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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #51  
Old 09-24-2011, 11:20 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
Are u that sure it won't be in the near future? You want to put money on this?
you mean on the M?
there was some rumors about xdrive and they diminish ..

what can I tell you on this...X drive is present everywhere in the series except the M's

so I think its for a reason?

anyway..you are an X-drive fan that perfectly allright,

but don't waste time, I can't change my opinion about x-drive

I am an RWD fan-hardcoded

I understand your points, especially if you are in a snowy region,

and about transferring all power to the ground although sometimes in driving

it is not about transferring everything to the ground only.

If it was only simple as that...

If human evolution had to be like that we would be reptiles..

A vehicle is driven by a human -- a species that is able to perceive the dimensions of balance and manage it, extracting pleasure or other feelings from it.

Last edited by bmw_enthusiasm; 09-24-2011 at 11:32 PM.
  #52  
Old 09-24-2011, 11:28 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calgary Agent View Post
I would bet that most (all) of those suggesting RWD is as good as or better than AWD don't have to drive thru snowdrifts and ice-caked roads for 6 months of the year. Obviously in these conditions snow tires are a must (All Season tires in these types of conditions just don't work).

I've got 4 excellent snow tires on my RWD 550 and it's next to useless in extreme weather - I leave it in the garage and drive the 4Runner
and let it be said, that on extreme weather only a real truck is useful
many were the times when even 4-wheel SUV's got me stuck on extreme weather.
  #53  
Old 09-25-2011, 02:09 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by bmw_enthusiasm View Post
and let it be said, that on extreme weather only a real truck is useful
many were the times when even 4-wheel SUV's got me stuck on extreme weather.
rwd with good tires:



awd with poor tires

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=dzfZuOTRBD4

SUV in snow



It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.

Last edited by solstice; 09-25-2011 at 02:19 AM.
  #54  
Old 09-25-2011, 01:38 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.
Skills are very important and technology will not always save the incompetent, but skills plus technology make a great combination.

What passes as a daily driver for me is that it can be driven daily. My $107k MB SL550 was my daily driver that saw plenty of snow, but it didn't always make it up my driveway, even with snow tires. Hence, I now drive a 550xi as my daily driver. If I knew the weather was going to be really bad ahead of time, I would pick my AWD MB GL450 with A/S tires over my SL with snow tires, because the GL did make it up and down the my driveway every time with ease due to its hill climb and descent modes despite the inferior tires. It was technology over skill, over somehow it seemed like technology over physics.

The 550 is offered with AWD and RWD and buyers are able to pick the drivetrain that suits their driving needs best. So, I'm not sure why it would be a bad thing if BMW were to offer both an AWD and a RWD M5. I could see myself buying an AWD M5 in the future, but I would not consider a RWD M5 as a daily driver. The M Division has already shown that they can do wonders with the xDrive equipped X5M and X6M and I bet they could do wonders with an M5x. The 550xi with Dinan is sweet, but an M5x with Dinan would be even sweeter.
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  #55  
Old 09-25-2011, 07:17 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
rwd with good tires:


It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.
While this may look great but take the same skills and same tires and you will see no matter the conditions AWD + proper tires will make the average driver look much better. It just adds more stability. We aren't talking tracking the M5 everyday here. We aren't going to make this 4200lb M5 a awesome track car either as it is too heavy. So most M5 will be on regular roads in summer and winter driving.
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  #56  
Old 09-25-2011, 07:59 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post

It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.
I agree with you but I was referring to extremities.
Generally, in snow, treating a RWD the same way you would with a FWD upside down
is the way to go.
But you have to admit some driveways with the snow become such an impossibility especially if they are a little isolated too.
There is a particular road I have stuck with RWD, FWD, AWD SUV, in the same spots a couple of times and there is just no way to get out of this unless if you have a real truck. (with high clearance under)

In any case, these issues have nothing to do with the sweet M legend that for now at least shall remain intact.
  #57  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:02 PM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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IMO all AWD cars should have a button that disables/enables AWD..
not just 80-20 on the turns etc.
There shall be a voluntary way to accept AWD. Not sure if this is technically viable,
but I never understood it. If they had that I could even see it on an M car..!
(well..wait a minute..that wasn't me talking I am joking for the M part )
  #58  
Old 09-25-2011, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Calgary Agent View Post
I would bet that most (all) of those suggesting RWD is as good as or better than AWD don't have to drive thru snowdrifts and ice-caked roads for 6 months of the year. Obviously in these conditions snow tires are a must (All Season tires in these types of conditions just don't work).

I've got 4 excellent snow tires on my RWD 550 and it's next to useless in extreme weather - I leave it in the garage and drive the 4Runner
I don't know. if you live in the middle of nowhere and are the guy who drives to the snowplough then nothing short of an off road AWD vehicle will suffice.

But I drove around Munich several winters in a 530D RWD on high quality snow and ice tires (stud less) and never had any problems when climbing hills with snow on the ground.
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  #59  
Old 09-25-2011, 11:47 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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The M cars are not intended to be the average drivers car nor is intended to be the neighborhood snow plow or rescue vehicle. It's supposed to be the ultimate of ultimate driving machines and as such rwd is the choice. Look at Porsche, every 911 type comes in awd versions except their ultimate drivers cars the GT RS models. The 550 x drive packs a lot of fire power but the M models should be more about pure driving enjoyment than traction in snow. Just a pity that rwd and power is now pretty much the only thing left of that philosophy so in that sense I guess they could just go all the way and add another couple of hundred pounds and dilute what little is left of steering purity by adding a beefy awd system.

Last edited by solstice; 09-25-2011 at 11:49 PM.
  #60  
Old 09-26-2011, 03:04 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.
I can't agree and for very obvious reasons. Showing examples of one car (rwd) with proper tyres out-performing another (awd) with poor tyres isn't realistic, you have to compare like with like and in that case twice the number of driven wheels means twice the amount of actual traction. You are right in saying that you could get by without awd in probably 95% of situations but not everyone wants to simply "get by" and probably want a drive system design to cope with what the weather can throw at them, even if that means only 5% of the time. Another thing, hi-performance generally means wide performance summer tyres, great for the summer but less so in the winter even when it doesn't snow because in lower temperatures these tyres harden up and lose some of their grip so again from a purely traction point of view you will benefit from awd.

That said the new M-diff seems to be able to find more traction than ever before and for a true uncompromising sports saloon like the M5 they have probably reach the limit without switching to awd that will gain in some areas but loss out in others, names feel and involvement.
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  #61  
Old 09-26-2011, 05:08 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's mostly about skills and tires, less about rwd, awd or SUV. In truly extreme conditions the drive type and vehicle type matters for sure but who takes a $110k super sedan into extreme conditions? I think rwd is the right choide for the M5 and that the 550i X-drive covers well for the audience who wants a fast luxury bmw with awd. I don't see a need for an awd M5.
I'd say skill is a must and its clear it makes a difference, but 90% of people can barely drive when its sunny( you and me both have been on 495/270 ) let alone in these conditions so its much less feasible to say learn to drive in snow like a professional then it would be to stick xdrive on and tell people buy snow tires. I'm fairly confident in my driving, but I'm 100% sure I'd get smoked by anyone who has really spent time investing in really learning driving techniques'.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
I can't agree and for very obvious reasons. Showing examples of one car (rwd) with proper tyres out-performing another (awd) with poor tyres isn't realistic.
Not only that, but look at the comparison of drivers of course somebody who's had professional training or spent 100% of their lives in those elements will fare much better than the dummy in the 91' Cherokee barreling down the hill (still funny video though)

I'd just like to see them open the market on both the m5/m3.

Last edited by SuperTerp; 09-26-2011 at 05:12 AM.
  #62  
Old 09-26-2011, 05:23 AM
BobBigMan BobBigMan is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The M cars are not intended to be the average drivers car nor is intended to be the neighborhood snow plow or rescue vehicle.
That may well be their intent but the reality is that any smuck with the funds can go into their nearest BMW dealers and order it with no driving skill what to speak of, plus they aren't going to say to you "oh I see you live in the state of X so I'm sorry but we can't sell it to you because it snows there." lol

Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
It's supposed to be the ultimate of ultimate driving machines and as such rwd is the choice. Look at Porsche, every 911 type comes in awd versions except their ultimate drivers cars the GT RS models. The 550 x drive packs a lot of fire power but the M models should be more about pure driving enjoyment than traction in snow. Just a pity that rwd and power is now pretty much the only thing left of that philosophy so in that sense I guess they could just go all the way and add another couple of hundred pounds and dilute what little is left of steering purity by adding a beefy awd system.
You are making it out like the M5 is the ultimate driving machine which we all know it won't nor couldn't be, it's too heavy, too big and too tall; it is what it is a big heavy luxurious but hellish fast saloon. Compared to the 550xi it will probably feel like the ultimate driver's tool but it's far from it in reality and shouldn't be compared to a 911 of any type.
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Last edited by BobBigMan; 09-26-2011 at 05:24 AM.
  #63  
Old 09-26-2011, 05:40 AM
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plus they aren't going to say to you "oh I see you live in the state of X so I'm sorry but we can't sell it to you because it snows there." lol
lol maybe there, but here they tried to talk me out of a 550xi
  #64  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:02 AM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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That may well be their intent but the reality is that any smuck with the funds can go into their nearest BMW dealers and order it with no driving skill what to speak of,
Exactly +1
and on top of it they complain, criticize use all kinds of non-sense arguments and ask for AWD!

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Last edited by bmw_enthusiasm; 09-26-2011 at 09:09 AM.
  #65  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:03 AM
bmw_enthusiasm bmw_enthusiasm is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The M cars are not intended to be the average drivers car nor is intended to be the neighborhood snow plow or rescue vehicle. It's supposed to be the ultimate of ultimate driving machines and as such rwd is the choice. Look at Porsche, every 911 type comes in awd versions except their ultimate drivers cars the GT RS models. The 550 x drive packs a lot of fire power but the M models should be more about pure driving enjoyment than traction in snow. Just a pity that rwd and power is now pretty much the only thing left of that philosophy so in that sense I guess they could just go all the way and add another couple of hundred pounds and dilute what little is left of steering purity by adding a beefy awd system.
Dude...I don't know what to say anymore
you are always leaving me speechless...how do you manage to do that?
every time I Want to say something you have already said it!

+10
  #66  
Old 09-26-2011, 09:41 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
The M cars are not intended to be the average drivers car nor is intended to be the neighborhood snow plow or rescue vehicle. It's supposed to be the ultimate of ultimate driving machines and as such rwd is the choice. Look at Porsche, every 911 type comes in awd versions except their ultimate drivers cars the GT RS models. The 550 x drive packs a lot of fire power but the M models should be more about pure driving enjoyment than traction in snow. Just a pity that rwd and power is now pretty much the only thing left of that philosophy so in that sense I guess they could just go all the way and add another couple of hundred pounds and dilute what little is left of steering purity by adding a beefy awd system.
I agree with you but the only thing is that the GT RS are more or less track cars, while the M5 is not really a track car. The M5 is really for the streets and while not for the average driver it is the wealthy average driver that buy these cars a lot of times just for status. Most of the times these cars are bought by wealthy guys living in big cities and driven in city traffic summer/winter. I would prefer the M5 in RWD also just for fun but if I only have one car I would buy it in AWD.
As much as I love this car I wouldn't be looking forward to taking a 4200lb+ car on the track.
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Last edited by Nobrandfanboy; 09-26-2011 at 09:45 AM.
  #67  
Old 09-26-2011, 11:07 AM
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I agree with you but the only thing is that the GT RS are more or less track cars, while the M5 is not really a track car. The M5 is really for the streets and while not for the average driver it is the wealthy average driver that buy these cars a lot of times just for status. Most of the times these cars are bought by wealthy guys living in big cities and driven in city traffic summer/winter. I would prefer the M5 in RWD also just for fun but if I only have one car I would buy it in AWD.
As much as I love this car I wouldn't be looking forward to taking a 4200lb+ car on the track.
Yeah I understand but I don't agree. I think I could pretty much keep up with the bearded guy in the video I posted but I would still not drive an M5 in arctic winters. There are just to many crappy drivers, hidden obstacles and you can't use the strengths of the M, awd or not so I would have a winter beater if I lived in such climate and owned an M5. The notion of an M5 as an all season car where you have several months of ice and snow is just a bit foreign to me. And if you doubt the M LSD differential in the wet go to your bmw dealer a rainy day and ask to test drive an M3. Lay down some power on an on-ramp and prepare to be amazed. The grip is shocking.
  #68  
Old 09-26-2011, 11:28 AM
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And if you doubt the M LSD differential in the wet go to your bmw dealer a rainy day and ask to test drive an M3. Lay down some power on an on-ramp and prepare to be amazed. The grip is shocking.
Bullsssshhhhiiiiiittttt.

In the wet if you give the M3 a bootful of power then be bloody quick with the opposite lock, otherwise prepare yourself to be facing the other way with on-coming traffic making a path out round you. The diff on the M3 is not the same as the one in this M5 and is the reason why Chris Harris rates it's grip despite it's huge power and torque advantage to be a marked improvement over his 1M.
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  #69  
Old 09-26-2011, 11:41 AM
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Bullsssshhhhiiiiiittttt.

In the wet if you give the M3 a bootful of power then be bloody quick with the opposite lock, otherwise prepare yourself to be facing the other way with on-coming traffic making a path out round you. The diff on the M3 is not the same as the one in this M5 and is the reason why Chris Harris rates it's grip despite it's huge power and torque advantage to be a marked improvement over his 1M.
I drove my M3 in the wet to work today including two on-ramps. What's your reference? Trust me when I say that there is ample opportunities to explore wet conditions in Seattle. Call it bs if it makes you feel better about your A6. I still regard the M3s wet weather grip as nothing short of astounding. Compared to the F10 and E60 I came out of the difference is huge. With those cars the DSC cut in constantly if you gave some throttle in the wet. With the M3 the grip is on a totally different level.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2011 at 11:50 AM.
  #70  
Old 09-26-2011, 11:50 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Yeah I understand but I don't agree. I think I could pretty much keep up with the bearded guy in the video I posted but I would still not drive an M5 in arctic winters. There are just to many crappy drivers, hidden obstacles and you can't use the strengths of the M, awd or not so I would have a winter beater if I lived in such climate and owned an M5. The notion of an M5 as an all season car where you have several months of ice and snow is just a bit foreign to me. And if you doubt the M LSD differential in the wet go to your bmw dealer a rainy day and ask to test drive an M3. Lay down some power on an on-ramp and prepare to be amazed. The grip is shocking.
Solstice you are thinking like a enthusiasts. I like you are an enthusiasts and I don't drive my S4 out during a snowstorm just because of what you are saying about some idiot ramming into the car. This is not the norm though. Most people who buy these car are $$$ guys who either lease these vehicles or not an enthusiast but like the M5 badge. Most of these guys are avg. drivers who would benefit from the AWD.
Also as much as we like to think ourselves as very good drivers I am willing to bet that if you ask the guys on here that own a xi and have driven both rwd and awd if they take a AWD and a RWD car on the track which one they think they could drive it faster around the track, most will say the AWD car, unless they are tremendous drivers and have been racing regularly.

Your M3 can't be compared to the F10 and E60 on level of grip because they are totally different cars sir. Willing to bet here that the extra weight on the other two cars has more to do with it than the differential.
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Last edited by Nobrandfanboy; 09-26-2011 at 11:59 AM.
  #71  
Old 09-26-2011, 12:15 PM
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I drove my M3 in the wet to work today including two on-ramps. What's your reference? Trust me when I say that there is ample opportunities to explore wet conditions in Seattle. Call it bs if it makes you feel better about your A6. I still regard the M3s wet weather grip as nothing short of astounding. Compared to the F10 and E60 I came out of the difference is huge. With those cars the DSC cut in constantly if you gave some throttle in the wet. With the M3 the grip is on a totally different level.
Agree. I also remember a C&D review where the M3 beat the RS4 around a test track, but its margin of advantage increased in the wet.

BMWs are superb wet weather cars.

Driving in torrential rain in Miami on PS2s, nothing was faster than my E46 M3 back in the day.
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  #72  
Old 09-26-2011, 12:19 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Solstice you are thinking like a enthusiasts. I like you are an enthusiasts and I don't drive my S4 out during a snowstorm just because of what you are saying about some idiot ramming into the car. This is not the norm though. Most people who buy these car are $$$ guys who either lease these vehicles or not an enthusiast but like the M5 badge. Most of these guys are avg. drivers who would benefit from the AWD.
Also as much as we like to think ourselves as very good drivers I am willing to bet that if you ask the guys on here that own a xi and have driven both rwd and awd if they take a AWD and a RWD car on the track which one they think they could drive it faster around the track, most will say the AWD car, unless they are tremendous drivers and have been racing regularly.

Your M3 can't be compared to the F10 and E60 on level of grip because they are totally different cars sir.
"Solstice you are thinking like a enthusiasts"
Yes, and I make no excuses about it. Is it selfish? Maybe for the regular 5s but hopefully not for the Ms. I don't wish for or support a bmw evolution that is benefitial for others, I wish for one that is inline with my own preferences as I assume most others do and that's why we have a lively discussion here.

The question is if the M5 is mainly to be another status symbol of executives or an enthusiasts drivers car. Imo it can't successfully be both. What does this new M5 tell us about bmws own view? That they are conflicted, they can't decide themselves and that the status symbol group has the lead but that there are at least some elements that refuses to make it fully mainstream by letting go of all M traditions as rwd.

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2011 at 12:47 PM.
  #73  
Old 09-26-2011, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
I drove my M3 in the wet to work today including two on-ramps. What's your reference? Trust me when I say that there is ample opportunities to explore wet conditions in Seattle. Call it bs if it makes you feel better about your A6. I still regard the M3s wet weather grip as nothing short of astounding. Compared to the F10 and E60 I came out of the difference is huge. With those cars the DSC cut in constantly if you gave some throttle in the wet. With the M3 the grip is on a totally different level.
What's my reference, 11000miles in one and whilst I will agree that it's grip is remarkable compared to a non-LSD car it's not idiot prove, far from it and you do need to be sharpest with the opposite lock when the DSC is off. BTW I would never compare my A6 to the M3, it's nowhere near that level of performance or ability but I bet all the guys here that own a 550xi or other brand of awd car will confirm that a bootful of power in their cars will still get the tail out, only that it's far easier anticipate the angle of slip and speed that it happens due to the power shifting progressively forward helping to pull the car straight again. Far less fun but in the wet easier to control.
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  #74  
Old 09-26-2011, 01:35 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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Location: Seattle
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
What's my reference, 11000miles in one and whilst I will agree that it's grip is remarkable compared to a non-LSD car it's not idiot prove, far from it and you do need to be sharpest with the opposite lock when the DSC is off. BTW I would never compare my A6 to the M3, it's nowhere near that level of performance or ability but I bet all the guys here that own a 550xi or other brand of awd car will confirm that a bootful of power in their cars will still get the tail out, only that it's far easier anticipate the angle of slip and speed that it happens due to the power shifting progressively forward helping to pull the car straight again. Far less fun but in the wet easier to control.
Ok that makes more sense than just bull****. I never said it's idiot proof, just that the grip is very, very good in the wet. For me personally I find that I prefer it compared to an awd in the wet. DSC will keep you in check if you want to relax unless you do something really stupid. And if you turn DSC off, well then it's not for that safe and secure feel, right
Funny my odo just turned to 11k whereof I would guess that 9k or so is in the wet...

Last edited by solstice; 09-26-2011 at 01:38 PM.
  #75  
Old 09-26-2011, 03:58 PM
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dunderhi dunderhi is offline
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Mein Auto: '13 X5M, 650xi
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobBigMan View Post
You are making it out like the M5 is the ultimate driving machine which we all know it won't nor couldn't be, it's too heavy, too big and too tall; it is what it is a big heavy luxurious but hellish fast saloon. Compared to the 550xi it will probably feel like the ultimate driver's tool but it's far from it in reality and shouldn't be compared to a 911 of any type.
+1 (but maybe a candidate for the ultimate driving saloon?)

I thought the M5 was a four door (family) sedan. You know, large back seat to hold the child seats, large trunk to hold the diapers; baby clothes; pac-n-play; and crib, luxury appointments, and a quiet ride with just a bit of artificial engine noise to make the driver imagine the M'ness.
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