Perspectives On the F30

Personally I always liked the size of the E39 5 series. Not too big and not too small. The new 3 series is about the same size or just a a little bigger with the exception of length. I think BMW really has a winner here.

Originally Posted by Slaymaster

Personally I always liked the size of the E39 5 series. Not too big and not too small. The new 3 series is about the same size or just a a little bigger with the exception of length. I think BMW really has a winner here.

That's what the White Star Line said about the Titanic.

Originally Posted by jzcrna

I would have never even thought of getting a four cylinder BMW. However, after watching the autocar video review I am sold.

I drove a 2.0T SAAB before my 335i and I have no hesitation about the ability to make a reliable, fun to drive 4-cylinder engine. My concern would be BMW's inadequate debugging of the N54 before selling it to customers (HPFP) and that if similar errors are made with this engine it could be another headache for buyers.

Still when you consider that BMW can't afford to screw this up (the 328i will be the highest selling model) I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. My bigger concerns are the actual size of the car now though I'm sure it rides a lot better than the E90 so perhaps pothole explosions are a thing of the past.

Personally I'm going to reserve judgment until I have actually driven one. The simple fact is that no matter how many reviews you read or watch no-one can give you a true sense for whether or not you'll like the car once you drive it.

Coming from an E46, I found the E9x to be a "squidgy around the middle". The only E9x I really connected with in a very visceral way was the M3. The 335is was close, but expensive for what it was, and the 335i I just found a bit... meh. I purchased an E60 for a short while, but got rather tired of that too and sold it earlier this year. Next week I'll be picking up my 1'er on lease... primarily done so I can let the "year one bugs" work themselves out of the F3x platform before I drive one. Once I do, I'll make a decision on whether or not this is the right car for me.

So far the reviews I've read have been rather mixed... particularly the Car & Driver review I found a bit worrying because that was one magazine I always saw as being incredibly BMW-biased. The fact they said anything even remotely negative is a bit of a concern... but again I'll wait and see. It's quite possible the worries about the steering will be another "early E46" issue where the steering ended up being modified after a couple of years along with a retrofit for the early E46'ers. For the next three years I'll drive my 1'er and keep looking at the F3x as a possible "next car", but I am not going to make any decisions until I've had a chance to actually drive one.

Originally Posted by Saintor

Totally misleading.

Believe it or not, turbo don't help on 5-60mph. The reason why they get good 0-60mph is because you can cheat at pre-compressing RPM like nobody would do in normal spirited driving.

For example, the Z4 N20 gets a great 5.6s 0-60mph and a ordinary 7.1s 5-60mph, same as a 528i N52. The 528i N20 should not do any better.

How does this make sense?

A 5-60 time should always be lower than a 0-60 time, given that 5-60 fits within 0-60.

I tend to agree with C&D's reviews after driving the cars myself, so I must concur-the C&D review doesn't bode well for me and the F30. When a car has perfect steering as my E90 does, why mess with it?

Originally Posted by hpowders

I tend to agree with C&D's reviews after driving the cars myself, so I must concur-the C&D review doesn't bode well for me and the F30. When a car has perfect steering as my E90 does, why mess with it?

Because fuel economy considerations dictate the decision. Same for all of the competition and even the newest 911.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Because fuel economy considerations dictate the decision. Same for all of the competition and even the newest 911.

Well if that's true, it's a shame.

Originally Posted by Inline Sixer

How does this make sense?

A 5-60 time should always be lower than a 0-60 time, given that 5-60 fits within 0-60.

Although it does seem counterintuitive, 5-60 is almost always higher. Browse around some car mag reviews and you will see this is almost always the case.

Originally Posted by Inline Sixer

How does this make sense?

A 5-60 time should always be lower than a 0-60 time, given that 5-60 fits within 0-60.

0-60 allows the tester to get maximum traction for the best hookup. You can rev the engine and slip the clutch while using the best traction control setting. 5-60 is just using the cars normal acceleration. Drop the hammer in 1st gear. It's more like what you'd see on the street.

Originally Posted by johnc_22

I drove a 2.0T SAAB before my 335i and I have no hesitation about the ability to make a reliable, fun to drive 4-cylinder engine. My concern would be BMW's inadequate debugging of the N54 before selling it to customers (HPFP) and that if similar errors are made with this engine it could be another headache for buyers.

Still when you consider that BMW can't afford to screw this up (the 328i will be the highest selling model) I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. My bigger concerns are the actual size of the car now though I'm sure it rides a lot better than the E90 so perhaps pothole explosions are a thing of the past.

The Saab 9-3 2.0T is actually a terrible example of a 4-cyl turbo, at least when mated to that car's autotragic. The motor is laggy, the tranny is laggy, all in all it's a poor powertrain. Mediocre at best.

I'll check out the N20 hoping it doesn't remind me or the SO about the 9-3 in any way

Originally Posted by 1985mb

..mated to that car's autotragic.

lol!

The only problem that I have with the car (before having driven it) is BMW implementing model lines. It really limits my choices as I was hoping to order Msport with Saddle and Anthracite.

Originally Posted by 1985mb

The Saab 9-3 2.0T is actually a terrible example of a 4-cyl turbo, at least when mated to that car's autotragic. The motor is laggy, the tranny is laggy, all in all it's a poor powertrain. Mediocre at best.

I would say that it was no worse than the current E90 328i loaners I've had with a GM slushbox when not using DS mode, though yes there was some turbo lag. I chipped mine to 286 lb/ft of torque and it was a fairly fast car from a roll. To this day I wish I'd gotten it with a manual, but now I have the 335i so . . . no worries.

Originally Posted by hpowders

That's what the White Star Line said about the Titanic.

I think in general, a competent mainstreamification of an iconic product leads to a massive sales success. The long term loss of that iconic image is another story.

Originally Posted by E90Alan

Although it does seem counterintuitive, 5-60 is almost always higher. Browse around some car mag reviews and you will see this is almost always the case.

So if identical cars were in a drag race where a car at full stop where to suddenly accelerate as soon as the other car at 5mph was aligned, and with both a full throttle, the car from a dead stop will win?

I realize too that the car at a dead stop will somehow have to hit 5mph at some point -- and if you click on a stop watch from that point, the time ought to be less than the 0-60.

Very confusing indeed. But I'll take your word for it. I am subscribed to both motortrend and car and driver, I'll keep an eye out for those numbers.

Originally Posted by Inline Sixer

So if identical cars were in a drag race where a car at full stop where to suddenly accelerate as soon as the other car at 5mph was aligned, and with both a full throttle, the car from a dead stop will win?

I realize too that the car at a dead stop will somehow have to hit 5mph at some point -- and if you click on a stop watch from that point, the time ought to be less than the 0-60.

Very confusing indeed. But I'll take your word for it. I am subscribed to both motortrend and car and driver, I'll keep an eye out for those numbers.

Think of it this way. The car that is going 5 miles/hour is rolling then the throttle is mashed, full acceleration starts at that point. A car going from 0-60 will have more momentum when it hits 5 mph so it is faster to 60.

Here's a link to an article that discusses the procedures:

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...-c-d-test-cars

Originally Posted by SpinZero

I think in general, a competent mainstreamification of an iconic product leads to a massive sales success. The long term loss of that iconic image is another story.

Mainstream sales success means changing the product to meet the desires of folks the product was not originally intended for. Hence, we get BMW "LUXURY" and "MODERN" models. It makes me sick.

Originally Posted by hpowders

Mainstream sales success means changing the product to meet the desires of folks the product was not originally intended for. Hence, we get BMW "LUXURY" and "MODERN" models. It makes me sick.

Very good point. To cater to the mainstream, BMW will have to address many complaints listed below:

Steering wheel is too heavy and "bumpy."

Suspension is too tight.

Engine is too noisy.

Tires tend to have excessive inner wear.

Why do I ever have to rev above 3,000 RPM?

How come the trunk does not fit a 4x8?

...

By the time BMW has addressed all of the above, the 3 will enjoy the best market share.

We will just have to move on to something else.

I have to give BMW credit on one thing, for standing firm on their principle, they will not waver from using RFTs.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Very good point. To cater to the mainstream, BMW will have to address many complaints listed below:

Steering wheel is too heavy and "bumpy."

Suspension is too tight.

Engine is too noisy.

Tires tend to have excessive inner wear.

Why do I ever have to rev above 3,000 RPM?

How come the trunk does not fit a 4x8?

...

By the time BMW has addressed all of the above, the 3 will enjoy the best market share.

We will just have to move on to something else.

I hear ya. In the future BMW may have to turn the M Sport Package into an 'M3 lite" package. Basically, all the performance and handling of the M3, but without the M3 engine. It'll definitely cost more than a 328, but they better leave us with an option without having to drop 60k.

Originally Posted by hpowders

Mainstream sales success means changing the product to meet the desires of folks the product was not originally intended for. Hence, we get BMW "LUXURY" and "MODERN" models. It makes me sick.

Well ok, let's be fair here. BMWs have been known as the official vehicle for the yuppies since like what, the 80's? I don't claim to be old enough to know this first hand, but I'm pretty sure the actual percentage of BMW owners that would consider themselves to be serious car enthusiasts has never been that high. The same goes for the Porsche. It's not that I don't get the general point that you make, but you make it sound like the 3er is a Lotus Elise.

I think it is certainly true that companies like Porsche and BMW has catered to the enthusiast community more, which has given them the reputations they currently enjoy. But of course selling cars only to the enthusiasts is a horrible business model, so it has to be a balancing act. Besides, let's not pretend like the needs of us "enthusiasts" do not at all coincide with the non-enthusiasts buyers. We all enjoy the rear seat space, ride comfort, and safety features to some degree, otherwise why not just get a Lotus?

Having said all that, I do worry that the F30 may have gone off the previous balance point and further towards the mainstream end. It will still be the sportiest car in the segment, but the way it goes about its business may have become too artificial. But then most reviews state that despite all the new gadgets, the driving experience still remains natural, so I hope that my worries are misplaced. I will miss the heavy steering that my E90 has, not because that's the only way that a steering can ever be good, but because I think that has been a unique character of the 3er in the past. But as long as the car drives well in its own right, I'm sure we'll eventually get used to it.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Very good point. To cater to the mainstream, BMW will have to address many complaints listed below:

Steering wheel is too heavy and "bumpy."

Suspension is too tight.

Engine is too noisy.

Tires tend to have excessive inner wear.

Why do I ever have to rev above 3,000 RPM?

How come the trunk does not fit a 4x8?

...

By the time BMW has addressed all of the above, the 3 will enjoy the best market share.

We will just have to move on to something else.

I have to give BMW credit on one thing, for standing firm on their principle, they will not waver from using RFTs.

I'm sorry but as usual you're totally full of crap. BMW has no intention of making the 3 series into a Camry. Do you even read the reviews or are you just being contrary for the hell of it? You make my grumpy 84 year old father seem like a saint.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I'm sorry but as usual you're totally full of crap. BMW has no intention of making the 3 series into a Camry. Do you even read the reviews or are you just being contrary for the hell of it? You make my grumpy 84 year old father seem like a saint.

And you sure sounded a lot more grumpier than me.

Originally Posted by dtc100

And you sure sounded a lot more grumpier than me.

My apologies but all you seem to do is complain and intimate the F30 is not much of a BMW even though the reviews say otherwise. I'm sure you prefer a rougher edged BMW like the e46 which is fine but as long as the driving dynamics are there isn't that the basis for what makes a great 3 series?

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

... I'm sure you prefer a rougher edged BMW like the e46 which is fine but as long as the driving dynamics are there isn't that the basis for what makes a great 3 series?

I'm firmly of the opinion that those who liked the E46 (myself included) are probably going to find themselves looking seriously at a 1'er or 2'er in the coming years. I am picking up my 135i next week (PCD!!!) because after I drove it, it felt a hell of a lot more like my old E46 330i than any E90 I had ever been in. As the 3'er has moved "up the ladder" so to speak, the 1'er has become more of an enthusiast's driving car to me.