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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > 5 Series > E39 (1997 - 2003)

E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #1  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:34 AM
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M54 vacuum tubing ... what diameter ... what brand ... what material ... what length?

I'm tracking down a persistent lean condition and am at the point where I need to replace the set of vacuum hoses on my M54 engine ...

Q1: Does a complete vacuum hose kit exist?

I've never bought vacuum hoses before ...

Q2: Should we buy only the BMW part number or will your basic auto-parts store vacuum hose do (or should we seek a certain brand and/or material)?

For example, today, this hose literally crumbled in my hands as I inspected it for leaks:
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Last edited by bluebee; 11-02-2011 at 08:35 PM. Reason: Changed the title because I found out the difference between a hose (one material) and a tube (multiple) and a pipe (rigid).
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  #2  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:42 AM
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I'm going to guess we need about a foot of the thinner vacuum hose, and at least a half-foot of the thicker vacuum hose ... and maybe even a foot or so of the heater hose ... shown in this picture ...

Q: Do you have advice as to what size (OD/ID? length?) and material to purchase to replace all the vacuum hoses in the M54 engine bay?

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  #3  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:50 AM
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For the vacuum hoses above, it would be nice if you guys can let me know if auto-parts store hoses are OK (and what size/material to buy).

In addition, I found what 'appears' to be a crack in the lower fitting of the main intake tube ... which ... for now ... I temporarily taped with electrical tape ... until I figure what to do about it.

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  #4  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:17 AM
Chisum Chisum is offline
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Hi Blue

Take a sample of the hose you need to your local auto parts store they will sell you what you need. I think the vacuum hose you get at your local store is better then what BMW put on the car. Just my opinion.

Chisum
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  #5  
Old 10-12-2011, 06:25 AM
ElwoodBlues ElwoodBlues is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I'm tracking down a persistent lean condition and am at the point where I need to replace the set of vacuum hoses on my M54 engine ...

Q1: Does a complete vacuum hose kit exist?

I've never bought vacuum hoses before ...

Q2: Should we buy only the BMW part number or will your basic auto-parts store vacuum hose do (or should we seek a certain brand and/or material)?

For example, I this hose literally crumbled in my hands today:
I replaced that same hose when doing the VANOS job, just because it cracked open from bumping it, in basically the same spot as yours. I took the old one in, and the guy at Autozone looked at how small the piece was and just gave me some replacement hose for free. If your doing a whole bunch, you probably won't be that lucky.
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  #6  
Old 10-12-2011, 10:13 AM
poolman poolman is online now
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You need to go back behind the intake on the driverside and replace the hose's back there as well. One of the hoses go to the one that has cracked on your sas valve in your pic--another goes to a valve behind the intake, if the one in the pic is bad, you can bet the one behind the intake is also. You will need to remove the cabinair duct on that side and a small mirror and flashlight to see whats going on back there. While there check the vacuum caps that are on the back of the intake also, they can fail with all the heat that accumalated back there.
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  #7  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:15 PM
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doru doru is offline
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Check #4 - the back part. The front side in your pic is already shredded


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  #8  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:30 PM
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Dealer carries it, they sell it per meter length. The new version has braided nylon cover over the rubber. I don't remember how much, but it wasn't that expensive.

You may want to to those hoses on the rear end of the engine as well, as others have suggested.

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
I'm tracking down a persistent lean condition and am at the point where I need to replace the set of vacuum hoses on my M54 engine ...

Q1: Does a complete vacuum hose kit exist?

I've never bought vacuum hoses before ...

Q2: Should we buy only the BMW part number or will your basic auto-parts store vacuum hose do (or should we seek a certain brand and/or material)?

For example, today, this hose literally crumbled in my hands as I inspected it for leaks:
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  #9  
Old 10-12-2011, 12:46 PM
poolman poolman is online now
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I replaced all of my small hoses with the braided type--lasts forever that stuff does.
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  #10  
Old 10-12-2011, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisum View Post
Take a sample of the hose you need to your local auto parts store they will sell you what you need.
That was actually (much) harder to accomplish than it at first seems!

First, I went to Autozone. In the parking lot, I removed the vacuum hoses. I had to destroy them to get them off ... but ... in the parking lot of the auto parts store, I hadn't yet realized I had reached an impasse.

Unfortunately, Autozone did NOT have any right-sized vacuum hoses in stock. Neither did their sister store (by way of phone call). Autozone 'did' have fuel and heating system hoses; but not vacuum hoses - which he tried to sell me - but I was unsure so I passed on the offer.

Now I was stuck with no hose on the SAS valve, and no hoses on the F-connector after the MAF in the air intake tubing. The Autozone guy said the engine wouldn't run, but it did.

I then drove to a couple of hardware stores; they had 'generic' rubber hoses; but I didn't want to risk the wrong material - since it didn't say 'vacuum' hose.

Finally, I bought the closest thing I could find at O'Reilly's.

BTW, I had these codes, in this order, when I arrived at Autozone:
  • SET:
    • P0300 BMW 62 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
    • P1353 BMW 243, Misfire Cylinder 6 with Fuel Cut-Off
    • P1085 BMW 203, Fuel Control Limit Mixture Too Lean (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
    • P1351 BMW 242, Misfire Cylinder 5 with Fuel Cut-Off
    • P0171 BMW 227, System Too Lean (Bank 1)
    • P0174 BMW 228, System Too Lean (Bank 2)
  • PENDING:
    • P0300 BMW 62 Random/Multiple Cylinder Misfire Detected
After clearing them, and driving about 5 miles to O'Reilly's with no SAS or F-connector hoses, I had the following:
  • SET:
    • P0171 BMW 227, System Too Lean (Bank 1)
    • P0174 BMW 228, System Too Lean (Bank 2)
  • PENDING:
    • P1083 BMW 202, Fuel Control Limit Mixture Too Lean (Bank 1 Sensor 1)
    • P1085 BMW 203, Fuel Control Limit Mixture Too Lean (Bank 2 Sensor 1)
Getting tired of driving around without any vacuum hoses connected, I bought the following hoses. Note: I found the vacuum cap deteriorated, so I added that to the mix after the fact.
  • CRP P3340 Thermoid Windshield Washer & Vacuum Tubing
    • $3.49 + 8.75% tax for 6 feet of 5/32" vacuum tubing
  • GAT 27053 bulk vacuum tubing
    • $1.29 + 8.75% tax for 1 foot of 3/8" vacuum tubing
  • MTM 41050 Assorted Vacuum Caps
    • $4.99 + 8.75% tax for a half-dozen variously sized caps
In hindsight, I 'should' have checked with the dealer to see what they had in stock because, at this point, I have very little confidence that I bought the right rubber hoses.

Following up, after driving another dozen miles or so, the only code I had was a P0174 pending ... so I'm not out of the woods just yet!

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Last edited by bluebee; 10-12-2011 at 04:35 PM.
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  #11  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:02 PM
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For SAS valve
3.3mm hose x length (1/4" is close fit)

04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,3X1,75
04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,3X1,8
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...03&hg=11&fg=45


For hose from fuel filter:
VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,5X1,8 (5/32 is close)
http://realoem.com/bmw/showparts.do?...18&hg=13&fg=10
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  #12  
Old 10-12-2011, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxragtop View Post
For hose from fuel filter:
VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,5X1,8 (5/32 is close)
Wow. I appreciate your checking up for me. I hope to leverage this to others with the M54 engine, so your effort won't be wasted.

Also, I had not realized this was a fuel-filter hose (since it 'seems' to come from the engine to the F connector).

Here is a picture of the two hoses (old and new) side by side. There 'are' markings on the old hose; but I don't know what they indicate:



Quote:
Originally Posted by gtxragtop View Post
For SAS valve
3.3mm hose x length (1/4" is close fit)
04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,3X1,75
04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,3X1,8
From your research, I can see I made a mistake.

The SAS valve flexible rubber hose (which broke in half in my hands) went about 4 inches over to a harder thinner more rigid 'plastic' hose (called the "vacuum pipe"), which also broke at the tip (inside the flexible rubber hose).



Looking at the realoem diagram, I see now that the thinner more rigid "vacuum pipe" is what I broke; and, I can see that I 'missed' a hose at the other end of that vacuum pipe!
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  #13  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:15 PM
kmorgan_260 kmorgan_260 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chisum View Post
Hi Blue

Take a sample of the hose you need to your local auto parts store they will sell you what you need. I think the vacuum hose you get at your local store is better then what BMW put on the car. Just my opinion.

Chisum
I agree. Have never had a problem with the hoses I get from Napa or Advance Auto.
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  #14  
Old 10-12-2011, 05:22 PM
Chisum Chisum is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
Wow. I appreciate your checking up for me. I hope to leverage this to others with the M54 engine, so your effort won't be wasted.

Also, I had not realized this was a fuel-filter hose (since it 'seems' to come from the engine to the F connector).

Here is a picture of the two hoses (old and new) side by side. There 'are' markings on the old hose; but I don't know what they indicate:





From your research, I can see I made a mistake.

The SAS valve flexible rubber hose (which broke in half in my hands) went about 4 inches over to a harder thinner more rigid 'plastic' hose (called the "vacuum pipe"), which also broke at the tip (inside the flexible rubber hose).



Looking at the realoem diagram, I see now that the thinner more rigid "vacuum pipe" is what I broke; and, I can see that I 'missed' a hose at the other end of that vacuum pipe!
I got hose #4 from the dealer for $12. I tried using hose I got from the auto parts store but the hard plastic hose keep cracking at the junction because it was so brittle.

Chisum
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  #15  
Old 10-13-2011, 06:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by poolman View Post
check the vacuum caps that are on the back of the intake also, they can fail with all the heat that accumulated back there.
I'm very unfamiliar with this part of the M54 engine ...

I only saw one vacuum cap; it was on the driver's side of the engine, at the top rear of the engine; and, just as you said, it was in sad shape; so I replaced it as shown below.

Q1: What was that vacuum cap capping anyway?


Q2: I only found one; did I miss any other vacuum caps?

Note: We need to itemize all the vacuum hoses & caps so the next person doesn't have to guess wrong, like I did.



Unfortunately, the Realoem diagram doesn't show what the part number or size is for the vacuum cap:
- Engine => Vacuum control => AIR PUMP F VACUUM CONTROL

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Last edited by bluebee; 10-13-2011 at 06:56 AM.
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  #16  
Old 10-13-2011, 07:27 AM
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Together, let's attempt to create a parts list, for others to more easily benefit from.

Unfortunately, the Realoem SAS diagram brings up more questions than it answers.

Q1: What does a hose measurement of 3.3X1.75 or 3.3X1.8 mean?
(Is that the OD & ID in millimeters? Where is the length written?)

Q2: Why were two different hose sizes for #04 (i.e., 3.3X1.75 & 3.3X1.8) replaced with a single hose of undetermined size (i.e., #04 11657803732).
Note: The same phenomenon happened to hose #07.

Q3: What is the part number & size for #9, the vacuum cap?

Q4: Given these strange workings, is Realoem actually correct in giving the same part number for the two hoses listed as #4 and the two additional hoses listed as #7?

Notwithstanding those questions, for others to benefit, here's the best guess I can come up with at a vacuum hose parts list for the SAP system:
  • 1st piece: From the SAS valve to thin plastic pipe (size 3.3X1.75 or 3.3X1.8 or 3.3X1.8?)
  • 2nd piece: From the thin plastic pipe to the electrical valve (size 3.3X1.75 or 3.3X1.8 or 3.3X1.8?)
    • 04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK ? 11657803732 $16.43
  • 3rd piece: The thin rigid plastic pipe along the passenger side of the engine (size unknown?)
    • 03 VACUUM PIPE 1 11727574490 $27.94
  • 4th piece: From the electrical valve to non-return valve (size unknown?)
  • 5th piece: From the non-return valve to the engine (size unknown?)
    • 07 VACUUM HOSE BLACK ? 11657803732 $16.43
  • 6th piece: Vacuum cap on the driver side of the engine rear (size unknown?)
To the tribe: Would others who know much more than I do please flesh out the unknowns so that we can come up with a parts list for others to easily follow in our footsteps?
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  #17  
Old 10-13-2011, 10:55 AM
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I don't understand the dilemma...
Just buy the OEM replacement hoses.
No guess work, no measuring....
And, the OEM replacement hoses are cheap, and can be found at the dealer, or a good vendor.
If you want to create a thread about finding specific vacuum leak area, great...
But,....
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  #18  
Old 10-13-2011, 12:46 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason5driver View Post
the OEM replacement hoses are cheap, and can be found at the dealer, or a good vendor
Hmmm.... that may work ... but if the nominal prices in Realoem are any indication, it will cost three hundred dollars to replace all the vacuum hoses at Realoem prices. Double and even triple that if my experience at the Silicon Valley BMW dealerships (San Jose, Mountainview, Fremont) are any example.

Just the five tiny SAS-related hoses would cost $61 + about six dollars tax at Realoem nominal prices shown in the diagram below:
Then add $25 nominal dollars plus $2.50 tax for the two 'sucking jet pump' vacuum hoses, as shown in the diagram below:
And then add $92 plus $9 tax for the ccv-related hoses as shown in the diagram below:
Then add $56 + $5 tax for the two fuel tank breather lines (i.e., the big vacuum hose connected to the MAF-area F connector) as shown in the diagram below:
Add another $40 + $4 tax for the two fuel filter related vacuum lines (i.e., the small vacuum hose connected to the MAF-area F connector) as shown in the diagram below:
Without even adding up whatever inevitable hoses I missed ... the net is ... a whoppingly huge $300 dollars at Realoem nominal prices to replace just the vacuum hoses that I can find myself.

My three Silicon Valley BMW dealers (San Jose, Fremont, & Mountainview) typically charge twice to three times the Realoem prices ... so ... that's between five hundred and a thousand dollars just to replace the vacuum hoses that I've identified - for just the hoses!

Jason: I may have missed something big here (and it wouldn't be the first time).

Please explain:
Q: How could replacing just these hoses at these nominal prices possibly be a good deal at the BMW dealer?

Last edited by bluebee; 10-13-2011 at 12:51 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-13-2011, 01:44 PM
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Jason was probably reffering to the #4 hoses in this diagram you posted:


The reason is you also provided the pic with the broken rubber hose. Probably these 2 hoses are your problem.
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  #20  
Old 10-13-2011, 02:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by doru View Post
The reason is you also provided the pic with the broken rubber hose. Probably these 2 hoses are your problem.
Oh. OK. Well, even 'those' #4 & #7 hoses in red below are about $35 ($16.43 + $16.43 + about $3) tax at nominal Realoem prices.

I can't imagine my local BMW dealers (San Jose, Fremont, & Mountainview) not charging way MORE than that $35 for just those hoses.

So, I can't see the solution being the dealer in any case; but I'll let others answer that because I'd be perfectly happy if dealer math actually worked out (as it does for the wiper blade refills for most of you, for example).

I've tried to color all the necessary replacement hoses in the diagrams below.

What M54 vacuum hoses are we missing?




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Last edited by bluebee; 10-17-2011 at 09:41 PM.
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  #21  
Old 10-13-2011, 11:23 PM
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For the record, I added up the cost of the hoses over here just now:
- Might we be able to list, with pics (realoem diagrams ok) of ALL E39 vacuum lines?

Quote:
Originally Posted by bluebee View Post
To that end, here is, as far as I can construct, the list of those generic vacuum hoses above:

Engine => Vacuum control => AIR PUMP F VACUUM CONTROL
  • 04 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3.3X1.8 11657803732 $16.43 (two pieces)
  • 03 VACUUM PIPE 1 11727574490 $27.94 (one piece)
  • 07 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3.3X1.8 11657803732 $16.43 (two pieces)
  • 09 VACUUM CAP (no part number shown)
Fuel Preparation System => Fuel Supply => Fuel filter, pressure regulator
  • 13 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,5X1,8 11727545323 $14.82
  • 11 Hose 1 13321437801 $24.87
Engine => Vacuum control => Vacuum control - engine
  • 02 Hose elbow 1 11617503666 $8.17
  • 03 Hose elbow 1 11617547582 $17.25
Fuel Preparation System => Fuel injection system => FUEL TANK BREATHER VALVE
  • 03 fuel tank breather line 1 13907557924 $27.77
  • 04 fuel tank breather line 1 13907504303 $27.77
Engine => Cylinder Head => Crankcase-Ventilation/oil separator
  • 02 Vent pipe 1 11611432559 $25.73
  • 03 Connecting line 1 11617504535 $33.87
  • 04 Vent hose 1 11157532649 $15.37
  • 06 VACUUM HOSE BLACK 3,5X1,8 ? 11727545323 $14.82 (not on all E39s)
  • 07 Return pipe 1 11617504536 $33.87
Total vacuum hose nominal cost sans CCV system = $186.45 (assuming $5 for the vacuum cap); $310.11 if you add the CCV hoses; and $367.74 if you add the CCV valve (plus 8.75% sales tax).

QUESTION: Are there any 'other' M54 vacuum hoses that we missed?
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  #22  
Old 10-14-2011, 04:47 AM
timarnold timarnold is online now
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Just for clarification's sake, 3,5x1,8 Vacuum Hose means an ID of 3.5mm with a wall thickness of 1.8mm.
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  #23  
Old 10-14-2011, 07:46 AM
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bluebee bluebee is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by timarnold View Post
Just for clarification's sake, 3,5x1,8 Vacuum Hose means an ID of 3.5mm with a wall thickness of 1.8mm.
Thanks for clarifying. That means my prior hose-size calculations are wrong (since I had assumed it was ODxID as shown in red and blue below.

So a 3.5mm ID is in between 1/8" and 9/64" as shown in orange below.

Going to the autoparts store to mix & match still netted me the wrong size (5/32" instead of 1/8"; but at least the mistake isn't as bad as I first had feared.

Given the ID of 3.5mm, would you agree that the 'right' commonly available American-sized vacuum hose would be 1/8" ID? (and not the 5/32" that the auto parts store matched up for me)

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Last edited by bluebee; 10-14-2011 at 08:29 AM.
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  #24  
Old 10-14-2011, 08:15 AM
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doru doru is offline
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Bluebee. Poolman mentioned the 3.5 x 1.8 mm hoses from the dealer, are the updated part now, with a braid around them to protect the hose from heat, much like some O2 sensors have their electric wires protected - incidentally I replaced one of those "protected" wired O2 sensors from a different car I have last week, and the wires looked in pristine shape. Not sure if the rubber hose itself has been "updated", but BMW aknowledged that these hoses get heat damage in time. If I were you I would stick with the updated OEM part. I would also search (which you probably did) and find a cheaper alternative than the dealer. I purchase from the dealer when I'm in a bind, and yes the prices are horrendous.
But I am not sure you need to change ALL the rubber hoses you mentioned.
"Heat stroke" affected hoses are those skinny vacuum rubber lines.
The CCV rubber lines usually fail together with the CCV. In the CCV system, you can get "burned" with a higher gas consumption when the CCV clogs up or if the oil passage in the dipstick is clogged.
The rubber hoses that service the fuel lines (vacuum to fuel pressure regulator and fuel breather) are not in a hot environment. They can crack in time, but those fail rarely. The lines that service the jet pump - I don't know - honestly I saw the jet pump failing once in a while, but not the rubbers.

As a side note, when I changed the fuel filter, I had a hard time to replace the rubber lines - they got hardened, and they were hard to cut even with a utility knife (I had to make sure I don't nick the metal pipes or my hand). And I remeber I had to buy the hose by meter, and was not a bank breaker. You then have to cut it for the length you need and replace it. So it's not that p/n (11657803732) multiplied by 2.
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  #25  
Old 10-14-2011, 08:58 AM
timarnold timarnold is online now
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I used 1/8" tubing and it worked fine. Since it was a little tighter, I used a litle dab of o-ring lube (great stuff, BTW) to make it easier to install.
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