Welcome to Bimmerfest -- The #1 Online Community for BMW related information! Please enjoy the discussion forums below and share your experiences with the 200,000 current, new and past BMW owners. The forums are broken out by car model and into other special interest sections such as BMW European Delivery and a special forum to voice your questions to the many BMW dealers on the site to assist our members!

Please follow the links below to help get you started!

Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)

E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #101  
Old 09-01-2011, 06:55 AM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I'm glad you hold me in such high esteem as to warrant a charge of false advertising against a major corporation merely because of my opinion. However my opinion doesn't equate to false advertising on the behalf of BMW and their CPO program.
If your such opinion does not negatively impact the manufacture and its dealers, then your other opinions defending them should not be taken seriously either, can't have it both ways.

Now you understand why I recommend the OP to seek professional advice. You just never know what kind of case does he have that may help him resolve it quickly.

In front of a jury, if one of the most stunch BMW supporters among them must admit the CPO has little value, it is unlikely this complaint will ever face trial, rather the parties will quickly reach a solution in the OP's favor. That is just one way how an attorney might assess the situation and decide whether to help or not.
Reply With Quote
  #102  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:02 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
If your such opinion does not negatively impact the manufacture and its dealers, then your other opinions defending them should not be taken seriously either, can't have it both ways.
Yes, I can have it both ways because there are different levels of degree. Saying "I don't place much value in BMW's CPO program." doesn't mean they're engaging in false advertising.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
Now you understand why I recommend the OP to seek professional advice. You just never know what kind of case does he have that may help him resolve it quickly.
I understand you're unwilling to accept the dealer may not have any culpability in this instance. That this isn't just an unfortunate situation for the OP and someone has to be responsible.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
In front of a jury, if one of the most stunch BMW supporters among them must admit the CPO has little value, it is unlikely this complaint will ever face trial, rather the parties will quickly reach a solution in the OP's favor. That is just one way how an attorney might assess the situation and decide whether to help or not.
I'm not a staunch BMW supporter. And what is it with people on this forum and jury trials? You all seem sue happy.
Reply With Quote
  #103  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:07 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
There is little question the damage was not caused during his trip back to MN, the damage was on the vehicle when he purchased it. CPO which should be a thorough examination of the car failed to identify the issue. And maybe that is okay as I doubt they tear apart and inspect every nook and cranny. But the bottom line is the OP purchased a car with hidden damage, and the $64,000 question is who is liable? Buyer beware? Is it worth $2000 to BMW to make sure they do not receive negative PR. Seems to me the correct course of action is to confirm the damage with an indy shop, and then seek legal advice if no one is willing to work with him from BMW. My guess is a good attorney could make a decision within 10 minutes as to what type of case the OP has. Personally if I were BMW, I would make this right as there is little doubt the vehicle had undisclosed hidden damage when it was sold.
Reply With Quote
  #104  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:34 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
There is little question the damage was not caused during his trip back to MN, the damage was on the vehicle when he purchased it. CPO which should be a thorough examination of the car failed to identify the issue. And maybe that is okay as I doubt they tear apart and inspect every nook and cranny. But the bottom line is the OP purchased a car with hidden damage, and the $64,000 question is who is liable? Buyer beware? Is it worth $2000 to BMW to make sure they do not receive negative PR. Seems to me the correct course of action is to confirm the damage with an indy shop, and then seek legal advice if no one is willing to work with him from BMW. My guess is a good attorney could make a decision within 10 minutes as to what type of case the OP has. Personally if I were BMW, I would make this right as there is little doubt the vehicle had undisclosed hidden damage when it was sold.
Undisclosed would imply the selling dealer was aware of the damage. Many here feel the selling dealer knew or should have known about this damage. My question is: Why? Because it underwent CPO? What part of the CPO checklist would reveal this damage (I asked this before and have not yet received an answer)? The visual inspection? I looked at my car and couldn't see the wires in question. I assume, as indicated in the service work order, they're hidden underneath the liner.

The OP said he had contact with the previous owner who stated there was nothing wrong with the car. Obviously there was damage...he just wasn't aware of it.

And finally why do people feel the OP is owed any form of goodwill repair for damage caused by mice? I can understand if it were a worn or failed part. But the damage is the result of something completely outside of BMW's control. If mice would have chewed up these wires six months from purchase would people expect a goodwill repair from BMW?
Reply With Quote
  #105  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:35 AM
noho335 noho335 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 372
Mein Auto: 2011 MINI S
If a Certified Pre-Owned BMW doesn't protect against a situation like this it's meaningless. It's just another used car.
Reply With Quote
  #106  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:42 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by noho335 View Post
If a Certified Pre-Owned BMW doesn't protect against a situation like this it's meaningless. It's just another used car.
Again I ask: Which part of the CPO inspection should have caught this? The inspection checklist is readily available from BMW's web site. Can you please point out the specific item on that list?

TIA

Last edited by sunny5280; 09-01-2011 at 07:46 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #107  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:53 AM
gEEkChris gEEkChris is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Broomfield, CO
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Posts: 653
Mein Auto: 2012 X3 35i
This just seems to be one of those no win situations where buying a used car is a bit of a cr@p shoot. It definitely gives me pause about buying used, but then again even if the OP pays the 2K and everything is fine after that he still probably comes out ahead in the long run. It is an unfortunate situation all around.
Reply With Quote
  #108  
Old 09-01-2011, 07:54 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
ok, fine. Let's say the dealer was unaware of any damage. Drop the word undisclosed, use whatever adjective you want....geesh. BUT that does not mean the damage was not there when the car was sold. IMHO, if the damage was already present at the time of sale, BMW should make it right. If the damage happened while in possession of the OP, the OP is on the hook. A good dealership would repair this damage as it was, without a doubt, sold that way. Do they legally have to, not for me to decide as I am no expert. But again, I would if I were the dealer. If someone wants to debate this issue and suggest the mice boarded the car while in transit and started chomping on the wires, please start a different thread so that can be ignored.
Reply With Quote
  #109  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:00 AM
need4speed's Avatar
need4speed need4speed is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: South Carolina
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 2,348
Mein Auto: 09 335Cabrio zsp/11 335d
I agree that the CPO inspection may not have been able to catch the mouse chewed wires as part of it's normal inspection. I think the area of interest should be how many times was the car brought in for this problem before/as it was being CPOed. What you would want is a paper trail that shows the dealer knew or should have known and investigated a long standing issue, but instead ignored it. It is possible that the OP was the first one to get a thrown code for this issue, but I doubt it. Another thing I agree an attorney is not likely to want this case. In some states you don't need an attorney for small claims court, and juries HATE car dealerships. N4S
Reply With Quote
  #110  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:04 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
ok, fine. Let's say the dealer was unaware of any damage. Drop the word undisclosed, use whatever adjective you want....geesh. BUT that does not mean the damage was not there when the car was sold.
It's my opinion it was there. I think the selling dealers explanation of a mouse getting into the vehicle post sale is ridiculous.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
IMHO, if the damage was already present at the time of sale, BMW should make it right. If the damage happened while in possession of the OP, the OP is on the hook. A good dealership would repair this damage as it was, without a doubt, sold that way. Do they legally have to, not for me to decide as I am no expert. But again, I would if I were the dealer. If someone wants to debate this issue and suggest the mice boarded the car while in transit and started chomping on the wires, please start a different thread so that can be ignored.
Let me ask you this: If you sold this car would you pay to repair it?
Reply With Quote
  #111  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:08 AM
noho335 noho335 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Los Angeles
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 372
Mein Auto: 2011 MINI S
There are always going to be things that aren't caught in an inspection done with even the best of intentions. Nobody expects things like this to be perfect, but a Certified Pre-Owned BMW is marketed as the best-of-the-best of used BMWs. For CPO BMW to mean something I would expect BMW to stand behind it. We're not talking an "as-is" private sale here. Even if they technically/legally have an out on the car - if I'm BMW - I would work for customer satisfaction here. If there's mice damage on the wiring maybe this car wasn't worthy of the certification in the first place. I've dealt with them. They're not legalistic robots. They're capable of seeing the big picture in unique situations.
Reply With Quote
  #112  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:10 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by need4speed View Post
I agree that the CPO inspection may not have been able to catch the mouse chewed wires as part of it's normal inspection. I think the area of interest should be how many times was the car brought in for this problem before/as it was being CPOed. What you would want is a paper trail that shows the dealer knew or should have known and investigated a long standing issue, but instead ignored it.
According to the OP the previous owner stated there was nothing wrong with the vehicle. This suggest there is no paper trail.
Reply With Quote
  #113  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:14 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
It's my opinion it was there. I think the selling dealers explanation of a mouse getting into the vehicle post sale is ridiculous.



Let me ask you this: If you sold this car would you pay to repair it?
If I was in business to keep customers and that was my livelihood, YES. If I was selling as an individual, NO. Honest answer. But, if I bought a used car from an individual I would not expect him to pay for it either. If I bought a used car from a dealer that had CPO'd the car, I would certainly fight to get them to pay for it. We can debate this issue all we want. Bottom line is the legal answer is probably different than the politically correct answer. I have a feeling the OP is going to be on the hook...caveat emptor. Personally how do we know the dealership was not aware of the damage and did not disclose it in the first place. We don't, but again I feel the right thing to do would be for the selling dealership to fix it as it was obviously sold with a defect. If I purchase a product and come home and find out it has a defect, the first thing I do is take it back, even refurbished items. Never have a problem with retail outfits refunding or exchanging. Different scenario here, I know, but the concept and customer satisfaction outcome should be the same.
Reply With Quote
  #114  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:26 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
If I was in business to keep customers and that was my livelihood, YES. If I was selling as an individual, NO. Honest answer. But, if I bought a used car from an individual I would not expect him to pay for it either. If I bought a used car from a dealer that had CPO'd the car, I would certainly fight to get them to pay for it.
If you go way back to the beginning of this discussion you'll see where I said:

"I think these are reasonable options but they rely on convincing Suntrup BMW they should have discovered this problem during the PPO."

My focus isn't about whether Suntrup / BMW should make it right or not.
Reply With Quote
  #115  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:37 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
If you go way back to the beginning of this discussion you'll see where I said:

"I think these are reasonable options but they rely on convincing Suntrup BMW they should have discovered this problem during the PPO."

My focus isn't about whether Suntrup / BMW should make it right or not.
Yes, but I think that is EXACTLY the focus of the OP.
Reply With Quote
  #116  
Old 09-01-2011, 08:51 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,674
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
Yes, but I think that is EXACTLY the focus of the OP.
I agree. But that's not why I'm involved in the discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #117  
Old 09-01-2011, 09:16 AM
sttlondon sttlondon is offline
Registered User
Location: Jackson, MS
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 1
Mein Auto: 2008 335i
hey man

so i read your post with a grin on my face
not because it's a good thing you're experiencing all this but because i've been there done that.
i bought a CPO 2008 335i sedan about 2 years ago. i owned that car for 10 months. it was in the shop 10 times. repeated fixes on the HPFP (fuel pump) until the last time and they put BMW's new HPFP in it. some sensor related to the turbo's died so that was replaced. part of the traction control system had been malfunctioning since the car was new and it had worn thru the rear brake pads and was causing lurches and rough starts from stops.
now...all this was done free of charge because i bought it CPO but it was the hassle that really annoyed me.
The car was INCREDIBLY fun to drive. the engine, i found, was far more responsive than the new single turbo twin-scroll engine that in production right now. there's a section of twists and turns on i-40 in eastern TN and NC...if you get a chance, take your car and do this. there was a pack of us random bmws that left the rest of the cars in the dust...an m3, couple 335's, and 335d.

all that to say...if you like the car, get it fixed and run it.
i ended up trading mine after having some fun with it.
now i own an '11 328i coupe m-sport. it's no 335i but it moves along fairly well and it's a comfortable drive.

-s
Reply With Quote
  #118  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:07 AM
XeroxGuy XeroxGuy is offline
Registered User
Location: Minneapolis
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 13
Mein Auto: 2008 335i
This morning, BMW of Minnetonka responded to Suntrup's Service Manager's request for photos of the damage. I can't say I'm that impressed by the quality of the photos, and I'm no auto expert, so it's tough to judge just how much of an impact this all has. The email included the pictures, a description of the problem, and the estimated costs to repair:

Mac,
Attatched are the pictures for Doug Ruth's vehicle that he recently purchased from you. There are wires that have been eaten by a rodent above the right rear wheel well. This has caused the service engine soon light to turn on. Please let me know if you have any questions. The cost to repair the vehicle is as follows:

Labor - $1875.00
Part #BM16-12-6-765-749 - $30.53

After posting my story on BMW's corporate Facebook page, I was told someone from BMW NA LLC will reach out to me. Not sure if they'll be more help than the first two customer reps I've spoken with...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	BMW Wires 1.jpg
Views:	139
Size:	76.3 KB
ID:	291204   Click image for larger version

Name:	BMW Wires 2.jpg
Views:	124
Size:	92.8 KB
ID:	291205   Click image for larger version

Name:	BMW Wires 3.jpg
Views:	117
Size:	61.3 KB
ID:	291206  
Reply With Quote
  #119  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:12 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
$1875 in Labor. Either that is a misprint or I need to look at specializing in BMW electrical repairs.
Reply With Quote
  #120  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:20 AM
55's Avatar
55 55 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CANADA
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 557
Mein Auto: 2009 e91 X-drive, 6MT
The damage is small if the picture shows everything. I would fix it myself in 1 hour max.
But you mentioned that you are not handy, then you can ask an independent garage to fix it for a few $.
Forget about dealers and lawyers IMO, if you are not on the hook for the diagnostic.
Reply With Quote
  #121  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:35 AM
minus13 minus13 is offline
Registered User
Location: South Carolina
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Posts: 42
Mein Auto: 2009 335d
I like how quick they were to suggest a rodent did it. They must have called in RSI to do a DNA analysis on the electrical tape to help them reach that conclusion.
Reply With Quote
  #122  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:38 AM
55's Avatar
55 55 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: CANADA
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 557
Mein Auto: 2009 e91 X-drive, 6MT
On the other thought: it is unlikely that automotive technicians (dealer on not) have a skill to fix wiring. You need some person who has electrical skills.
Reply With Quote
  #123  
Old 09-01-2011, 10:53 AM
hockeyfox hockeyfox is offline
Registered User
Location: Minnesota
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 30
Mein Auto: 2010 328i xdrive wagon
Honestly, unless there is damage in other areas, a splice here and there and new wire insulation and it should be a permanent fix. Suntrip will most likely laugh when they see the pictures. The labor cost is mostly likely a full replacement of the wiring harness and they have to tear about the whole vehicle to wire it from point A to B. I would focus on the damage, get it fixed, and be done with it. Hopefully I am not over simplifying the situation.
Reply With Quote
  #124  
Old 09-01-2011, 12:18 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
I agree. But that's not why I'm involved in the discussion.
If your goal is to argue that legally the OP cannot prove the dealers were at fault, I have already demonstrated that in a legal dispute it would be very easy to convince a jury that based on what happened to the OP's car, the CPO certification is of little value (as you had said yourself), contrary to the very high value stated by the manufacture and its dealers.

You are likely to lose in court, even if you believe you may win on a few points on technicality.

While you are not obligated to consider the consequences, the attorneys representing the manufacture must advise their clients or boss what course of action to take.

Would they insist on arguing on technicality, therefore facing likely defeat on the false claim of the value of the CPO certification?

Or would they advise the manufacture/dealers to repair that car under warranty, or to repurchase to resolve the complaint?

To answer that question requires legal expertise.
Reply With Quote
  #125  
Old 09-01-2011, 12:29 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
Officially Welcomed to the 'Fest
Location: Norcal
 
Join Date: Jan 2011
Posts: 4,694
Mein Auto: 2011 328i
Quote:
Originally Posted by hockeyfox View Post
Honestly, unless there is damage in other areas, a splice here and there and new wire insulation and it should be a permanent fix. Suntrip will most likely laugh when they see the pictures. The labor cost is mostly likely a full replacement of the wiring harness and they have to tear about the whole vehicle to wire it from point A to B. I would focus on the damage, get it fixed, and be done with it. Hopefully I am not over simplifying the situation.
The danger is that what if this does not fix the issue? What if there are other issues not discovered and might show up later?

If he tries to fix the problem outside of the warranty at a indy shop but fails, would the dealers be happy to pick it up what is left and continue their warranty repair, or could they point fingers at the indy shop?
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks


Forum Navigation
Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 3 Series / 4 Series > E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
Today's Posts Search
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On



Forum Jump


All times are GMT -7. The time now is 01:38 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
© 2001-2011 performanceIX, Inc. All Rights Reserved .: guidelines .:. privacy .:. terms