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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
The E9X is the 4th evolution of the BMW 3 series including a highly tuned twin turbo 335i variant pushing out 300hp and 300 ft. lbs. of torque. BMW continues to show that it sets the bar for true driving performance! -- View the E9X Wiki

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  #1  
Old 10-24-2011, 06:53 AM
thewowfactor thewowfactor is offline
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Wheel Width Question - Performance

Hello people!

Cars and performance are not my area of expertise but I was wondering if someone with more knowledge on the subject could help me out.

I have a 2011 335i X Drive Coupe with the M Package.

The Tires are 18". The Wheel Width is 8.0 in the front and 8.5 in the rear.

My question is do you lose performance if you purchase rims that are non staggered, or a different size? For instance front and rear that are all 8.5's or all 8.0's.

I've also seen 8.5 fronts and 9.5 rears.

I really like the M6 replica wheels and it seems very difficult to find these rims in 18"and when I do find them they are either non staggered or a different size mentioned above.

These rims would be on my summer set of tires so I would not like to lose performance.

Thank you so much for your help!

Anthony

Last edited by thewowfactor; 10-24-2011 at 08:18 AM.
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  #2  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:22 AM
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Welcome to bimmerfest, Anthony!

It's not really a case of "losing" performance as much as a case of slightly changing the handling characteristics of the car. Wider tires in the rear give the car a bit more understeer, which suits the non-enthusiast or less-skilled driver. They also give the car a performance look that many like.

Some will disagree with me, but I think that a square (non-staggered) setup is just fine from a performance point of view.

Quote:
Originally Posted by thewowfactor View Post
I have a 2011 335i X Drive Coupe with the M Package.

The Tires are 18". The Wheel Width is 8.0 in the front and 8.5 in the rear.

My question is do you lose performance if you purchase rims that are non staggered, or a different size? For instance front and rear that are all 8.5's or all 8.0's.

I've also seen 8.5 fronts and 9.5 rears.

I really like the M6 replica wheels and it seems very difficult to find these rims in 18"and when I do find them they are either non staggered or a different size mentioned above.

These rims would be on my summer set of tires so I would not like to lose performance.
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  #3  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:33 AM
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I hate to disagree, but I have to disagree. Take a look at ANY performance vehicle and you will see they all have staggered set up and all their tires are FAT.
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  #4  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:33 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMC View Post
Welcome to bimmerfest, Anthony!

It's not really a case of "losing" performance as much as a case of slightly changing the handling characteristics of the car. Wider tires in the rear give the car a bit more understeer, which suits the non-enthusiast or less-skilled driver. They also give the car a performance look that many like.

Some will disagree with me, but I think that a square (non-staggered) setup is just fine from a performance point of view.
No argument with you there. OP, for normal road use there will be extremely little perceptable difference. You would notice LESS traction on ice, slush and snow with the WIDER tires. Now if you want to talk track usage the thread will light up with a hundred opinions, all good but all different.
For those of us running staggered setups or wider tires (or both) it is more about what we like the looks of than anything else. Until we are cornering and braking at the limits we have wasted our money.

DSX, certified second tier expert.

Last edited by DSXMachina; 10-24-2011 at 11:36 AM.
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  #5  
Old 10-24-2011, 11:54 AM
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I hate to disagree, but I have to disagree. Take a look at ANY performance vehicle and you will see they all have staggered set up and all their tires are FAT.
Ah, but the WHY is important. Performance cars are intended for dry handing and grip on the street. And in that limited realm, fatter tires are better, within reason.

(Of course stuff like weight, turn-in, and moment-of-intertia are downsides of bigger tires, so people who track cars are going to have a more complex answer, as the Goat already mentioned.)

Roughly, staggered wider tires get you:
* slightly safer handling in dry weather (less oversteer = less chance to spin)
* better 0-60 times (on RWD cars) due to more grip
* looks nicer

Square (narrower) tires get you:
* better ice/snow grip (but tire type is more important than size)
* easier tire rotation (if you want to rotate tires, that's a whole different issue)
* cheaper
* can swap wheels from front to back

None of these are deal-breaking for daily driving, to be honest. For non-performance daily driving, it is reasonable to say that a square setup won't hurt performance in any serious way.

To get back to your original question: if you like the M6 replica wheels that much, get them. I doubt you'll even notice a difference with a square setup.
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Old 10-24-2011, 01:22 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Squidget View Post
Ah, but the WHY is important. Performance cars are intended for dry handing and grip on the street. And in that limited realm, fatter tires are better, within reason.

(Of course stuff like weight, turn-in, and moment-of-intertia are downsides of bigger tires, so people who track cars are going to have a more complex answer, as the Goat already mentioned.)
Roughly, staggered wider tires get you:
* slightly safer handling in dry weather (less oversteer = less chance to spin)
* better 0-60 times (on RWD cars) due to more grip
* looks nicer

Square (narrower) tires get you:
* better ice/snow grip (but tire type is more important than size)
* easier tire rotation (if you want to rotate tires, that's a whole different issue)
* cheaper
* can swap wheels from front to back

None of these are deal-breaking for daily driving, to be honest. For non-performance daily driving, it is reasonable to say that a square setup won't hurt performance in any serious way.

To get back to your original question: if you like the M6 replica wheels that much, get them. I doubt you'll even notice a difference with a square setup.
If you keep giving out that kind of informed opinion I will be stuck a ''second tier expert'' for a long time. Good job.
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  #7  
Old 10-24-2011, 01:35 PM
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It seems that a lot of people here completely forgot why staggered tires are there to begin with. If you have RWD car you need those for better traction. It's hard to put 335i power down on 225 wide tires in rear.

Staggered set up does dumb down the car in turns though, so it gets a little more predictable and less fun.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by LMC View Post
Welcome to bimmerfest, Anthony!

It's not really a case of "losing" performance as much as a case of slightly changing the handling characteristics of the car. Wider tires in the rear give the car a bit more understeer, which suits the non-enthusiast or less-skilled driver. They also give the car a performance look that many like.

Some will disagree with me, but I think that a square (non-staggered) setup is just fine from a performance point of view.
I can't believe this! Yes everyone is correct!

I have a summer set staggered 18" sport Style 195 with Summer Bridgestone RFT then now for winter / rainy / light snow I have a non staggered (square) 18" Style 197 with A/S Conti DWS non RFT and love them.

Yes the traction issue and understeer is a definite factor but it all depends on where you want to drive.

Icy northeast or northwest will want square snow dedicated tires like the Blizzak or Xi2 Ice.
Dry southwest like me will want the square A/S wet, light snow and dry mixed tires.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:10 PM
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Rock36 Rock36 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thewowfactor View Post
Hello people!

Cars and performance are not my area of expertise but I was wondering if someone with more knowledge on the subject could help me out.

I have a 2011 335i X Drive Coupe with the M Package.

The Tires are 18". The Wheel Width is 8.0 in the front and 8.5 in the rear.

My question is do you lose performance if you purchase rims that are non staggered, or a different size? For instance front and rear that are all 8.5's or all 8.0's.

I've also seen 8.5 fronts and 9.5 rears.

I really like the M6 replica wheels and it seems very difficult to find these rims in 18"and when I do find them they are either non staggered or a different size mentioned above.

These rims would be on my summer set of tires so I would not like to lose performance.

Thank you so much for your help!

Anthony
Since most everybody hit the high points already regarding staggered tires vs. Square, the only thing I would bring up are the actual wheel weights.

If those M6 replicas are significantly heavier than your stock setup you will lose performance that way due more to the added unsprung mass; regardless if you are staggered or not. I only say that because I've noticed replica wheels can be pretty heavy in general compared to OEMs.

So additionally, I would also be concerned with what those m6 rims weigh compared to the ones you currently have.
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Last edited by Rock36; 10-24-2011 at 02:38 PM.
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  #10  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:11 PM
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Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
It seems that a lot of people here completely forgot why staggered tires are there to begin with. If you have RWD car you need those for better traction. It's hard to put 335i power down on 225 wide tires in rear.

Staggered set up does dumb down the car in turns though, so it gets a little more predictable and less fun.
* better 0-60 times (on RWD cars) due to more grip

I think Squidget's post summed it up.

This thread is pretty informative. I was contemplating the same question when researching the pros/cons of going to a rear tire with a 275 contact vs 255 or 265.
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  #11  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:19 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pat_X5 View Post
I can't believe this! Yes everyone is correct!

I have a summer set staggered 18" sport Style 195 with Summer Bridgestone RFT then now for winter / rainy / light snow I have a non staggered (square) 18" Style 197 with A/S Conti DWS non RFT and love them.

Yes the traction issue and understeer is a definite factor but it all depends on where you want to drive.

Icy northeast or northwest will want square snow dedicated tires like the Blizzak or Xi2 Ice.
Dry southwest like me will want the square A/S wet, light snow and dry mixed tires.
You 'understeer' guys have lost me. Wider rear tires result in understeer? So what? Are you suggesting that drifting or losing the back end entirely are better options?
Wider rear tires result in understeer only because they are hanging on when narrower tires would let go. That's a very good thing as anyone who has experienced snap oversteer can tell you.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about how we should all be learning to drift so we can handle anything that happens, let me tell you this; nobody drifts at the track. If they are drifting they have lost traction, are excessively wearing their tires, and are losing speed. Fail.
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Old 10-24-2011, 02:27 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
You 'understeer' guys have lost me. Wider rear tires result in understeer? So what? Are you suggesting that drifting or losing the back end entirely are better options?
Wider rear tires result in understeer only because they are hanging on when narrower tires would let go. That's a very good thing as anyone who has experienced snap oversteer can tell you.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about how we should all be learning to drift so we can handle anything that happens, let me tell you this; nobody drifts at the track. If they are drifting they have lost traction, are excessively wearing their tires, and are losing speed. Fail.
Or you can have my car that can still snap oversteer if the active Handling is turned off, and I have 325s in the back ha ha.... But yeah not fun.
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  #13  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:34 PM
thewowfactor thewowfactor is offline
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Thanks for the welcome and all the info guys. It gives me a better idea on the subject or I might be slightly more confused LOL!

Thanks Again
Anthony
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  #14  
Old 10-24-2011, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
Wider rear tires result in understeer only because they are hanging on when narrower tires would let go. That's a very good thing as anyone who has experienced snap oversteer can tell you.
On my first autox try, I experienced such snap oversteer during the first run, I can tell you it was fun

If I change the stock 225s to 235 square setup, how much improvement would I get in future autox? Or the difference would be minimal/non exist?
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Old 10-24-2011, 03:09 PM
bimmerfrk bimmerfrk is offline
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Originally Posted by BatteryPowered View Post
It seems that a lot of people here completely forgot why staggered tires are there to begin with. If you have RWD car you need those for better traction. It's hard to put 335i power down on 225 wide tires in rear.

Staggered set up does dumb down the car in turns though, so it gets a little more predictable and less fun.
If it gets dumber then you my friend are not going fast enough around turns!
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:14 PM
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If you keep giving out that kind of informed opinion I will be stuck a ''second tier expert'' for a long time. Good job.
Thanks! LOL, it's not like I'm saying anything that driving enthusiasts don't already know. I'm just good at summing up.

In general, I'm with the "oversteer is bad" crowd. A spin can be lethal, and takes incredible skill to escape. So much so, that I was taught to not even try. Get off the inputs, let the car leave the area in a straight line. Trying to correct can alter your course so that other people plow into you.

But let's keep perspective: even with square tires, a 3 series shouldn't oversteer much, if all. The amount of understeer car builders tune in is considerable. I'm betting that square tires still understeer under neutral throttle. I could be wrong, as I've never run a square setup on my 335, but that's my bet. Plus you've got your computer nannies in daily driving, and they are quick to prevent oversteer. So it's really not much of a worry.

(It's not like you are driving a 911. Spin city! wheeee!)

Lastly, I'll agree with DSX. Oversteering on the track is usually a fail. It is typically caused by "mixing inputs" in the corner. Either overbraking / throttle-lift on the corner entry, or excessive throttle on the exit.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:22 PM
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Lastly, I'll agree with DSX. Oversteering on the track is usually a fail.
This goes against EVERYTHING that I learned from Jeremy Clarkson about driving fast cars fast.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:31 PM
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This goes against EVERYTHING that I learned from Jeremy Clarkson about driving fast cars fast.
I stand corrected. I shall go do laps in a Reliant Robin as punishment.
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Old 10-24-2011, 04:34 PM
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I stand corrected. I shall go do laps in a Reliant Robin as punishment.
Just make sure you put training wheels on it for stability.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:12 PM
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In my first post in this thread (#4) I said that for normal road use there would be little discernable difference among the various setups. I stand by that statement. I'll even toss in most evasive moves at highway speeds and taking exit/entry ramps at a brisk pace. Not until a car is on a track will the driver really feel a difference in adhesion and maneuverability.

Quote:
Originally Posted by hyperzulu View Post
This goes against EVERYTHING that I learned from Jeremy Clarkson about driving fast cars fast.
Remember that the watchword of any TV show is do it right or do it wrong but never ever be boring. Drifting and snatch correcting oversteer is never boring.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:23 PM
dtc100 dtc100 is offline
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So people are in agreement tire width does not make much difference in performance in street driving. Rim protection and aesthetics are the concern.

But what if one does occasionally auotx (not on the tracks) the car? Square or staggered? Wide or very wide?
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:26 PM
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(snip)

But let's keep perspective: even with square tires, a 3 series shouldn't oversteer much, if all. The amount of understeer car builders tune in is considerable. I'm betting that square tires still understeer under neutral throttle. (snip)
I've tracked with a staggered setup and with a square setup, and have run four different brands of tires. With the nannies 'On' it is easily possible to understeer at high speeds in tight corners, however it usually results from driver error (too high a speed) and occurs at much higher speeds than for 'lesser' cars. (Example: My Saab 9-5 Aero does more plowing in corners than the average Kansas farmer.)
With DSC on it is virtually impossible to spin my 335 in a parking lot even at high speeds. The computer is smarter and faster than the driver. With DSC off, no problem spinning. Note that I'm talking about a sharp turning maneuver, not intentionally spinning like 'doing donuts'
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:36 PM
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Originally Posted by DSXMachina View Post
You 'understeer' guys have lost me. Wider rear tires result in understeer? So what? Are you suggesting that drifting or losing the back end entirely are better options?
Wider rear tires result in understeer only because they are hanging on when narrower tires would let go. That's a very good thing as anyone who has experienced snap oversteer can tell you.
Before anyone jumps down my throat about how we should all be learning to drift so we can handle anything that happens, let me tell you this; nobody drifts at the track. If they are drifting they have lost traction, are excessively wearing their tires, and are losing speed. Fail.
"Wider rear tires cause understeer" is a misnomer. What they should be saying is that "increasing rear tire width with respect to front tire width will cause more understeer than a 'square' setup with the same sizing." Increasing tire width increases traction and is a good thing.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:48 PM
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"Wider rear tires cause understeer" is a misnomer. What they should be saying is that "increasing rear tire width with respect to front tire width will cause more understeer than a 'square' setup with the same sizing." Increasing tire width increases traction and is a good thing.


Quote:
Originally Posted by dtc100 View Post
So people are in agreement tire width does not make much difference in performance in street driving. Rim protection and aesthetics are the concern.

But what if one does occasionally auotx (not on the tracks) the car? Square or staggered? Wide or very wide?
LOL, now we are getting into the area in which I earlier said there could be a hundred different opinions and they'd all be right. Since I don't want to end the thread with this post I'll refrain from giving my opinion.
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Old 10-24-2011, 05:56 PM
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With DSC off, no problem spinning. Note that I'm talking about a sharp turning maneuver, not intentionally spinning like 'doing donuts'
Since you have the experience tracking a 335 with square setup, then you can answer my bet! With square setup, what's the bias? Not sharp turning, but when the body is relatively settled. Say, a high-speed sweeper turn?

Over, under, or neutral steer?
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