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E39 (1997 - 2003)
The BMW 5-Series (E39 chassis) was introduced in the United States as a 1997 model year car and lasted until the 2004 when the E60 chassis was released. The United States saw several variations including the 525i, 528i, 530i and 540i. -- View the E39 Wiki

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  #76  
Old 02-21-2012, 07:54 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EconoBox View Post
Steve, I really must thank you for taking the time to elaborate.

To recap, I will follow plastic tube #3 to the end (past the bracket behind the motor) and feel where it connects to a rubber vacuum hose. I will then follow that hose down past the electric valve #5, where it connects underneath. I will then see if I can replace this hose #4 blindly.

Next, now that I can feel the electric valve #5, I will find the other hose #7 that connects to it sideways (facing towards the inside of the engine bay....towards right/passenger side..)
I will follow that 2nd hose #7 to the 1-way valve it connects to #6. If I feel confident I will try to replace this one also, blind.

Lastly, now that I have my hand on the 1-way valve, I will try to feel the other #7 hose that comes out of the other side, and goes into the intake. Do you have a photo of where this nipple on the intake manifold is? (I'm not entirely sure I even know what the intake manifold even is)

If these hoses are even 1% petrified, there is no chance in hell this will work. I spend an hour trying to scrap a plastic tube clean, while staring at it and the top of the engine way, and FAILED !! 0% chance in am slicing a tube with a utility knife, BLIND. I wonder if all this is stupid to replace. The 2 other vacuum hoses I spent 2 hours replacing today did NOT need to be replaced. This is 11 years and 120k miles in. "If it ain't broke..." I have a teapot sound but so far, it has not been the 2 intake boots I replaced or the 2 vacuum lines I've already replaced. I guess a smoke test should have been the first step, but I had no idea it would be this much work to replace.

I think you have it right. I'm not sure how much trouble it will be to remove the hoses.

here are some photos:





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  #77  
Old 03-03-2012, 08:50 AM
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This is a very nice write-up. It answered questions for me. I'm not sure of one thing.

History:
My mechanic replaced all vacuum hoses and blocked off the Cabin air temp sensor because it was a massive vacuum leak. I think either there was an "air restrictor" in the line near where the hose connected to the intake manifold or he put the hoses in the incorrect position, if that matters.

First Picture:
I don't know what angle this was taken from but it looks like the hose to the one way valve is where my hose to the cabin temp sensor is and, in my case, the 3.5 that is blocked off goes to my one way valve.

Second Picture:
This looks like what I can feel for the one way valve connection and capped off 7mm, but my cabin temp vacuum hose connects below the two about halfway between. In this pic I see what looks like a wire (more so than a hose) connecting straight up to where that would be but it's not visible because of the larger wires in front of it.

Third Picture:
The back of my intake manifold. The hose without writing on it goes in through the firewall. You can see the one way valve on the other hose.

Forth Picture:
My cabin air temperature sensor. I think maybe Canada used a slightly different system as most references to the temp sensor seem to place it in the center console. There's just no way should the cabin hose be able to run wide open as the sensor is 100% passive by design.

So, Does it matter where the hoses connect to the intake manifold? If so, what's correct?
Did he chuck something out that restricts the air flow?

Thanks -Bob
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  #78  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:21 AM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Bob.

Those first two photos are mine. As you can see, there is no vacuum hose attached to the second nipple on the intake manifold. I agree that the cabin air temperature sensor you have must be specific to your Canadian model.

I am not certain, but I think that both of those vacuum ports have a direct pathway to intake vacuum pressure. I think they are equivalent.

I measured the vacuum at the 7.5mm nipple as over 20" Hg at idle on my car. That is a pretty strong vacuum, and it would seem that there might be considerable flow through that hose if it is not restricted.

That said, I have no idea how the cabin temperature sensor works on your car. I would be surprised if there is no one-way valve on that line. Otherwise there would be a direct passage from the intake manifold to the cabin. Of course, that one-way valve might be integral to you cabin temperature sensor.
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  #79  
Old 03-03-2012, 09:34 AM
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Thanks Steve. I can see now that those two are actually the same. The angle hides the 3rd connection from view. My hoses are reversed, but from what you say it makes no difference.
I did find a forum on another site from 2008. It went something like this:

........

Member "B": Your restrictor is probably missing

Member "A": Do you have the part number?

Member "A": Never mind, I found it.

I managed to contact "Member "A" and he had sold the car and doesn't remember a thing. (So close...)

Member "B" is no longer a member.

I take this as a strong indication a part was discarded in error (not his only error, BTW).

I hope someone on "Bimmerfest" has a parts manual that shows this part and it's location. I cannot find it in any on-line manual.

Thanks again! -Bob
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  #80  
Old 03-03-2012, 10:12 AM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Bob,

I assume you have the HVAC system with dials, not the automatic system. If so, that system is called the IHKR. That might help search for the part.

BTW, what problem are you having?

Steve
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  #81  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:09 AM
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JimLev thought IHRA, I have no idea how I'd know. Yes, dials.

I know the sensor is used to maintain a constant cabin temp and I understand why a small air flow would help. I would like to have it working as it did before the mechanic did whatever he did. I also now get SAP codes p0491 and p0492. I get the codes everytime with the hose connected to the sensor and once in a while when It's capped off.

I hope tomowwow is as nice as the forecast promises (it's hailing at the moment) so I can take a look in the driveway. I hope to find a tee junction in the SAP line with a restrictor hanging cause that would mean that 3rd hose should have been there and the connection on the manifold should have been capped. This would explain the occasional SAP code with the sensor capped.

Last edited by idjit; 03-03-2012 at 11:10 AM.
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  #82  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:24 AM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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JimLev is usually right, so go with the information he provided.

You should check the vacuum hose that runs to the SAP valve. Other than that, the problem could be the electric valve, SAP valve or the air pump. My bet is that there is something wrong with the hose since your mechanic worked with that.

I don't understand why the mechanic would remove that hose rather than replacing it. It's not like you don't need the interior air temperature sensor.
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  #83  
Old 03-03-2012, 11:37 AM
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Easier to cap it off and call it bad, I guess. He did manage to charge me for a dash removal before he "solved" the issue by capping the hose. He didn't remove the hose. He capped it at the sensor. I have a feeling he may have removed all hoses and then reattached them from memory. The hose to the SAP valve was replaced. but I plan to check it all. Thank's to this site, I know what to look for everywhere except for this climate hose and I have my suspicions here. Once I look it over if I don't see the obvious I think a visit to the dealer's parts department in Moncton might reveal a missing part.

This, if his fault, will be the third "coincidence".

One and a half months to replace vacuum lines, valve cover gasket, and a CCV job. No dealer in my city. Scared to take it back to him.

Last edited by idjit; 03-03-2012 at 02:09 PM.
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  #84  
Old 03-03-2012, 12:06 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Dash removal? Sounds like he didn't know where to look for the problem.
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  #85  
Old 03-03-2012, 01:06 PM
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I would have looked where I was doing the work for my error. Thanks, Steve, for your help and I don't know if you are aware, but I think you are the only person in the world that has posted pics of the intake manifold vacuum connections. Trust me, I searched.

BTW, JimLev has been extremely helpful to me also and others have pitched in (other threads). I admire the people on this forum that offer their help. When this is solved I will post the results.

Last edited by idjit; 03-06-2012 at 05:35 AM.
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  #86  
Old 03-03-2012, 03:10 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Sorry I couldn't be more help. I had no idea that some models have that sort of interior air temperature sensor, I would be interested in how you solve this problem. so please the resolution.
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  #87  
Old 03-03-2012, 05:32 PM
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Steve, you were mega-help. I know I have something odd, heater wise. I will post. I know how often threads end with no solution. Be patient, my friend, while I explore the solution. I'm convinced this is a resault of my mechanic's efforts.
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  #88  
Old 03-04-2012, 09:25 AM
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I've been checking things out today. He did indeed replace all the hoses. I had to be sure of that. An easy way to check the hose along the engine to the electric valve is to disconnect and blow on it. I also did this to confirm that the hose from the firewall was to the sensor. The one way valve is in the correct direction.

At the intake manifold I swapped the hoses so that the one way valve is where it is on Steve's picture and my heater sensor vacuum hose is where the 3.5 cap in Steve's picture is. I still had too much air sucking at the sensor and my SAP codes returned immediately so I've capped off the sensor again.

My next effort will have to be a call to the dealer, I think. I'm sure there must have been an air restrictor in the line.

One question. I can't imagine, but does it matter where the hoses go on the electric valve?

Here's a pic of mine.
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  #89  
Old 03-04-2012, 11:14 AM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I think it does not matter which side of the electric valve the hoses are connected to, but the hose from the white side of the one-way valve is supposed to go to the electric valve nipple that points to the right side of the car. The hose from the SAP valve attaches to the nipple that points to the back. The hoses cross at the electric valve.

So I assume you're thinking that the unrestricted flow through the interior temperature sensor reduces the vacuum so that there is insufficient vacuum to operate the SAP valve?
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  #90  
Old 03-04-2012, 11:33 AM
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Yes, something like that. I was hoping to find the restrictor on the line to the SAP because with the sensor capped I'm getting the SAP codes occasionally. Uncapped I get them every time. I was hoping to kill two birds with one stone (actually I don't intentionally kill things except biting bugs). I had no SAP codes prior to him replacing hoses.

My electric valve seems to have an nipple on the right side and one pointing to the front of the car. In my pick you can almost make out a right angle on the end of the hose. I'd love to disconnect it to have a closer look but I'm worried I'd never get it back in place. I could not blow air through the line so I know it's not leaking.

I agree that it probably doesn't matter which nipple they are on. It's just a valve. If it mattered I doubt the one way valve would be there.

Last edited by idjit; 03-04-2012 at 11:35 AM.
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  #91  
Old 03-04-2012, 02:25 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I think I've posted this before, but you might want to look at this webpage.

Those SAP valves are notorious for failing, but if it was OK before the mechanic worked on it, then he probably screwed something up. Since he replaced the vacuum lines, I'd trace them all of the way from the intake manifold to the SAP valve. There's a small plastic pipe that runs along the right side of the valve cover. On my car that pipe also curves around the back of the valve cover a=toward the electric valve. A couple of weeks ago, a friend and I replaced the VCG on my e39 and his e46. We found that plastic pipe on his e46 broken at the curve. That's an item to check.

Of course the real test is to check the vacuum on the line at the SAP valve on cold start.
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  #92  
Old 03-04-2012, 03:17 PM
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Thanks Steve, This is great! It explains why my EV seems backward and confirms the hoses are on correctly. I've verified the hoses, but now I can test components. I'm going to start with the non-return valve because it's easy to reach and I don't want to run the car if it's bad. Then the APV.

Question: So after confirming the APV is blowing and while it still is blowing I pull the vacuum hose and feel for exhaust coming out?
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Old 03-04-2012, 03:26 PM
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In addition to my last post...


I just found something interesting after two weeks of searching: http://www.hiperformancestore.com/Motronic.htm

It's a 535i but it the exact same setup. I wish there were pics but it says the vacuum line comes from under the airtake manifold straight to the restrictor which is at the sensor. Would where the area where the non-return valve hooks on be considered "under the intake manifold"?

This means the little plastic adapter is the restrictor and the "hiss" must be normal. The computer knows about this controlled leak so it's not an issue. I don't understand why we didn't hear it before the work. We didn't have any obvious vacuum leaks. He did this while replacing the CCV. I think maybe when the CCV clogged, the same pressure that blew the valve cover gasket may have popped some old hosing. I read this could happen.

Thinking when I first saw these codes. He had hooked the purge valve and temp sensor wires to each other (reversed) as they are keyed the same. We drove it about 4 days with no codes and then the car cranked and would not start P0604. We had it towed in. He was forever telling me it was the computer and I had to buy a new one and tow the car to the dealer in Moncton for programming. I insisted he check his work because I found forums that showed shorts causing the P0604 and pointed out his wiring error (which he denied even with the printed pictures on the seat). For two days I have no idea what he checked and it was the DME relay ($46.00). When I got it back I hooked up the air temp sensor and saw the codes right away. Just about every cold startup. When I capped the hose of I get the codes now and again.

These codes were not there for the 4 days before the tow back in. Is it possible that if I hook this back up and be patient that the car will "re-learn" the intentional leak?

EDIT: UPDATE!!
I just found another site that says there should be a metal restrictor with an (about) 0.5mm passage shoved inside the vacuum line at the intake manifold. It talks of a larger hose coming from somewhere down lower, which would indicate there may be something open down below. It's not the exact same car though so maybe not (E28) but it describes the same sensor. This would agree with my much earlier mention of a site that said a restrictor would be missing if you hear a hiss. It also explains how it was easily discarded. I hope in both the case of "no restrictor" and "no controlled leak" it would be normal to see the SAP codes. Sounds like a stretch, but I'll let you know. I suspect I will need to order as I'm sure the hoses would have been long discarded.

Here's the site;
http://forum.roadfly.com/threads/622...(for-archives)

I will be calling my mechanic in the AM.
I'd still like to know;
So after confirming the APV is blowing and while it still is blowing I pull the vacuum hose and feel for exhaust coming out?

Thanks Steve.

Last edited by idjit; 03-06-2012 at 05:33 AM.
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  #94  
Old 03-04-2012, 04:47 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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Wow, that's a great article you found. It confirms exactly what you expected. The problem is going to be finding that part. My guess is the mechanic was chasing a vacuum leak and started throwing parts at the problem. He probably didn't know there was an orifice in the vacuum hose and replaced the old vacuum hose with a standard vacuum hose with the orifice.

In that webpage I linked, he refers to the SAP valve as the APV. That's the silver device that sits on the right side of the exhaust manifold. The large hose from the air pimp (SAP) connects to the APV. The small vacuum line also attaches to the APV and actually operates the valve.

This is how the system works as I understand it. During cold start, the ECU energizes the SAP and the electric valve (EV) which allows vacuum from the intake manifold to be applied to the APV. This opens the valve to allow the air from the SAP to enter the exhaust valve. The ECU verifies the air injection (because this is part of the emissions controls) by watching for a lean condition at the oxygen sensors.

I'll assume you know how to assure there is vacuum being applied to the APV. The APV can fail open or closed. With vacuum applied and the large hose removed, the APV should be open, therefore you will feel exhaust gas coming out the large port. If there is no exhaust gases from the port and you can assure that there is vacuum applied, the APV has failed (does not operate). You will also need to check the APV with no vacuum applied. The valve should be closed and no exhaust gasses exiting the large port. If there is no vacuum applied and there are gasses exiting the port, then the APV has failed open and should be replaced.

You should be able to test the APV at any time by disconnecting the hoses and applying a vacuum from a vacuum source. That should open the APV and you will feel exhaust from the large port. when you release the vacuum, the APV should close and exhaust should no longer come from the port.

At lease that's the way I think it should be tested.
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  #95  
Old 03-04-2012, 04:52 PM
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Excellent, thank you. Thursday's supposed to hit 10C so I might be able to do this after work. Not much chance till then.
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Old 03-04-2012, 05:14 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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That article you linked was about an 1987 535i. I went to the realoem site and selected the archived catalogs. Then I selected e28, 535i from 6/1987. On the => Heater and Air Conditioning => Heater radiator page you'll see the interior temperature sensor. Item 12 on that page is listed as "Fuel Flow Reducer" part number 64 11 1 386 446. I'm reasonably certain that part is actually the air flow reducer since it's on the vacuum hose attached to the interior temperature sensor. This post seems to confirm it. I don't know if this is the right part for your car, but it might be close enough.
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  #97  
Old 03-05-2012, 04:57 AM
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Nice work! Look at this. Heres a site that still calls it a fuel flow reducer and lists all the models and years It seems to stop at 1993. The site I referenced earlier mentioned a large hose that had fallen off. Not the same on this engine, I don't think.

I suspect the restrictor still exists, but in a different hose. It may not even be availiable without the hose. I'm waiting to see what the service guy says. I think the odds of it not being thrown out are just about zero.

Last edited by idjit; 03-07-2012 at 03:08 AM.
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  #98  
Old 03-05-2012, 04:01 PM
Steve530 Steve530 is offline
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I'd wait for the service guy, too. That part may be really hard to find. It appears that the US models use the system that has a small fan that pulls air into the control panel. Your best bet may be to go to a Canadian dealer and tell them what you need.

Let us know what you find.
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Old 03-06-2012, 05:30 AM
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I found this:
X5 3.0i (M54)
64 11 1 384 459 (Fuel Flow Reducer) and the air temperature sensor looks more like mine, but again, that's not what I'm driving. My mechanic is seeking the part number for me.

Hopefully someone with a X5 3.0i (M54) will stumble onto this when he needs the part.

Last edited by idjit; 03-06-2012 at 06:47 AM.
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Old 03-06-2012, 10:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve530 View Post
You might try O'Reilly's part #47417 1/8" x 3 feet vacuum tubing.

1/8" vacuum tubing is 0.125". 3.3mm is 0.130". That's close.
Unfortunately it's 1/8 inch OD. Believe me, I wish it referred to the Inside Diamater.
When I first saw it, it was very obvious that it's thinner that what I expected.
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