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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 08-24-2011, 03:52 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is online now
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F10 And The Psychology Of BMW Model Introduction/Acceptance...

....It seems that each new iteration of BMW that's introduced into the marketplace is received with a chorus of contempt and derision. "Too radical," "too bland," "not BMW-enough," "steering is too light/too heavy," "not enough low end torque," "not enough high end HP," "I yearn for my (fill in the blank)," etc.

And heaven help those poor souls who don't get the "sport/sport plus/super sport/M-sport/dynamic-sport-super-handling/go cart/zoom-zoom" options(s). Those poor unfortunates will never know the true joy of BMW-ness. Heck, one wonders why they didn't just save themselves some money and go and buy a Camry instead of a BMW.

It seems that about the end of the model's run something quite magical happens. The "new" design seems to gain some traction with the BMW faithful and starts to gain acceptance thereafter being warmly embraced for it's "BMW-ness."

The F10 seems well on the road to this time honored tradition and should be viewed as a hallowed and classic BMW design of automotive brilliance within the next 12-24 months. I figure that by the time this model is due to be replaced, in about five years, it'll have a devoted flock of cult-like worshippers.

I've seen this trend in the offerings from other car manufacturers but never so clearly as in the BMW faithful.

Just sayin'....
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:27 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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These are my thoughts as an architect. The design of the F10 is very conservative. While it is incredibly, well executed and beautifully detailed , the F10 is evolutionary and not innovative in terns of design. Classic designs are fresh, innovative, and are perceived as a water mark. The F10 does not hit this high level which would put it in the elite classic category. It is a fine car none the less.
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:32 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is online now
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
These are my thoughts as an architect. The design of the F10 is very conservative. While it is incredibly, well executed and beautifully detailed , the F10 is evolutionary and not innovative in terns of design. Classic designs are fresh, innovative, and are perceived as a water mark. The F10 does not hit this high level which would put it in the elite classic category. It is a fine car none the less.
Just wait until the G5 (or whatever it'll be called in five years) is introduced.

You and others will be waxing nostalgic over the "clean, classic" lines of the F10.

Conservative evolution is what establishes and maintains a prestige marque. Bold innovation is often not received with open arms. Just look at the current 4th generation TL.
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:57 AM
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the simple answer is this: by the end of the model's itteration, most of those who hated on it in the beginning own one. there are some outliers like Solstice, who owned and left the fold. but those passionate about their BMWs think that their car is the best. it's just that more of them own by the end of the model's life.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
These are my thoughts as an architect. The design of the F10 is very conservative. While it is incredibly, well executed and beautifully detailed , the F10 is evolutionary and not innovative in terns of design. Classic designs are fresh, innovative, and are perceived as a water mark. The F10 does not hit this high level which would put it in the elite classic category. It is a fine car none the less.
Harumph! And you think the E60 is an elite classic?? They're starting to look old pretty fast, IMO. E39?

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Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
Conservative evolution is what establishes and maintains a prestige marque. Bold innovation is often not received with open arms. Just look at the current 4th generation TL.
+1. The F10 is a classic BMW design with many modernistic highlights. Acura totally lost their way with the TL. It will take years to repair the damage, and who knows what the next generation will look like? I'm almost afraid to look.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:41 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by pharding View Post
These are my thoughts as an architect. The design of the F10 is very conservative. While it is incredibly, well executed and beautifully detailed , the F10 is evolutionary and not innovative in terns of design. Classic designs are fresh, innovative, and are perceived as a water mark. The F10 does not hit this high level which would put it in the elite classic category. It is a fine car none the less.
I have heard this from several people on this board. Can you please explain what you mean by "very conservative"? What could they have done to make this car look more aggressive than it is now? The car looks like a shark ready to pounce. I have never seen a modern mainstream vehicle where the hood/grill is proud of the bumper. There is no spot on the car that I look at and say "wow that looks bad". The car is chizeled and clean. What would you have preferred???
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Old 08-24-2011, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
I have heard this from several people on this board. Can you please explain what you mean by "very conservative"? What could they have done to make this car look more aggressive than it is now? The car looks like a shark ready to pounce. I have never seen a modern mainstream vehicle where the hood/grill is proud of the bumper. There is no spot on the car that I look at and say "wow that looks bad". The car is chizeled and clean. What would you have preferred???
I guess they could have mounted a machine gun on one side and a bazooka on the other.

Now that would be seriously bad-ass.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:14 AM
ianbjor ianbjor is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
I have heard this from several people on this board. Can you please explain what you mean by "very conservative"? What could they have done to make this car look more aggressive than it is now? The car looks like a shark ready to pounce. I have never seen a modern mainstream vehicle where the hood/grill is proud of the bumper. There is no spot on the car that I look at and say "wow that looks bad". The car is chizeled and clean. What would you have preferred???
I can't speak for pharding, but many complaints about the F10 being conservative seem to fall into 2 categories:

* The F10 (and F01) don't really push design boundaries. The E65 (previous gen 7) was a "radical" design and had a lot of haters, but it was truly visionary. Look how many cars copied its design elements - including the dreaded "bangle butt". I think that the E60 is a beautiful design, and stood on its own in the BMW lineup. BMW's designers haven't lost their edge in turning out cutting edge design - look at the current E89 (Z4).

* The 3/5/7 are all very similar in appearance and have lost their individuality. The F01 / F10 are easy to confuse in passing. A lot of their design elements clearly had their genesis on the current E90. It will be interesting to see what the final F30 looks like, but I'd wager that it's just going to be a shorter "sausage".


Personally, I think that the F10 is a really beautiful car (especially with the M-sport additions). My personal complains all center around the front end of the car: I do not love the nearly vertical grille (although I'm getting used to it). The junction between the hood and the front bumper could have been executed better - it feels weird to have the hood end, and then have another 3 inches of "hood" coming from the bumper.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:19 AM
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E60 was such an ugly car, that after 4 consecutive BMWs I left the brand to get something less ugly. F10 brought me back.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:36 AM
pharding pharding is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Emilner View Post
I have heard this from several people on this board. Can you please explain what you mean by "very conservative"? What could they have done to make this car look more aggressive than it is now? The car looks like a shark ready to pounce. I have never seen a modern mainstream vehicle where the hood/grill is proud of the bumper. There is no spot on the car that I look at and say "wow that looks bad". The car is chizeled and clean. What would you have preferred???
It just does not break new ground. It is very evolutionary. I am not saying that is not well done. It is well done, however it is clearly not in the category of 1951 Porsche 356, 1954 MB Gull Wing 300 SL, 1955 BMW 507, 1961 Lincoln Continental Mark 3, 1961 Jaguar XK E, 1962 Maserati 3500, 1963 Porsche 911, 1972 BMW 5er, 2004 MB CLS, just to name a few that come to mind. I personally believe that with time people will add the 2004 BMW 5er to the list. It broke new ground and its innovative aesthetic was copied every major automobile manufacturer.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
E60 was such an ugly car, that after 4 consecutive BMWs I left the brand to get something less ugly. F10 brought me back.
For me, after four consecutive Fives (one E34, three E39s), I switched to the Three. The F10 brought me back to the Five.
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Old 08-24-2011, 08:53 AM
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When I came back to bimmerfest a few months ago after a half-decade's absence, I was surprised to hear the E46 described as "legendary" and "vaunted" and with similar words. What happened to all the haters? Back in the day, 2001 or so, it was controversial and itself considered "Bangelized" in it's mid-cycle refresh guise ("How the hell could they DO that to the front lights? Upward sloping corners???") and there was a hard core of old 3-series owners that would inhabit the E46 board and simply not go away, trashing the car while the rest of us were trying to talk about owning and enjoying it.

I find the F10 beautiful and am convinced it will be well-loved by most in due time.
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Old 08-24-2011, 09:32 AM
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It is already well loved. Sales are awesome. With any complex and sophisticated product there will be some complaints.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
Harumph! And you think the E60 is an elite classic?? They're starting to look old pretty fast, IMO. E39?
The E60 was revolutionary and controversial when new. I didn't like it at first, but it grew on me a lot and I still think it looks fresh and modern today. The difference between the F10 and E60 is not nearly as much as it is between the E60 and E39 imho. Yes, the E39 does look quite dated, but I'd hardly describe the E60 as being that way today.

The most controversial thing about the F10 is that many are saying it doesn't drive or steer or have the classical and oh-so-important "feel" that BMWs have had, and less so on the design itself.

BTW I do consider the E39 to be "the classic" reference design for the 5-series and what I think it "should be" despite its now dated appearance. An agile "sports sedan" that has enough room to take your family around, yet still small enough to have fun with on the weekends. The F10, now based off of the 7-series platform is really too big for that I think. Even the E60 got pretty big, but at least it still had that classic "BMW feel" that many have said is no longer present in the F10. With model size bloat, I think the 5er has gotten to be too big. I'll be looking at the new F30 3er as a true E39 replacement. JM2C.
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:56 AM
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the simple answer is this: by the end of the model's itteration, most of those who hated on it in the beginning own one.
No they just go buy something else....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
E60 was such an ugly car, that after 4 consecutive BMWs I left the brand to get something less ugly. F10 brought me back.
...........
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Old 08-24-2011, 11:58 AM
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There's a line between something that takes getting used to, and something that is ugly/unforgivable in my book.

The E65 7er, E60 5er, and the current 3er didn't look good to me when they came out and I still don't like them today. The E61 5er touring looked pretty decent but the sedan was just oddly shaped in many ways. The 3er is bland, bloated, and basically represents 4 metres of automotive wallpaper paste.

The new F20 1er falls under "I'll get used to it". Already I'm starting to like the edgy design. And unlike many folks, I like the E87 1er hatch (some say it looks like a breadbox) for what it is.

The F10 and F07 looked good to my eyes when it came out and will continue to do so. And the E38 and E39 are classics in my book, both being the most handsome 5er and 7er in my opinion.
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Old 08-24-2011, 12:36 PM
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There's a line between something that takes getting used to, and something that is ugly/unforgivable in my book.

The E65 7er, E60 5er, and the current 3er didn't look good to me when they came out and I still don't like them today. The E61 5er touring looked pretty decent but the sedan was just oddly shaped in many ways. The 3er is bland, bloated, and basically represents 4 metres of automotive wallpaper paste.

The new F20 1er falls under "I'll get used to it". Already I'm starting to like the edgy design. And unlike many folks, I like the E87 1er hatch (some say it looks like a breadbox) for what it is.

The F10 and F07 looked good to my eyes when it came out and will continue to do so. And the E38 and E39 are classics in my book, both being the most handsome 5er and 7er in my opinion.
I kind of agree with most of this, but are also saying the E92 is not beautiful?
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Old 08-24-2011, 01:27 PM
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I have a soft spot for the E60 design since though not being a classic beauty it is IMO probably the sportiest looking sedan BMW ever built. It's geometry and angular lines that gives it an athletic lowslung,wide, tight and almost square presence tells the story of the ultimate driving machine even before you enter it. 18 inch or bigger wheels is required though otherwise the muscular lines turns into a heavy astethic mess. The F10 on the other hand ticks the right boxes as a beautiful, classy and understated executive sedan.
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Old 08-24-2011, 02:43 PM
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It's threads like this one that have destroyed decent conversation down at the corner tavern. I need a 12-year-old scotch (double) so I can read some more. . . .
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Old 08-24-2011, 02:49 PM
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It's threads like this one that have destroyed decent conversation down at the corner tavern. I need a 12-year-old scotch (double) so I can read some more. . . .
Happy to be of service!
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:27 PM
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I kind of agree with most of this, but are also saying the E92 is not beautiful?
Don't care for the E92 either. Looks too darn big.
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:46 PM
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It's threads like this one that have destroyed decent conversation down at the corner tavern. I need a 12-year-old scotch (double) so I can read some more. . . .
You my friend are very funny ....very well put...this has to be the best reply i've seen in quite some time
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Old 08-24-2011, 05:56 PM
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Regarding the TL - save for the parrot like grille (which has since been partially remedied) I think the TL is a sharp looking car. It does teeter on the brink of too over the top, but its a bold design that flows very well from front to back. This is what Japanese cars are all about.

On topic (and opposite the Japanese design mantra) - BMW is not about envelope pushing design or over the top aesthetics. It should be modern, striking and elegant as the E39 was and F10 is. While I'm a fan of the E60, it got away from BMW's core and alienated a lot of people. My favorite car I ever owned was my '08 550i M Sport. That car was such an all-arounder.
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:01 PM
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Old 08-24-2011, 06:04 PM
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Originally Posted by pharding View Post
These are my thoughts as an architect. The design of the F10 is very conservative. While it is incredibly, well executed and beautifully detailed , the F10 is evolutionary and not innovative in terns of design. Classic designs are fresh, innovative, and are perceived as a water mark. The F10 does not hit this high level which would put it in the elite classic category. It is a fine car none the less.
+1 No - those are my thoughts as an artist - we all know architects steal jus' sayin'
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