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F30 / F31 / F32 / F33 (2012 - current)
The sixth generation 3 series, chassis code F30. 2013 model year 328i and 335i sedans now in production. Read the F30 frequently asked question thread for all your basic question and dive into all the details in the ultimate F30 information thread.

View Poll Results: Does the 4-cylinder turbo make it more or less likely you will buy a 328i?
The 4-cylinder makes it more likely I will buy a 328i 59 39.33%
The 4-cylinder makes it less likely I will buy a 328i 62 41.33%
I'm not sure 29 19.33%
Voters: 150. You may not vote on this poll

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  #101  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:15 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blueguydotcom View Post
What? The n54 was a disaster. Hpfp mean anything to you?
Not at all. BMW sold exactly one buttload of cars with the N54 in them. I am sure they would do it again if given the choice.

IMO, they have stood behind the HPFP issue like they should, and that problem would not keep me from buying a BMW with an N54 or N55 in it.
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  #102  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Robert A View Post
Same hp as before, no apparent bump in efficiency, marginal improvement in torque, no apparent long run cost benefit. I'm not seeing the value proposition.
BMW is showing a half second improvement in 0-60 between the 528 cars with the inline 6 and the turbo 4. A half second.

Also, for those so inclined, the turbo 4 will be much more tuneable than the NA 6.

I just read a review of the Z4 with this engine. According to Inside Line, it's plenty smooth enough for 99% of the people who will drive it.
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  #103  
Old 09-22-2011, 08:57 AM
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Here's that InsideLine Z4 review.

Interesting excerpts:

"although the N20 (its internal code name) doesn't pack the supple character of an inline-6, the new turbo-4 packs something the normally aspirated engine doesn't personality."

"But torque is what the N20 is really all about, generating 258 pound-feet from 1,250-4,800 rpm. The old inline-6? Just 220 lb-ft at 2,600. And you feel that torque hit."

"having an actual spike of motive force makes this engine more exciting to drive versus the nondescript delivery of the N52's silky-smooth inline-6 power."

"Our seat-of-the-pants impression tells us the Z4 with the turbo-4 has a significantly stronger midrange than the outgoing six."

"Yes, it is a lot of money for a four-cylinder. It's also a lot of money for a Z4. But the N20 is the way of the future, an enthusiast's engine that also makes sense from an efficiency standpoint. So much sense, that BMW will plop it into the 2012 528i when that car starts production in September, surely followed by the X3 and 3 Series soon after. We expect few will miss the six it replaced."


The bottom line is that small-displacement turbocharged engines are happening whether we like them or not. BMW knows what they are up against with this change, and they are going to spend a lot of money to ensure their products are differentiated.

I look forward to seeing how this goes; there is some very exciting stuff happening if you keep an open mind.
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  #104  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:03 AM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
IMO, they have stood behind the HPFP issue like they should, and that problem would not keep me from buying a BMW with an N54 or N55 in it.
You mean the way the handled things from the beginning by denying the problem? Or just the fact that they eventually (after several years!) agreed that it was their problem after customers had experienced lots of pain?

If you think it is acceptable to put customers through the kind of pain that they just went through with the N54 while denying it was a problem at their end, then all I can say is that this is the best example of true, unconditional love.
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  #105  
Old 09-22-2011, 10:08 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
You mean the way the handled things from the beginning by denying the problem? Or just the fact that they eventually (after several years!) agreed that it was their problem after customers had experienced lots of pain?

If you think it is acceptable to put customers through the kind of pain that they just went through with the N54 while denying it was a problem at their end, then all I can say is that this is the best example of true, unconditional love.
I mean by extending the HPFP warranty to 10 years/120K miles. How would you construe that as "denying it was a problem at their end?"
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  #106  
Old 09-22-2011, 11:52 AM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
I mean by extending the HPFP warranty to 10 years/120K miles. How would you construe that as "denying it was a problem at their end?"
IIRC, it took them 3 years to get there. If I were an owner experiencing multiple failures under warranty, I would probably have dumped the car following the warranty. I am the kind that drives more than 50K miles in 3 years.
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  #107  
Old 09-22-2011, 12:39 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
IIRC, it took them 3 years to get there. If I were an owner experiencing multiple failures under warranty, I would probably have dumped the car following the warranty. I am the kind that drives more than 50K miles in 3 years.
Clearly, nothing I could say here would change your mind about this. Objectively, I think that very few people were ever out of warranty on that problem, and I don't have any data on how many people experienced multiple failures on the same car. It seems to me that BMW has done what could reasonably have been expected of them.
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  #108  
Old 09-22-2011, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by E90Alan View Post
Quote from here. I obviously have not driven the car, so cannot comment on NVH issues... but these torque numbers at low RPM will likely make a big difference in drivability. A 30% torque increase AND at much lower RPM will make a big difference.

In normal driving around town or on a freeway ramp when you want to accelerate from say 35MPH to 65MPH at a moderate rate, 260 lb-ft of torque at 1,250 RPM should make that happen with much less shifting and engine revving than before leading to a more pleasant driving experience.
A lot of assumptions here.

First, the I6 240HP like in the 528i didn't need any improvement in driveability for its market. 230lbs @ 2600rpm is great.

People make the mistake that because the max of torque being at 1250rpm, just touching the throttle it will fly. It doesn't work this way.

Those figures are done on test benches with stable conditions.

When you mash the throttle, turbo has to spool and eventually catch up.... it is not even lag we are talking about.

Best example is the VW/Audi 1.8T. Its max torque was sub 2000rpm (1600-1700 in some version), but this engine never came alive before 3000-3500rpm.

Also, when you check data from Car&Driver, the gap between 0-60mph and 5-60mph is ALWAYS more important in 4-cyl. turbo than 6 cyl. for the reason I explained. 528i N20 0-60mph will be quicker than the 528i N52, but more important, the 5-60 of both will be about the same, within a tick or two.

I drove a X1 N20 and a X3 N52. No way that it pulls hard at 1250rpm in sudden acceleration. It comes alive much later and it not that different from the N52. Sorry but the N20 felt like cr*p, sounded like a Civic while the N52 was much more appropriate in feel for such expensive cars.

I don't see the point of this N20. Ridiculous. I hope that the 528i N20 meets its Waterloo (i.e. poor sales).
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  #109  
Old 09-22-2011, 04:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
A lot of assumptions here.

First, the I6 240HP like in the 528i didn't need any improvement in driveability for its market. 230lbs @ 2600rpm is great.

People make the mistake that because the max of torque being at 1250rpm, just touching the throttle it will fly. It doesn't work this way.

Those figures are done on test benches with stable conditions.

When you mash the throttle, turbo has to spool and eventually catch up.... it is not even lag we are talking about.

Best example is the VW/Audi 1.8T. Its max torque was sub 2000rpm (1600-1700 in some version), but this engine never came alive before 3000-3500rpm.

Also, when you check data from Car&Driver, the gap between 0-60mph and 5-60mph is ALWAYS more important in 4-cyl. turbo than 6 cyl. for the reason I explained. 528i N20 0-60mph will be quicker than the 528i N52, but more important, the 5-60 of both will be about the same, within a tick or two.

I drove a X1 N20 and a X3 N52. No way that it pulls hard at 1250rpm in sudden acceleration. It comes alive much later and it not that different from the N52. Sorry but the N20 felt like cr*p, sounded like a Civic while the N52 was much more appropriate in feel for such expensive cars.

I don't see the point of this N20. Ridiculous. I hope that the 528i N20 meets its Waterloo (i.e. poor sales).
If you don't see the point of the N20, you are just ignoring the facts because you don't like them.
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  #110  
Old 09-22-2011, 05:07 PM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
If you don't see the point of the N20, you are just ignoring the facts because you don't like them.
No I am observing them and I don't like them. I drove the N20 mind you.

That it doesn't get better mileage in the 528i is not acceptable.
That it sounds like a Civic is not acceptable (unless it sounds more like a Z4 than a X1).

The N20 has no compelling appeal.
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  #111  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
No I am observing them and I don't like them. I drove the N20 mind you.

That it doesn't get better mileage in the 528i is not acceptable.
That it sounds like a Civic is not acceptable (unless it sounds more like a Z4 than a X1).

The N20 has no compelling appeal.
What's your source for that mileage assertion? BMW says that "combined improvements are said to deliver up to 15 percent better fuel efficiency" compared to the 2011 528 with the inline 6.

BMW has to adhere to the CAFE guidelines. They feel that it isn't possible to do that with the naturally aspirated inline 6. That alone is the "point of the N20".

The last time something like this happened in the industry, the auto makers responded with offerings like the Mustang II and a 164 horsepower Corvette.

This time, BMW has provided - in the initial year of the offering - an engine with equal horsepower, more torque, better acceleration, and a 15-20% improvement in mileage depending on the model.

I've not driven the X1, so you have me at a disadvantage there. The automotive press' initial reviews of the engine are positive. I think that you are really a person who loves BMW inline 6 engines, and there are many reasons to love them indeed - and to lament their passing.

Still, I assert that the 4 cylinder entry level engine is going to happen - nothing we can do about it - so I choose to be thankful that BMW has decided to invest properly in delivering a high performance enthusiast engine option on that platform rather than dumping another 318ti on us.
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  #112  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by WJGreer View Post
What's your source for that mileage assertion? BMW says that "combined improvements are said to deliver up to 15 percent better fuel efficiency" compared to the 2011 528 with the inline 6.

BMW has to adhere to the CAFE guidelines. They feel that it isn't possible to do that with the naturally aspirated inline 6. That alone is the "point of the N20".
As it should, but it doesn't.

Here we go;
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

22/32mpg
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  #113  
Old 09-22-2011, 06:57 PM
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As it should, but it doesn't.

Here we go;
http://www.bmwusa.com/Standard/Conte...fications.aspx

22/32mpg
Yep, that is the same. I agree, unexpected. The InsideLine review says that "final EPA results are pending". So possibly BMW still has the mileage figures from the old engine on the site. Everything I've read BMW say about the engine points to a mileage improvement.
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  #114  
Old 09-23-2011, 09:02 AM
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I would like to see N20 in 1 Series or MINI
3/5 Series just too heavy
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  #115  
Old 09-23-2011, 11:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
I don't see the point of this N20. Ridiculous. I hope that the 528i N20 meets its Waterloo (i.e. poor sales).
You need to go back and reread what I said. I am not talking about wide open throttle driving. I am talking about moderate throttle during normal driving. More torque at lower RPM equals lower revs and less downshifting to accomplish the task, hence better drivability.

If these same torque/HP numbers were achieved with an inline six, I suspect we would not be having this discussion. As I mentioned, my only concern is NVH.
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  #116  
Old 09-23-2011, 12:20 PM
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I would like to see N20 in 1 Series or MINI
3/5 Series just too heavy
I agree, I am still at awe from driving a mini cooper s with the 170hp engine. I think that the N20 might be a bit too much for it though.
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  #117  
Old 09-23-2011, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by E90Alan View Post
You need to go back and reread what I said. I am not talking about wide open throttle driving. I am talking about moderate throttle during normal driving. More torque at lower RPM equals lower revs and less downshifting to accomplish the task, hence better drivability.

If these same torque/HP numbers were achieved with an inline six, I suspect we would not be having this discussion. As I mentioned, my only concern is NVH.
That's theory. Here is the real world.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...ive/index.html

Quote:
Originally Posted by Automobile Mag
the [2012] 528i feels a tad lazy around town.
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  #118  
Old 09-24-2011, 08:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
That's theory. Here is the real world.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...ive/index.html
That seems like an outstanding review to me, with only mild qualifications about slight NVH at high RPMs - and nobody expected the N20 to be as smooth as the inline 6.

I still say that given the direction the auto industry has taken, the N20 is a great offering.

The mileage figures on the BMW website are a mystery, as every other story I've read indicates substantial improvement.
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  #119  
Old 09-24-2011, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
That's theory. Here is the real world.

http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews...ive/index.html
Also from the article...

Quote:
With significantly more torque (over a far larger rev area) and no real loss of refinement in driveability, we're easily sold on the N20-powered F10 5-series.
Read the whole comment you pasted in context... they are saying throttle tip in and transmission downshifts are slow causing the "lazy" feeling. I don't see them or anybody else saying this N20 car drives slower or "lazier" in any way compared to the current NA six.

There is a long thread about this same problem with the current 5-series.

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  #120  
Old 09-24-2011, 12:52 PM
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Read the whole comment you pasted in context... they are saying throttle tip in and transmission downshifts are slow causing the "lazy" feeling. I don't see them or anybody else saying this N20 car drives slower or "lazier" in any way compared to the current NA six.
It is neither the bonanza rocket that some would like it to be. I am willing to bet that both 5-60mph will be the same at about 7s.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test

The N20 doesn't transform in something "better"; a very good 4-cyl. will never match the refinement, sound and immediacy of a 6. Specially in a 50K$ luxury vehicle.
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  #121  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:52 PM
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22/32mpg
Not surprised, when C&D compared the 328i and A4, they realized A4 with its 2.0T had much worse MPG.
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  #122  
Old 09-25-2011, 09:16 PM
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Not surprised, when C&D compared the 328i and A4, they realized A4 with its 2.0T had much worse MPG.
If we assume the current MPG numbers on the BMW website are correct, then what is the reason for ditching the NA I-6? Is it more expensive to build? Or is BMW taxed by displacement? A combination of such factors?
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  #123  
Old 09-25-2011, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
If we assume the current MPG numbers on the BMW website are correct, then what is the reason for ditching the NA I-6? Is it more expensive to build? Or is BMW taxed by displacement? A combination of such factors?
I think high rev NA engines go hand in hand with MT, if one goes, so does the other.
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  #124  
Old 09-26-2011, 07:36 AM
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Originally Posted by mr_clueless View Post
If we assume the current MPG numbers on the BMW website are correct, then what is the reason for ditching the NA I-6? Is it more expensive to build? Or is BMW taxed by displacement? A combination of such factors?
If the MPG numbers on the BMW website are correct, the N20 engine was a silly exercise, as Saintor asserts. The N20 was entirely about adhering to CAFE regulations. Up until I saw the BMW website numbers, every press release and piece of earned media coverage said that BMW was targeting a 15 to 20% improvement in fuel economy with that engine, depending on the model application.

Let's see how the mileage numbers come together in the field.
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  #125  
Old 09-26-2011, 10:07 AM
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Originally Posted by Saintor View Post
It is neither the bonanza rocket that some would like it to be. I am willing to bet that both 5-60mph will be the same at about 7s.
http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...take_road_test
The test you linked shows 0-60 for the 6 cylinder 528i at 6.4. Exactly how would the new car with more torque and a less demanding (5-60) test take seven seconds? BMW has already said to expect a lower 0-60.
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