Hope that Fantastic Steering Isn't Gone

Originally Posted by SilverX3

Check out f25 x3 threads
look like eps has quality issues

Could be an early manufacturing issue (on the supplier side). They happen especially when you launch a new product.

Carryover products are so much easier.

Apparently, in the very near future, there will be very few cars with good steering feel. The new Porsche 911 is getting lukewarm reviews concerning their electromechanical steering. Therefore, the new 3 Series won't be criticized too much, since there's hardly anything out there that's any better.

On the upside, I see that the new M5 has hydraulic steering. I would bet BMW will do this for the new M3 as well.

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...rst-drive.html

Originally Posted by edmunds inside line

But once you've adjusted to the utterly horizontal cornering attitude, you'll find yourself wondering what Porsche did to the 911's once-sublime steering. Don't get us wrong: There's enough steering feel and weight to prudently guide the 911 at insane velocities. But this isn't the same feeling we're used to. Nor is it one we'd prefer.

That's because the 2012 Porsche 911's steering is fully electromechanical. It utilizes two sensors — one to measure inputs from the driver and one to measure inputs from the road — and metes out electrically motivated assist according to a Porsche-specific software calibration. We hesitate to call it numb, but it's far from the granular, feelsome feedback we've experienced elsewhere — even in other 911s. Effort, too, is on the light side.

How much this matters to you will depend on how great an importance you place strictly on steering feel. Because, remember, the response is there. And it is stunning.

http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...n=awdailydrive

Originally Posted by Autoweek

What is it?

It's the latest Porsche 911, the iconic sports car from the iconic sports-car maker. Everything is new except the drivetrain, and even that is a little bit new. The car is longer, wider and lower than the current model and goes farther on every gallon of gasoline thanks to stop/start technology and a function that decouples the engine when coasting. It is also much more refined in ride and handling, limiting what information it transmits to the driver through the steering wheel and through the seat of the pants. Whether that ends up feeling numb or not depends on your perspective and setup preferences.

What is it like to drive?

The thing here is how much feedback you want and what form you want that feedback to take. Purists will decry the new 911 and say it's numb, but others will like the sophisticated chassis and suspension that filters out noise vibration and harshness that you don't need

The 911's EPS unit is a ZFLS unit, just as most of the BMW ones are. It's a Belt Driven system as well.

Originally Posted by PhilH

Apparently, in the very near future, there will be very few cars with good steering feel. The new Porsche 911 is getting lukewarm reviews concerning their electromechanical steering. Therefore, the new 3 Series won't be criticized too much, since there's hardly anything out there that's any better.

On the upside, I see that the new M5 has hydraulic steering. I would bet BMW will do this for the new M3 as well.

http://www.insideline.com/porsche/91...rst-drive.html



http://www.autoweek.com/article/2011...n=awdailydrive

I have to say that Edmunds is not my first choice for accurate enthusiasts reviews. The second does not specifically discuss the Porsche EPS.

My 911 has adaptive steering. I don't care for it. I like the same consistent steering feel no matter what speed I'm driving. My 328i E90 has perfect steering.

First drive of the 2012 3 Series by Motor Trend:
http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...#ixzz1dutPoB00

Originally Posted by Motor Trend

Fans of BMW's once legendary steering feel will mourn the passing of the fuel-thirstier hydraulic assist. Our test car had the optional variable-ratio electric-assist rack, which provides a 14.5:1 ratio on-center, quickening to 11.2:1 as the wheel passes about 100 degrees in either direction. The effort and heft feel natural enough, but on these smooth, dry roads it transmits no wiggles or twitches to suggest subtle variation in the grip level of the road surface, and the ratio transition feels unnatural in the tightest corners.

Basically steering suppliers have created a better system that doesn't transmit additional feedback to the driver (like wiggles) and this is bad?

It's like ABS and Fuel Injection. People hated them when they came out. They got over it.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

Basically steering suppliers have created a better system that doesn't transmit additional feedback to the driver (like wiggles) and this is bad?

It's like ABS and Fuel Injection. People hated them when they came out. They got over it.

Yes, wiggles, ABS, and fuel injection are all good! Hopefully, we'll be able to accept the new system and move on. Or, I may just drive my E90 and E60 indefinitely.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

Basically steering suppliers have created a better system that doesn't transmit additional feedback to the driver (like wiggles) and this is bad?

It's like ABS and Fuel Injection. People hated them when they came out. They got over it.

Are you being sarcastic? ABS and FI were improvements over the previous systems. So far EPS has not shown to be an improvement for a sporty car over a hydraulic system where you want to know exactly what is going on at the front tires when cornering. It's good because it's more fuel efficient but that's not enough for an enthusiast driver.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

Basically steering suppliers have created a better system that doesn't transmit additional feedback to the driver (like wiggles) and this is bad?

It's like ABS and Fuel Injection. People hated them when they came out. They got over it.

I think there will be a weening time where EPS systems will be improved. As the 80's were a dark time for the automobile in general (especially American cars,) perhaps now is the dark ages of steering. Another five or ten years and they will probably perform better than any HPS Could ever dream of.

If that turns out be false, then goddamn, we can land on the moon but can't come up with a better steering system???

Originally Posted by hpowders

My 911 has adaptive steering. I don't care for it. I like the same consistent steering feel no matter what speed I'm driving. My 328i E90 has perfect steering.

Oh how I love that steering of our E90. The leases are incredible at the moment, due to teh upcoming F30 so we just might go and get another while we still can...

Originally Posted by Bemo

Oh how I love that steering of our E90. The leases are incredible at the moment, due to teh upcoming F30 so we just might go and get another while we still can...

My 328i E90's steering is consistently heavy, regardless of speed. I like steering that requires effort and the E90 has it. Already, C&D downgraded the F30's steering, brakes and suspension.

I'm holding on to my E90 for dear life!! BMW no longer cares about driving enthusiasts. They are designing their new cars for status-seeking yuppies.

I too, love the steering in my E90. I also love the thick sport steering wheel.

Originally Posted by hpowders

My 328i E90's steering is consistent, regardless of speed. I like steering that requires effort and the E90 has it. Already, C&D downgraded the F30's steering, brakes and suspension.

I'm holding on to my E90 for dear life!! BMW no longer cares about driving enthusiasts. They are designing their new cars for status-seeking yuppies.

Step away from the curb dude. CD's short review was cryptic but all the others I've read say the F30 is just as good as in the past along with being slightly more comfortable and having more room and features. And since when hasn't BMW (and Audi, MB, Infiniti and yes Porsche) been making cars for status-seeking yuppies like you and I?

Originally Posted by hpowders

Already, C&D downgraded the F30's steering, brakes and suspension.

They only drove a 328i with the 8AT. The F30 335i comes with better braking hardware (larger rotors and 4 piston fixed calipers vs 2 piston floating in front), there will also be the M Sport option.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Are you being sarcastic? ABS and FI were improvements over the previous systems. So far EPS has not shown to be an improvement for a sporty car over a hydraulic system where you want to know exactly what is going on at the front tires when cornering. It's good because it's more fuel efficient but that's not enough for an enthusiast driver.

I work on EPS systems. Most of the complaints were valid for systems that came out 10 years ago not the current crop. Current Belt Drive EPS systems are superior to HPS systems nearly in every way.

Fuel Injection was a disaster in the 60's, and early ABS systems didn't improve cars (people attempted to pump the brakes anyway).

The point is that sometimes it's the driver that needs to change, not the machine.

Originally Posted by Killjoy

I think there will be a weening time where EPS systems will be improved. As the 80's were a dark time for the automobile in general (especially American cars,) perhaps now is the dark ages of steering. Another five or ten years and they will probably perform better than any HPS Could ever dream of.

If that turns out be false, then goddamn, we can land on the moon but can't come up with a better steering system???

True, about the 80's!

The problem with steering is how do you define "good" versus "bad" feedback. Each driver may have a differing opinion. With EPS there is still a learning curve on how to make it feel. You want it to be smooth and linear feel (so high level of assist at low speed, and lower assist at high speeds) but at the same time you don't want it to feel artificial and disconnected.

Advanced HPS systems already have a fair amount of additional hardware on them. You have variable racks (which change the ratio as you move further away from center, making your turning radius tighter) and you have speed sensitive systems (most BMWs have this, called Servotronic, it regulates the level of assist based on speed so you have lots of assist in the parking lot and reduced assist on the highway).

The biggest complications are that a hydraulic system has kinematics in it that draws the steering back to center when you apex a turn. EPS systems actually "drive" the wheel back to the center with a return function. This return function is also speed sensitive so the faster you go (and the farther you are way from center) the faster it tries to return. This may feel different to you versus the hydraulic system and in fact this is why I think most people dislike EPS. It feels different, not worse, not better, just not the same.

Originally Posted by hpowders

My 911 has adaptive steering. I don't care for it. I like the same consistent steering feel no matter what speed I'm driving. My 328i E90 has perfect steering.

Does your 911 have a variable or constant ratio rack?

You actually dislike linear feel and would rather it be heavier at low speed and light at high speeds?

I personally think a linear feel in the wheel is better, you always know regardless of speed the amount of force needed to move the car in a specific direction.

Both of my current cars are HPS and straight ratio racks, the Vette has speed sensitive steering the GTO does not. I prefer the speed sensitive Vette to the non-speed sensitive of the GTO.

Originally Posted by jwac

They only drove a 328i with the 8AT. The F30 335i comes with better braking hardware (larger rotors and 4 piston fixed calipers vs 2 piston floating in front), there will also be the M Sport option.

Yeah. I give up. The next 3 Series, I'm going all the way up to the 300 hp engine.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

Does your 911 have a variable or constant ratio rack?

You actually dislike linear feel and would rather it be heavier at low speed and light at high speeds?

I personally think a linear feel in the wheel is better, you always know regardless of speed the amount of force needed to move the car in a specific direction.

Both of my current cars are HPS and straight ratio racks, the Vette has speed sensitive steering the GTO does not. I prefer the speed sensitive Vette to the non-speed sensitive of the GTO.

The one thing I hate regarding my 911 is the variable steering. It's so damn wishy-washy at low speeds, but excellent on the highway.

The steering in my 328i E90 is so much better-uniformly heavy, no matter what the speed. That's what I like. I drove a Cayman S and a Boxster and they both had similarly wonderful steering like my E90. WTF did Porsche do variable steering to the 911 for? My guess is the 911 is intended for an older consumer. A shame. I feel like trading in my 911 to get the terrific steering in the Cayman S.

Originally Posted by hpowders

The one thing I hate regarding my 911 is the variable steering. It's so damn wishy-washy at low speeds, but excellent on the highway.

The steering in my 328i E90 is so much better-uniformly heavy, no matter what the speed. That's what I like. I drove a Cayman S and a Boxster and they both had similarly wonderful steering like my E90. WTF did Porsche do variable steering to the 911 for? My guess is the 911 is intended for an older consumer. A shame. I feel like trading in my 911 to get the terrific steering in the Cayman S.

You'd hate the 2012 then.

They have an EPS with a Variable Ratio Rack. So you have a different turn in near center versus the ends, and the entire speed sensative system (like all EPS's).

Another product will have a similar gear to the 911, and I've driven that one it's quite nice IMHO.

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

You'd hate the 2012 then.

They have an EPS with a Variable Ratio Rack. So you have a different turn in near center versus the ends, and the entire speed sensative system (like all EPS's).

Another product will have a similar gear to the 911, and I've driven that one it's quite nice IMHO.

I heard the 911 will be getting electronic steering too, like BMW cars.

It's like I'm living a nightmare! I'm keeping my E90 with its perfect, heavy, consistent steering for as long as I can. It just may be irreplaceable!

Originally Posted by LS2 MN6

The biggest complications are that a hydraulic system has kinematics in it that draws the steering back to center when you apex a turn. EPS systems actually "drive" the wheel back to the center with a return function. This return function is also speed sensitive so the faster you go (and the farther you are way from center) the faster it tries to return. This may feel different to you versus the hydraulic system and in fact this is why I think most people dislike EPS. It feels different, not worse, not better, just not the same.

First, thanks for your input on this. I've been curious about many aspects of EPS, and you've helped clarify. I have a 2010 Acura TSX with EPS, and the numb steering, IMO, prevents it from being a fully realized sport sedan.

The steering is nicely weighted and has a perfectly linear response, two positive aspects of EPS you've noted in your posts. But the Acura system transmits virtually no information from the tire contact patches into your hands, and it's especially numb on center. This prevents the "locked in" feeling I crave, which produces extra confidence in many driving situations, like high speed lane changes.

Part of the problem is the weak return to center, which you just explained. My Acura is better in this respect than my dad's Ford Fusion, but it still bugs me. The new Ford Focus is better still, which perhaps reflects the evolution of EPS. I wonder whether the need for EPS to "drive" the wheel back to center is exactly what eliminates so much road feel. The "wiggles" mentioned before -- one hallmark of good steering feedback -- are simply filtered out because the road surface imperfections don't prompt the EPS to "drive" back and forth. I assume EPS could be tuned for this, and hopefully the system in the new 3 Series has been.

The steering in the 5 Series has been universally panned. Even Consumer Reports got in the act. This new steering is now in the F30 3 Series. Inside Line panned it.

My advice to folks who love driving and what BMW used to be: hang on to your E9x for as long as possible. You may never see its likes again.

Originally Posted by hpowders

The steering in the 5 Series has been universally panned. Even Consumer Reports got in the act. This new steering is now in the F30 3 Series. Edmunds panned it. Car and Driver panned it.

My advice to folks who love driving and what BMW used to be: hang on to your E9x for as long as possible. You may never see its likes again.

My advice for folks: drive for yourself and make up your own mind. Just because it doesn't give you a forearm workout like the E9X doesn't mean it's not good.

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

My advice for folks: drive for yourself and make up your own mind. Just because it doesn't give you a forearm workout like the E9X doesn't mean it's not good.

I don't believe that will be possible. Why? Which version of the F30 328i do you think will be a demo at your typical BMW dealer? Modern or Luxury. This is what the typical consumer will want to drive. You think just for us they will have an M sport version? Good luck in your search.

They may have two F30 328i's, one in Luxury and one in Modern. If they have a Sport version, it will most likely be a 335i.

I have a feeling if you want a 328i with M Sport, you will be ordering "blind" without being able to audition the car first. I for one, couldn't do that.