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  #1  
Old 03-30-2004, 02:13 AM
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Dan4tuc58 Dan4tuc58 is offline
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Arrow The one night i decide not to speed...

Maybe some of you can relate/help/comment...

Let me first say that when I do speed, it is safely. However, this night (the 18th) I was not speeding...so Iím on the 101 S heading towards LA from SB...Around the van Nuys area ... so Iím in the 3rd lane from the fast lane...and Iím going 65, 70, and 65 etc... but its around 9pm and there is still a good amount of traffic...so cars start slowing down only in my lane...about 4 cars in front of me...slowing down to around 60, 65 or so since I guess the front cars were following the leader too closely or something...I didn't care for the longest... I just finished my last final took a nap and started driving to LA so I could catch my flight to Montreal the next morning to see my gf...I was in no mood to speed I was just so glad finals were over and that I was officially on spring break...so this slowing down keeps happening for about 5 mins...and cars behind me are getting close and just switching out of the lane over and over...I didnít care until I saw that I was in a position where I felt unsafe...I take pride in my defensive driving...so I signal towards the right lane ...make the change and accelerate to pass the 4 or so vehicles that were driving slow...so Iím passing at around 70 increasing to 75....about to pass the last 2 cars when I see a car come from the right all behind me as I am getting ready to signal back over to my original lane...and he gets closer and closer to the point of tailgating...and Iím like wth??...Iím just thinking to myself "wth go around buddy" and then I see the lights...and I just let out a "are you f-ing kidding me" and signal to the right and begin to pull over... the cop was like don't pull over here....exit the next exit....so I start to comply and start to speed up normally and hez like "accelerate!" accelerate faster or something like that so I do even thought he exit is fairly nearby and I get off the fwy and pull over...he comes up to my window I greet him with a good evening and give him my documentation...he then says "why are you going so fast? Are you upset? why did you change lanes so aggressively"...I look at him blankly and say "I did what???" all while thinking that this isnít happening...I told him no I am not angry and that I didnít think that I made an aggressive lane change...especially since there was no one in the lane that I changed to....so I asked him how fast he saw me going...and his response was approximately 80 to 90...thatís when Iím pretty sure I had a stupid look on my face as if I didnít hear him correctly...all that came out was "I was???" He didnít answer all he did was ask me some questions about where I was heading and then did some kind of finger eye movement test on me...and told me to wait...I learned from friends and my dad that once theyíve pulled you over...theyíre gonna give you that ticket...and there is very little you can do about it...and this guy was determined...was I angry he asked....well after that, hell yeah I was angry ...he just said to sign...as I was doing so I asked him if I could handle it any other way than going to court in the area...he said it was all on the ticket...and that was that...

Yeah I did not get good sleep that night...got home packed and laid in bed thinking about how I was gonna fight this bs ticket...there was no point in arguing with him...I had my V1 on but it did not go off since he did not use his radar...he just made a guess at my speed as he entered the freeway...Its just so frustrating that when I do decide not to speed and stay in the fast lanes getting past traffic...that I get pulled over in all my 4 years of driving/ clean record...and before my flight...as you can imagine...I felt great after that...

I mean how can even argue this....should I request a trial by writing? Should I just go to court and explain it to the judge just like this admitting that yes I did exceed the 65mph but only to pass cars that were bunched together and in my opinion were going at unsafe speeds that put me at risk being at the very back of the pack? Or get a lawyer ($$)? It just makes me feel sick as to how I fell victim to his monthly quota...and not some jerk in the fast lane driving unsafely cutting people off...or some person slowing down and congesting traffic...

He wrote that I was doing approx 85...wtf....incredible...I know I step on the gas...but not enough to his estimate...I even recall quickly glancing down at the speedometer after I saw his lights...and I was definitely not above 79 at most...esp at 9pm on a thursday in traffic in one of the slow lanes of all lanes...I know I was not speeding at what he claims... I clearly remember promising my gf that I was gonna drive safely and not speed because I wanted to be sure to safely make that flight the next morning...and I remember thinking about that while I was driving the whole night...checking my speed and staying in the slow lanes....

dammit, this sucks...I admit that I was not going the limit...but I was not driving ill-manneredly...nor speeding at such speeds...I was avoiding other drivers that were putting me in a compromising situation that I did not want to be in...I was merely passing... what pissed me off the most was that if I was actually speeding (safely, always safely) I probably wouldnít be in this situation...and all I know is that I definitely do not want the point(s) that this ticket may entail



ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED Thank you.
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  #2  
Old 03-30-2004, 06:21 AM
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LmtdSlip LmtdSlip is offline
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Damn that had to be the longest post ever....

I didnt make it past the lane change.....Yeah I have a suggestion...narrow the story down to the salient bits if you want a response.
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  #3  
Old 03-30-2004, 06:37 AM
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I would discuss it with a lawyer who does these sort of cases and see if you have any recourse.
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  #4  
Old 03-30-2004, 07:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
Maybe some of you can relate/help/comment...

I mean how can even argue this....should I request a trial by writing? Should I just go to court and explain it to the judge just like this admitting that yes I did exceed the 65mph but only to pass cars that were bunched together and in my opinion were going at unsafe speeds that put me at risk being at the very back of the pack? Or get a lawyer ($$)? It just makes me feel sick as to how I fell victim to his monthly quota...and not some jerk in the fast lane driving unsafely cutting people off...or some person slowing down and congesting traffic...

He wrote that I was doing approx 85...wtf....incredible...I know I step on the gas...but not enough to his estimate...I even recall quickly glancing down at the speedometer after I saw his lights...and I was definitely not above 79 at most...esp at 9pm on a thursday in traffic in one of the slow lanes of all lanes...I know I was not speeding at what he claims... I clearly remember promising my gf that I was gonna drive safely and not speed because I wanted to be sure to safely make that flight the next morning...and I remember thinking about that while I was driving the whole night...checking my speed and staying in the slow lanes....

dammit, this sucks...I admit that I was not going the limit...but I was not driving ill-manneredly...nor speeding at such speeds...I was avoiding other drivers that were putting me in a compromising situation that I did not want to be in...I was merely passing... what pissed me off the most was that if I was actually speeding (safely, always safely) I probably wouldnít be in this situation...and all I know is that I definitely do not want the point(s) that this ticket may entail



ANY COMMENTS OR SUGGESTIONS WOULD BE GREATLY APPRECIATED Thank you.

This is the easiest type of ticket to argue. You can do a google search if you want. It would be easist to discredit the police officer in court, but I've requested a written hearing before. Basically, there is no way the LEO can get an accurate measure of your speed without radar. I've seen them "pace" a car before and use stopwatches, but nearly ever time a LEO has been taken to court after he tried to "estimate" their speed he's lost.

This is how I've done it. Go into court with 3 different objects and a tape measure, then when the LEO takes the stand ask him to "estimate" the speed of the objects right before they hit the ground. Drop them one at a time (use a feather, a set of keys, and a balled up sock or something like that) before hand do the work to find out how fast they are actually going. Compare his answers to the actual numbers. He won't be within a few MPH, and prolly will be way off. If his error is 4 mph average and they were going 20 mph, then multiply that by 3 or 4 and show that he could have been off by 12-16 mph or more. Basically this attacks the LEO's credibility to accurately "estimate" speed.

It may also benifit you to find out how long the LEO "eyeballed" you before getting that estimate. I've heard of cops sitting in alleys and estimating speed. If you do the math, you can generally prove they only had less than a second to estimate your speed. Then you can have a cover in front of the object you are dropping and only let the dropped object be visable for the last 5 inches or so.

I know this is a bit over the top, but it's your right. Depending on the judge, you may be able to get a written trail, using the argument that the officer was not able to accurately estimate your speed while trying to navigate the highway in its very dynamic manner. That to allow this ticket to stand without evidence would set a bad presidence. With a good judge, they'll be familar with this and throw it out. Most LEO's no that "estimating" speed usualy

Here's the one thing you need to remember through all of this. If you are going to fight it, never addmit to speeding. NEVER. Once you do that, it doesn't matter what actually happend, in their eyes you deserve that ticket. I know it isn't fair, but that's the way the system works.

Hope this helps
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  #5  
Old 03-30-2004, 11:52 AM
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Dan4tuc58 Dan4tuc58 is offline
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It does help, great suggestion, thanks. But, do i want to discredit him in court? I was going over 65 clearly... However, I know i was not going at the estimate he wrote on the ticket. Is that all i have to prove? That i was probably NOT doing 85 and he could be off by so and so mph? would that be enough for the judge to throw it out?...so basically i'd be saying i was passing slower traffic and the officer made a bad estimate? Or am i better off pleading no contest and ask the judge if i can pay the fine and avoid the traffic school?


SUMMARY OF WHAT OCCURED (thx LmtdSlip) : I was behind slower traffic [4 or so cars] (i was in the 3rd lane from the fast lane), i was passing on the right and sped up to do so....i get pulled over claiming that i was doing 80-90 (which is ridiculous because in order to pass those cars going from 60 - 90 to be at his estimated speed i would have clearly heard the engine being in the 4K rpm range...yeah...no) ...he then gives me a ticket saying excess of 65mph and his estimate was 85mph...i did not argue with him or admit to going those speeds. Clean driving record since i started 4years ago. I don't want to pay the fine...but i'm willing to as long as i do not get any points on my record and I really do not want to ask for traffic school...i rather save that for a time where i am really speeding and actually guilty of being a danger on the road.... Suggestions or Comments would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
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  #6  
Old 03-30-2004, 01:08 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
It does help, great suggestion, thanks. But, do i want to discredit him in court? I was going over 65 clearly... However, I know i was not going at the estimate he wrote on the ticket. Is that all i have to prove? That i was probably NOT doing 85 and he could be off by so and so mph? would that be enough for the judge to throw it out?...so basically i'd be saying i was passing slower traffic and the officer made a bad estimate? Or am i better off pleading no contest and ask the judge if i can pay the fine and avoid the traffic school?

To get out of the ticket, you need to show that the LEO does not have credible evidence concerning your speed. You could even drop the feather and when it's about 2/3 of the way down, drop your keys and have him give an estimate. And then just drop your keys. They'll look faster the first time because the feather is so slow.

The reason radar guns were invented was because a visual estimate of your speed was considered unreliable. Once you show that the LEO's estimates are inaccurate, that evidence has to be thrown out and there is no longer any proof. Which is why you never admit to speeding. If you admited to the LEO that you were speeding, he'll prolly remember and that can be admitted. Anyways, As I see it you have 3 options.

1) go into court, give the demonstration and try to get out of the ticket.
2) Do some research and find some cases where the ticket was thrown out because the officer "estimated" the speed, then request a written trial and cite these cases in your letter. When I was in College I just used the law school library, don't know if you have access to this or not. You may be able to spend a little $$ and have a lawyer help you draft this letter and do the research. This should be cheaper than a lawyer going to court for you.
3) Pay the ticket and live with it.

It's hard for me to walk away from a "fight" so I'd prolly go with #2 as IMHO it is just as likely to succeed and it should take less time (not to mention nerves getting up in front of a judge). The first one is gonna take time and nerves. The third one is easiet, but less satisfying.

Good Luck
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  #7  
Old 03-30-2004, 03:45 PM
LeucX3 LeucX3 is offline
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Ummm, can i get the Cliff-noted version to your summary?
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  #8  
Old 03-30-2004, 03:58 PM
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Mike 325xi Mike 325xi is offline
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After reading this a few times I am still not sure what the actual ticket was for? Was it for "in excess of 65" and the officer added a comment that he estimated that you were going 85mph or was the ticket for going 85mph with the speed being an estimated speed?

If it is for in "excess of 65mph" with his estimate just on there as a note then you probably have no leg to stand on. If he was going 65 behind you, with a calibrated speedometer, and you sped up then the "in excess of 65" is pretty well documented. The fact that he estimated your speed to be 85 is not what he ticketed you for.

I also wonder if he decided to ticket you because you passed on the right...unless I am reading the story wrong?

I'm a little confused...
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  #9  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:20 PM
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Probably a good chance that the reason the guys in front of you were going slow was because they KNEW there was a cop in a close by lane, perhaps in the far left lane that you do not see due to traffic.

The second you made the move to pass the cars in front of you without checking further ahead was the mistake.
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  #10  
Old 03-30-2004, 04:41 PM
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Thanks guys...a written trial would be ideal, however if i do lose i would have to pay the fine and then have the point added to my DMV record and after asking for a trial de novo...and then it would be taken off...is that worth it or should i just take a defensive driving course or traffic school... For Mike maybe this helps: What he wrote was the VC which says that i was going in excess of 65mph. There is a box where it says speed approx. and he wrote 85. So i'm thinking he got on the freeway and saw me switching into the right lane to pass (i did that because it was the clearest lane where i wouldnt have to squeeze in to. what does calibrated speedometer mean? I have a V1 and it did not go off at all no false reading or anything. Now if you mean he switched over into my lane...sped upto 65mph and then had to accelerate more to catch upto me...then that could be trouble...crap...all to avoid staying stuck behind slow traffic and being passed by tailgating cars.....this sucks badly...I wasnt freakin speeeding...i was passing...although i am aware that speeding up to pass is not allowed according to the dmv...i did it for safety measures....

THIS IS JUST ME VENTING:: i was relaxed looking forward to my spring break that just started...happy to be done with finals...and most of all flying to see my gf... ready to fly out...happy as can be cruising...driving defensively...and then something surreal like this happens....it was like a bad dream...i drove back to SB yesterday around 8pm going 65 to 70 at most all the way from LA and people were just speeding right past...tailgating and then passing...over and over....that is why i moved out of the way on the 18th...and how i got my ticket...all to avoid making people angry and keeping myself in a hazzardous situation...i basically sped up to the speed that the fast lane people were going at and maybe not even that....he was probably one of those cops that gets on and off the freeway to catch people...and i got there just in time......
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Old 03-30-2004, 05:34 PM
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Mike 325xi Mike 325xi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
what does calibrated speedometer mean? I have a V1 and it did not go off at all no false reading or anything. ....
Most police cars have calibrated speedometers, meaning their speedometer reading is admissable in court and is calibrated for accuracy...usually that means that they paced you for a period of time at a certain speed. In your case he was probably behind you and the group of cars going 65 and when you sped up he nailed you for "going in excess of 65" as opposed to giving you a speeding ticket for a specific speed...he either didn't have radar on and/or he didn't pace you long enough to get your true highest speed, or you slowed down before he could get a true paced speed (I think they have to pace you for a certain distance before it is valid)

You probably have a good chance of getting it reduced to an offense that would give you no points on your record if you go to court...that's just my guess and is what I would try.

Good luck.
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Old 03-30-2004, 06:48 PM
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FenPhen FenPhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
he then says "why are you going so fast? Are you upset? why did you change lanes so aggressively"...I look at him blankly and say "I did what???" all while thinking that this isnít happening...I told him no I am not angry and that I didnít think that I made an aggressive lane change...especially since there was no one in the lane that I changed to....so I asked him how fast he saw me going...and his response was approximately 80 to 90...thatís when Iím pretty sure I had a stupid look on my face as if I didnít hear him correctly...all that came out was "I was???" He didnít answer all he did was ask me some questions about where I was heading and then did some kind of finger eye movement test on me...and told me to wait...I learned from friends and my dad that once theyíve pulled you over...theyíre gonna give you that ticket...and there is very little you can do about it...and this guy was determined...was I angry he asked....well after that, hell yeah I was angry ...he just said to sign...as I was doing so I asked him if I could handle it any other way than going to court in the area...he said it was all on the ticket...and that was that...
Check out the Ticket Assassin. I'd recommend reading the entire site to find out anything more to help your case, but definitely see the Visor Guide for future reference.

(I can't say for sure any of this works, but it sounds like good advice to me.)
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Old 03-30-2004, 11:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by The HACK
Probably a good chance that the reason the guys in front of you were going slow was because they KNEW there was a cop in a close by lane, perhaps in the far left lane that you do not see due to traffic.

The second you made the move to pass the cars in front of you without checking further ahead was the mistake.
nope...i didnt even finish passing the cars when he was behind me....so yeah that wasnt it...plus the guys in the fast lane were going more quickly than the slow ones i tried to pass...since they were passing me...maybe passing on the right got me closer to him and got his attention as he was coming onto the freeway...or something...but it was not my mistake of not looking ahead.

Last edited by Dan4tuc58; 03-30-2004 at 11:37 PM.
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Old 03-30-2004, 11:40 PM
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Mike and FenPhen thank you for your suggestions and comments...i'll look into them. Thank you for taking the time to respond.
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Old 03-31-2004, 02:43 PM
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This topic has been discussed quite a bit by moi.

Hint, use keywords like CHP, 22348b, etc.
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Old 03-31-2004, 04:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
This topic has been discussed quite a bit by moi.

Hint, use keywords like CHP, 22348b, etc.
Also search for Butt-Head or Butthead... or Tepulveda.... or one of those variants...
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Old 03-31-2004, 05:21 PM
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22348b is speeding in excess of 100mph.... I think only butthead gets that around here.

The guy probably got a 22349a, which is 65mph+. I am looking at one now
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Old 03-31-2004, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuka
This topic has been discussed quite a bit by moi.

Hint, use keywords like CHP, 22348b, etc.

I did search google...i just wanted to hear from bimmerfest members, but thank you anyway.
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Old 03-31-2004, 05:45 PM
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doeboy doeboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Galun
22348b is speeding in excess of 100mph.... I think only butthead gets that around here.

The guy probably got a 22349a, which is 65mph+. I am looking at one now
Me too...
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Old 03-31-2004, 06:53 PM
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Originally Posted by doeboy
Me too...

awwww...
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:05 PM
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Just out of curiosity what is your driving record like ... that may also make a big difference on things ... I got out of my first ticket in court by having a clean driving record ... until this butthead decided to pull me over for speeding ... then it went downhill from there But if all else fails ... do not try to use the feather on the judge, that's just too kinky
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Old 03-31-2004, 07:13 PM
Stuka Stuka is offline
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Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
I did search google...i just wanted to hear from bimmerfest members, but thank you anyway.
Sigh, was only a figure of speech.

Did you even bother searching the bimmerfest with the hint keywords? All of your questions have been covered multiple times.
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sabrina
Just out of curiosity what is your driving record like ... that may also make a big difference on things ... I got out of my first ticket in court by having a clean driving record ... until this butthead decided to pull me over for speeding ... then it went downhill from there But if all else fails ... do not try to use the feather on the judge, that's just too kinky
clean record. I was thinking of actually thinking of not taking the easy way out and just taking traffic school....I want to go to court because not only was his estimate pretty unfair but he made out to look like i was speeding wrecklessly...which i was definately not...i think i can argue against the instrumentation that he was using....since he did pace me i'll argue if his speedometer was tested recently and if he has the proper documentation for it and how long ago it was done...and if there is any record of tire changes...or anything done to the specific patrol vehicle that he was driving that day that could have made his speedometer fail...and if he doesnt have that documentation i'm hoping for a dismissal....what do you think?
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Mike 325xi
I also wonder if he decided to ticket you because you passed on the right...unless I am reading the story wrong?
Unlike many east coast states, that is not illegal in CA.
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Old 03-31-2004, 08:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dan4tuc58
I want to go to court because not only was his estimate pretty unfair but he made out to look like i was speeding wrecklessly
You weren't driving wrecklessly? So you had a wreck?

Oh, recklessly!
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