can find the offset for the E39 MS 43.0 later today.

UPDATE: on my IKE (M35080-1, 6.907.015 hw:16, sw:17)
I think the the coolant gauge values are:
Code:
27 0F 5E 32 C9 4B C9 73 36 78 69 7D
It looks like the E39 has 6 gauge values vs the E46 with 8.

Here are the values:
0F = 15 degrees C, maybe end of blue line?
32 = 50 line left of centre?
4B = 75 (gauge strait up)
73 = 115 (gauge strait up, so our buffer is 75-115 deg C)
78 = 120 line right of centre?
7D = 125 start of red/over temp line?


Still looking into this and will update later today...

Last edited by Max_VQ; 07-15-2015 at 08:18 PM.
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  #10  
Old 07-15-2015, 03:04 PM
Max_VQ Max_VQ is offline
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Evening update:
It looks like the E39 stores the coolant gauge characteristics in TWO locations:

One at 0x0F4


and the other at 0x29C


Also noted here: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showpos...&postcount=232
Time to do more digging...
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  #11  
Old 07-15-2015, 04:03 PM
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sixpot_simon sixpot_simon is offline
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Thanks for the info, Max.

What software are you using? Is it able to reprogram these values? (sorry if these are silly questions, I know nothing about coding!)
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  #12  
Old 07-15-2015, 04:37 PM
Max_VQ Max_VQ is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sixpot_simon View Post
Thanks for the info, Max.

What software are you using? Is it able to reprogram these values? (sorry if these are silly questions, I know nothing about coding!)
Software: PA Soft / BMW Scanner and yes it can write changed values back to memory.
More PA Soft info here: http://forum.e46fanatics.com/showthread.php?t=1067835
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  #13  
Old 07-15-2015, 08:16 PM
Max_VQ Max_VQ is offline
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Location of the coolant curve has been verified by NCS Dummy (KMB_E39.C07) and starts at 0x0F4 and is 12 (0xC0) bytes long:
Code:
27 0F 5E 32 C9 4B C9 73 36 78 69 7D
There also is a 12 character string at 0x29C. I suspect BOTH sections must be changed.

I will be changing mine to:
Code:
27 0F 5E 32 C9 55 C9 5F 36 6E 69 7D
This will change the mid-point from: 75-115 deg C to 85-95 and next mark from 120 to 110

From NCS Dummy:

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