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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #1  
Old 10-04-2011, 04:36 AM
PsychDoc1 PsychDoc1 is offline
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BMW sales (especially 5 series) through the roof...

Check this out: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/03/395...september.html

You know the old expression, "people vote with their wallets."
In a horrible economy BMW's sales (YTD) up 14.2%. 5 series up a staggering 55.2%.

You gotta be wondering what the bean counters over at Audi must be thinking.
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  #2  
Old 10-04-2011, 04:42 AM
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Actually, Audi's sales are up the most out of the big 3 (20%). But numbers wise, in the U.S they atill have a ton of catching up to do.



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Old 10-04-2011, 05:37 AM
Munich77 Munich77 is online now
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Thanks for posting those numbers - wow Mercedes sure sells a lot of E-classes. Interesting that there are almost twice as many 3 series sold as there are 5 series while for Mercedes there are approximately the same number of C- and E-class vehicles being sold.
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Old 10-04-2011, 05:41 AM
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What I find staggering is that sales of the vaunted A6 are only up to 1124 units for Sept. At the same time BMW sold over 4000 F10's. If I'm not mistaken, the A6 was readily available throughout the month of Sept.

M-B? Well, what can you say? Some people just will not be happy unless they have their three pointed star.
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Old 10-04-2011, 06:29 AM
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MB is killing it in the segment - around 10000 units more than the F10 YTD for cars branded and sold as E Class models vs those sold as a 5 Series. The A6 is still supply constrained, there are very few available out west for example. Too early to tell the final outcome, but the F10 is mid pack right now and that's unlikely to change. The A6 numbers ought to improve as supply constraints ease up and word gets out that the car is a real contender.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:26 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames View Post
MB is killing it in the segment - around 10000 units more than the F10 YTD for cars branded and sold as E Class models vs those sold as a 5 Series. The A6 is still supply constrained, there are very few available out west for example. Too early to tell the final outcome, but the F10 is mid pack right now and that's unlikely to change. The A6 numbers ought to improve as supply constraints ease up and word gets out that the car is a real contender.
In 2010 Year To Date (September) MB sold 20,000 more E Class than 5 series. As you state this year they sold 10,000 more E Class. The gap has been cut in half in one year.

In 2010 the 5 series sold 18,000 more cars than the A6. In 2011 the 5 series has sold 31,000 more cars than the A6.

2011 MB sold 47,824 cars
2011 BMW 5 sold. 37,996 cars
2011 Audi sold. 6,704 cars
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:31 AM
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Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
What I find staggering is that sales of the vaunted A6 are only up to 1124 units for Sept. At the same time BMW sold over 4000 F10's. If I'm not mistaken, the A6 was readily available throughout the month of Sept.
Maybe it's not as vaunted as some people think.

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M-B? Well, what can you say? Some people just will not be happy unless they have their three pointed star.
+1. Very true. I owned a Mercedes, if "only" a C-Class. The pull of the three pointed star staring you in the face is very powerful. I achieved escape velocity in my first BMW, an '05 330i 6MT and have been a BMW'er since. However, as I was ready to move up to an E/5 level, if the new E had been more "Mercedes-like" like the previous gen, that is, exuding that understated, unmistakable sophistication, I may have been swayed. The new gen has ruined that, as far as I'm concerned. They threw themselves into the fray of Japanese/American design elements with too powerful a "here I am today" attitude, along with a bit of a look of cheapness, IMO. The F10 "conservative" design along with its muscular lines, for me, now holds the reins on the look of sophistication among its MB and Audi counterparts. I can only hope MB gets it more together on their next iteration.
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Old 10-04-2011, 07:43 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
MB is killing it in the segment - around 10000 units more than the F10 YTD for cars branded and sold as E Class models vs those sold as a 5 Series. The A6 is still supply constrained, there are very few available out west for example. Too early to tell the final outcome, but the F10 is mid pack right now and that's unlikely to change. The A6 numbers ought to improve as supply constraints ease up and word gets out that the car is a real contender.
I guess E-Class sales include: sedan, convertible, coupe, wagon, plus diesel and AMG versions.
It would be interesting to see the numbers for E Class sedan vs F10 sedan.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:16 AM
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Does this mean there wont be any cash backs/discounts this Christmas/Holidays?
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:19 AM
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Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
I guess E-Class sales include: sedan, convertible, coupe, wagon, plus diesel and AMG versions.
It would be interesting to see the numbers for E Class sedan vs F10 sedan.
Agreed. The jump in 5 series numbers may also have to do with end-of-year model comparison with a new model 5 series starting 2011 model year.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:19 AM
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Does this mean there wont be any cash backs/discounts this Christmas/Holidays?
I think there will be. There always are. It's a competitive dynamic issue.
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  #12  
Old 10-04-2011, 08:40 AM
Munich77 Munich77 is online now
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Originally Posted by geo3515 View Post
I guess E-Class sales include: sedan, convertible, coupe, wagon, plus diesel and AMG versions.
It would be interesting to see the numbers for E Class sedan vs F10 sedan.
Precisely - I would love to know what the fraction of Coupes/Convertibles is.
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Old 10-04-2011, 08:49 AM
swajames swajames is online now
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Originally Posted by kirbyj View Post
In 2010 Year To Date (September) MB sold 20,000 more E Class than 5 series. As you state this year they sold 10,000 more E Class. The gap has been cut in half in one year.

In 2010 the 5 series sold 18,000 more cars than the A6. In 2011 the 5 series has sold 31,000 more cars than the A6.

2011 MB sold 47,824 cars
2011 BMW 5 sold. 37,996 cars
2011 Audi sold. 6,704 cars
You're forgetting that the E60/F10 transition happened last year and 5 Series sales were down as a result of the transition (the MB W211 to W212 transition happened a year earlier). The A6 is also in transition and its numbers for this year will be depressed as a consequence. This year is more representative for the F10/W212, as both models are widely available with no supply constraints. It will be next year before we can make more meaningful three-way F10/E Class/A6 comparisons based cars that are no longer in transition and no longer suffering from supply constraints around their launch.

As for the sedan vs sedan comparison, a poster on another site who has access to the information notes that BMW sold 3,892 F10s in September whereas the E sold 4,456 this month. Either way, both the 5GT and the other E Class variants are price competitive with the sedans so it's just as interesting to consider sales in their totality (and this is how both manufacturers report) in addition to looking at the sedans in isolation. One might counter that MB has more choices, the other side of the coin is that BMWNA is offering much greater marketing support than MBUSA.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:02 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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One might counter that MB has more choices, the other side of the coin is that BMWNA is offering much greater marketing support than MBUSA.
This argument has been evinced a few times on this forum and I don't buy it. The residuals appear subvented but BMW benefits quite profitably from leases. First, BMW has access to very low cost of capital. Second, the CPO program is quite profitable and more than offsets the delta on the residual. Third but not least, the sales and marketing costs of acquiring a new BMW customer are very high: in the thousands of dollars. There is a very high re-lease rate for BMW leaseholders so BMW would rather keep leases slightly cheaper to capture lifetime customer vehicle spend dollars than keep residuals higher and incur the lower re-lease rates.
Recurring revenue is better than one-time revenue.

You could say that this argument might apply to both Audi and MB too, but Audi buyers change cars less frequently on the whole, and MB is frankly not very sophisticated with its consumer financing....their corporate org is still a mess.

You cannot point at "cheap leases" as a volume driver for BMW. That implies some kind of one-time sale or subsidy when the truth is BMW maintains these lease programs as a strategy. BMW should not be dinged because it is financially efficient. The company is no less profitable because of it than its peers who have less sophisticated financial organizations, due in large part to distractions at corporate over M&A.
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Old 10-04-2011, 10:22 AM
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This argument has been evinced a few times on this forum and I don't buy it. The residuals appear subvented but BMW benefits quite profitably from leases. First, BMW has access to very low cost of capital. Second, the CPO program is quite profitable and more than offsets the delta on the residual. Third but not least, the sales and marketing costs of acquiring a new BMW customer are very high: in the thousands of dollars. There is a very high re-lease rate for BMW leaseholders so BMW would rather keep leases slightly cheaper to capture lifetime customer vehicle spend dollars than keep residuals higher and incur the lower re-lease rates.
Recurring revenue is better than one-time revenue.

You could say that this argument might apply to both Audi and MB too, but Audi buyers change cars less frequently on the whole, and MB is frankly not very sophisticated with its consumer financing....their corporate org is still a mess.

You cannot point at "cheap leases" as a volume driver for BMW. That implies some kind of one-time sale or subsidy when the truth is BMW maintains these lease programs as a strategy. BMW should not be dinged because it is financially efficient. The company is no less profitable because of it than its peers who have less sophisticated financial organizations, due in large part to distractions at corporate over M&A.
We'll have to agree to disagree. Roundel had an article a while back that showed BMW had the highest incentive spend per customer out of the high end brands - something that the brand has publicly acknowledged that it is trying to scale back - and it's very clear that leases and money factors are indeed being subvented, sometime significantly. You can easily get an F10 around or below invoice, you can't do that nearly as easily with the A6 or even the W212. I'm not criticizing BMW for being aggressive in its acquisition of new business, and it is indeed part of their North American strategy, but the bottom line is that it *is* buying market share, it *is* using cheap money and inflated residuals to drive sales and it is doing so to a greater extent than its traditional competition. Take those financial incentives away and the probability is indeed that sales would not be as robust.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:18 AM
Raddius Raddius is offline
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Originally Posted by PsychDoc1 View Post
Check this out: http://www.sacbee.com/2011/10/03/395...september.html

You know the old expression, "people vote with their wallets."
In a horrible economy BMW's sales (YTD) up 14.2%. 5 series up a staggering 55.2%.

You gotta be wondering what the bean counters over at Audi must be thinking.
I know in my area if Audi's A6 numbers are down it's their own fault. We waited 4 weeks for a new A6 to come in. We weren't even insisting it be a new '12 model...we just wanted to see a new one. They had a HUGE dead spot in inventory as the old model was phasing out and the new one was arriving. I felt sorry for our sales lady because she was so sweet and was very frustrated that she couldn't help us. She called us 3 weeks after we took delivery of the 5 series to let us know she had a new A6 coming in and a hold on it. When I told her we already got the 5 I could hear disappointment (she knew we were buyers) and frustration (with Audi) in her voice. She'll probably get another shot when the new (and much lighter) Q7 arrives and the wife looks to replace her current ridicu-large-vehicle.

Although, had we wanted an A4 they had a cubic ass load of those.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:33 AM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
We'll have to agree to disagree. Roundel had an article a while back that showed BMW had the highest incentive spend per customer out of the high end brands - something that the brand has publicly acknowledged that it is trying to scale back - and it's very clear that leases and money factors are indeed being subvented, sometime significantly. You can easily get an F10 around or below invoice, you can't do that nearly as easily with the A6 or even the W212. I'm not criticizing BMW for being aggressive in its acquisition of new business, and it is indeed part of their North American strategy, but the bottom line is that it *is* buying market share, it *is* using cheap money and inflated residuals to drive sales and it is doing so to a greater extent than its traditional competition. Take those financial incentives away and the probability is indeed that sales would not be as robust.
OK but I think you are missing the point. Does Wal-Mart subsidize its customers? No.
It is able to offer lower prices to customers and still earns higher margins than competitors because it is a lot more efficient.

BMW financial services earns a return on capital of 18%. And in case you are wondering whether they are just shifting the residuals onto the group P&L, BMW group's ROIC is even higher at about 26%.

Note that 18% is the return BMW earn on a collateralized lease to customers. Most investors nowadays are hard pressed to find a stock that returns 10% let alone a collateralized investment that returns 18%.

So does it make sense for BMW to offer what you called "subvented" leases to customers? Hell yeah!
What sounds like a great deal for customers is good business for BMW.
It isn't subsidy. It's good profit.
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Old 10-04-2011, 11:55 AM
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Originally Posted by schraderade View Post
OK but I think you are missing the point. Does Wal-Mart subsidize its customers? No.
It is able to offer lower prices to customers and still earns higher margins than competitors because it is a lot more efficient.

BMW financial services earns a return on capital of 18%. And in case you are wondering whether they are just shifting the residuals onto the group P&L, BMW group's ROIC is even higher at about 26%.

Note that 18% is the return BMW earn on a collateralized lease to customers. Most investors nowadays are hard pressed to find a stock that returns 10% let alone a collateralized investment that returns 18%.

So does it make sense for BMW to offer what you called "subvented" leases to customers? Hell yeah!
What sounds like a great deal for customers is good business for BMW.
It isn't subsidy. It's good profit.
It's still buying market share, and BMWNA has indicated that it needs to invest less in each sale than it does. And it is indeed a subsidy, the rather obvious fly in the ointment in terms of your argument is that absent trunk money in form of inflated residuals, discounted money factors and eco credits etc, BMW's returns would be higher still.

Either way, perhaps you can share the sources for the numbers in your post. We are of course talking North American sales in the thread so I'm interested to see your sources for the US margins and returns as I've not seen BMW NA make this data available for the US market - the BMW AG annual report doesn't provide it, only consolidated and aggregate returns. The bottom line is that US market is very different from that in many countries where BMW has significant sales (the UK and Germany, for example). It's more likely than not that margins here will be lower.
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Old 10-04-2011, 12:13 PM
schraderade schraderade is offline
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It's still buying market share, and BMWNA has indicated that it needs to invest less in each sale than it does. And it is indeed a subsidy, the rather obvious fly in the ointment in terms of your argument is that absent trunk money in form of inflated residuals, discounted money factors and eco credits etc, BMW's returns would be higher still.

Either way, perhaps you can share the sources for the numbers in your post. We're talking North American sales in the thread, and I've not seen BMW NA make this data available for the US market.
That doesn't make sense at all. If WalMart doubled its prices its profitability would be higher, but its sales would be lower. The same is true for BMW leases.
This is basic corporate finance. BMW doesn't need to target a return better than 18% because its return on equity target is lower than that! Therefore it focuses on expanding its business as much as possible so long as it doesn't jeopardize its return objectives. This approach goes for BMW, WalMart, Boeing, or any other modern profit-making enterprise.

BMW is INCREASING, not decreasing marketing spend. It is trying to reduce spend per customer in NA because it can be more efficient with its marketing budget, not because it wants to reduce it. The reason? It operates a global budget and has more efficient uses for marketing dollars elsewhere. And, BTW, the lease program increases marketing efficiency rather than decreasing it. BMW lease customers are ~20% more loyal than purchase customers, which is a big savings in marketing costs.

Since this is a bit off topic for this thread, I'm going to start a new thread on this topic since it has come up a number of times. I'll also post data there.
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Old 10-05-2011, 12:03 AM
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Thanks for posting those numbers - wow Mercedes sure sells a lot of E-classes. Interesting that there are almost twice as many 3 series sold as there are 5 series while for Mercedes there are approximately the same number of C- and E-class vehicles being sold.
Yeah, even crazier is that before this month, which includes the facelifted C-Class (thus giving the C a little spike), the E has outsold the C-Class almost every month since its launch!

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I guess E-Class sales include: sedan, convertible, coupe, wagon, plus diesel and AMG versions.
It would be interesting to see the numbers for E Class sedan vs F10 sedan.
I'm not sure what's included in the E's Sales, and I don't think the E63 is in there, and also the 5 GT is obviously included in the 5's Sales, but I've been told by people with "Inside Information"/employed by BMW that the E-Sedan indeed outsells the 5 Sedan month after month in the U.S, since the W212 came out. The E60 handily outsold the W211 during their Production runs, so it's actually reversed this time. I also do believe that worldwide however, the 5 leads in sales, including EU I believe, where the 5 GT actually does participate the 5's Sales numbers quite a bit (Euro's love weird looking Wagon/Hatchback things ). Also, worldwide, Audi as a brand is *already* closing in on the top Sales spot between the 3, showing how dramatic a difference the U.S and world Markets are (not sure about the A6's worldwide numbers yet).

As for the YTD this year VS last year, last year still included the E60 for half the year, which obviously the W212 crushed. This years Sales are totally accurate via the two cars.

One also has to take into account that Sales are usually their most inflated during a cars first full year out, and the fact that the one year older E (mind you, with the now-old powertrains with worse statistical HP and MPG) is still fending the brand new/first year F10 off, whilst reversing from the W211 to E60 generation, has got to be quite a feat to M-B.

Im also really curious about who offers more incentives. BMW is always the King of that, but M-B has caught up in a major way. It's not hard to get some MAJOR money thrown at an E-Class, or various M-B. Seems these guys are tooth and nail regarding providing such incentive to move the units in this segment. I like it when I'm a buyer, but have to admit that some of these "blowout pricing" is unbefitting of both brands - Luxury/Prestige brands - and doesn't say much confidence in the resale/realistic residuals of their cars.
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Old 10-05-2011, 05:32 AM
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Not surprising that the E-class outsells the C-class. When my wife in the market for a new car we test drove the current (pre-facelift) C-class and the E-class (W211). The C-class was aweful. It felt only a bit nicer than my wife's 2000 Pontiac Grand Am.

As for the W212 selling so strongly I think MB has a slight advantage on price point.
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Old 10-05-2011, 06:41 AM
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The 5-Series does have a cheaper entry point with the 528i though, and a huge MPG advantage which is much more important to buyers in this segment than HP (proof in the E350's sales), so I'd actually say the cost factor should side with the 5.

I agree about the C. Greatly built, but the interior of the pre-facelift is an embarrassment, I can't believe M-B signed off on that.
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'13 F10 BMW 535i Sport : Jet Black/Black-Anthracite : Premium & Technology Packages/Sport Auto Trans/Camera/Park Distance Control/Heated Seats/Tinted Windows/Blacked Out Markers/Performance Spoiler.

Ex M-B's: '11/'10/'06 E350's w/ AMG Sport Package, '02 S500 w/ Every Option.
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