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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #226  
Old 04-08-2012, 08:13 PM
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K-A K-A is online now
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The lighting is a "me-too" thing obviously, but the Ponton fenders are technically classically Mercedes, and thus IMO do give the E-Class some cool styling tones that add flavor to a car of this nature.

New M-B's can indeed look desperate, with the Designers efforts being worn on their grilles (literally), namely with the new CLS I think, however with the E, it follows a theme and owns up to it IMO. The GS looks bland and boring, yet has one or two areas where they try and give it "cool points". Just doesn't balance out as well I think, but it's still a much more overall muted and "laid back" design in terms of not looking so exaggerated, than the E-Class is, for better or worse.
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  #227  
Old 04-09-2012, 04:44 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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The latest salvo:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

Lexus wins
Audi is fastest.
Audi feels Japanese
Infiniti is a mess.
The BMW is a mini-7
The BMW feels as solid as a W124 or even a W126 Benz.
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  #228  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:14 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
The latest salvo:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

Lexus wins
Audi is fastest.
Audi feels Japanese
Infiniti is a mess.
The BMW is a mini-7
The BMW feels as solid as a W124 or even a W126 Benz.
Nice one take jabs at the Japanese and at Audi all in one line. Even though the reviewer didn't say the car feels like Japanese. Second funny how you like to say the Audi feels like Japanese and the Japanese won.
So in your summary you say only positive things about the BMW and nothing negative like the reviewers last line about the BMW "I know I can drive it fast, but I don't walk away dreaming of driving it again."
Fanboy much?

Why not be accurate?

Lexus wins
Audi is fastest
Infiniti a mess
BMW best luxury ride
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  #229  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:59 AM
jjsC6 jjsC6 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
The latest salvo:

http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/...luxury_sedans/

Lexus wins
Audi is fastest.
Audi feels Japanese
Infiniti is a mess.
The BMW is a mini-7
The BMW feels as solid as a W124 or even a W126 Benz.
Very interesting read in that four days ago I traded my '10 Lexus GS for a BMW 550 M-Sport. The comments in the test are why I bought the BMW. I live in the Houston area. Anyone who has never been to Houston let me tell you this. It's like the whole state of Florida. There is not an interesting twisty road within 50 miles of downtown Houston. I know this because every Saturday I go out on my motorcycle and find the closest curves. But I don't do that in my car. A solid, quiet ride but with still capable handling is my priority rather than the best car that can be thrown around in the curves

This test raved about the interior of the new Lexus. Functionally it may be fine, but in my eyes it is less cohesive and and not nearly as classy as the BMW. And on the outside the car looks like the outgoing GS from the side, more like a Hyundai from the back, and the front looks very contrived to send a message that the rest of the car never got.

Finally, I wanted more firepower in my new car (just sold a third car - 505 hp Z06 and I left a hp void in my garage). I find it odd that the very year Lexus decides to step up the fun factor in the GS is the same year they drop the optional V8 engine, when what they should have done is offered the 380 hp engine from the 460 in place of the neutered 340 hp version that has been offered the past few years.
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Last edited by jjsC6; 04-09-2012 at 12:24 PM.
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  #230  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:07 AM
The X Men The X Men is online now
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Originally Posted by Mikez38 View Post
I'll bet the Nav system is superior to BMW
Dont be so sure, the Lexus navi system locks out everything while in motion. If you or your passenger want to change or input destination or look for a POI, you have to pull over.
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  #231  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:52 AM
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The motortrend test is all well and good, and I don't disagree with the results. However, at the end of the day the exterior of redesigned GS is just kinda ugly
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  #232  
Old 04-09-2012, 08:06 AM
ksoze ksoze is offline
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Dont be so sure, the Lexus navi system locks out everything while in motion. If you or your passenger want to change or input destination or look for a POI, you have to pull over.
I would suspect those input changes could also be done with voice, as they should in a moving vehicle.

For the driver staring at a small screen, entering using the letter spin wheel or navigating through the multiple menus of the nav system, is dicey at best while driving. Not a fan of the Nav lock out limitation, but also not a fan of the clown running into me while staring at his Nav screen at speed.
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  #233  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:19 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
Nice one take jabs at the Japanese and at Audi all in one line. Even though the reviewer didn't say the car feels like Japanese. Second funny how you like to say the Audi feels like Japanese and the Japanese won.
So in your summary you say only positive things about the BMW and nothing negative like the reviewers last line about the BMW "I know I can drive it fast, but I don't walk away dreaming of driving it again."
Fanboy much?

Why not be accurate?

Lexus wins
Audi is fastest
Infiniti a mess
BMW best luxury ride
Actually it is YOU who are being the fanboy. Sorry, are you just mad that your Audi finished 3rd?

Nowhere did I say that Japanese was a bad thing. Sorry I described it as Japanese, but typically the knock against the Japanese luxury cars has been exactly what the reviewer said about the Audi, which is:

and, despite being the heaviest of the bunch, it came across a bit tinny, somewhat hollow, and pretty noisy.

I thought I summed up his comments pretty accurately, and without judgement.

I do not knock the Japanese cars. I own an Acura and have been very impressed by the Lexus. With all of the niggles on my car I'm considering swapping it out to the Lexus. I've said here before and I'll say it again that the Audi is a great car, and you can't go wrong owning one.

No, the BMW is not perfect by any mind. The comment "it's a mini-7" can run both positive (luxury) and negative (sport) so it was not meant to be only praise.
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  #234  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ksoze View Post
I would suspect those input changes could also be done with voice, as they should in a moving vehicle.
They can, and the voice commands are easier to use and flow better than the BMW. I'd say it ties the Audi. Also, only addresses are locked out, not POI's, IIRC from playing with it.

Plus, it has a service where you can call the concierge and they will send you the directions, on-star style. Not sure how long that works without paying, if at all, or if not forever.

In all, it's annoying it's locked out, but not likely to be a severe handicap.
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  #235  
Old 04-09-2012, 09:33 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
Actually it is YOU who are being the fanboy. Sorry, are you just mad that your Audi finished 3rd?

Nowhere did I say that Japanese was a bad thing. Sorry I described it as Japanese, but typically the knock against the Japanese luxury cars has been exactly what the reviewer said about the Audi, which is:

and, despite being the heaviest of the bunch, it came across a bit tinny, somewhat hollow, and pretty noisy.

I thought I summed up his comments pretty accurately, and without judgement.

I do not knock the Japanese cars. I own an Acura and have been very impressed by the Lexus. With all of the niggles on my car I'm considering swapping it out to the Lexus. I've said here before and I'll say it again that the Audi is a great car, and you can't go wrong owning one.

No, the BMW is not perfect by any mind. The comment "it's a mini-7" can run both positive (luxury) and negative (sport) so it was not meant to be only praise.
Well then you can also say the BMW drives like a Japanese car as traditionally Japanese cars don't handle or perform as well as the European counter parts. Just like what they said of the BMW 5er which was more or less outperformed by the Lexus. But I don't see you saying that about the BMW.
LOL at you thinking about me caring about the Audi coming 3rd. Do you care that the BMW came 2nd? No, because I would still rather own the BMW and Audi than the Lexus.
I guess we can agree that atleast you can't going wrong with owning either the BMW or Audi.
As for Japanese cars sounding tinny, I think you got it wrong. The lower end Toyota's and even possibly the ES350 might have a little of this characteristic the higher end Lexus do not exhibit this characteristic at all. My father who lives with me has the GS350 and it is a solid vehicle. Every bit as solid as the European cars I have had. The only difference is that it doesn't handle the same. It looks like Lexus has been able to solve this problem but the design aspect still eludes them in my opinion.
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  #236  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:01 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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If BMW wants to take on Benz and become the number one luxury brand and continue to compromise their sporting heritage in their volume cars and Lexus aims at filling the void after BMW noone would be happier than me. Who wouldn't like a real drivers car with the reliability and quality of Lexus? I would absolutely consider buying one if they offer a bit more interresting exterior design and a sportier interior. If the new GS drives like a modernized E60 as MT claims I'd take it over the F10 in a heartbeat. As to Audi, they missed the opportunity of a lifetime and had an open goal to beat BMW on their home turf but stumbled and missed the ball. Sorry but a stonking engine alone does not make a drivers car.

Hopefully Lexus's ambition here can fire up Acura as well and we can get a competition going between the two over the mid-size sports sedan segment. These two companies are very capabable in this area if they are motivated.

Last edited by solstice; 04-09-2012 at 10:13 AM.
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  #237  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:16 AM
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Needsdecaf Needsdecaf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If BMW wants to take on Benz and become the number one luxury brand and continue to compromise their sporting heritage in their volume cars and Lexus aims at filling the void after BMW noone would be happier than me. Who wouldn't like a real drivers car with the reliability and quality of Lexus? I would absolutely consider buying one if they offer a bit more interresting exterior design and a sportier interior. If the new GS drives like a modernized E60 as MT claims I'd take it over the F10 in a heartbeat. As to Audi, they missed the opportunity of a lifetime and had an open goal to beat BMW on their home turf but stumbled and missed the ball. Sorry but a stonking engine alone does not make a drivers car.

Hopefully Lexus's ambition here can fire up Acura as well and we can get a competition going between the two over the mid-size sports sedan segment. The companies are very capabable in this area if they are motivated.
I've recently driven a bunch of different vehicles, including the F30 and an E70 X5 with the Sports Activity package. Here's where I see the F10 lets the side down: steering and transmission programming. Here's why:

The E60/E70 had a much more immediate rack around center. Likewise the F30, which proves that you can have a much better experience with the EPS than you can in the F10. The F10 has a notable dead spot on center. When you actually get the car turning, you can feel it is precise and while not the latest in the world of feel, isn't completely remote (like the Lexus). Fix this, and there's about 75% of the E60 back.

The second thing is the transmisison. The 8 speed ZF really likes to hang on gears and is somewhat reluctant to downshift. Or perhaps it's just my car. Regardless, the sport mode is to frenetic. There should be three settings like in the M5: loaf / fuel economy, standard BMW and Attack.

I think the F10 LCI should address many of these problems.
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  #238  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:18 AM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If BMW wants to take on Benz and become the number one luxury brand and continue to compromise their sporting heritage in their volume cars and Lexus aims at filling the void after BMW noone would be happier than me. Who wouldn't like a real drivers car with the reliability and quality of Lexus? I would absolutely consider buying one if they offer a bit more interresting exterior design and a sportier interior. If the new GS drives like a modernized E60 as MT claims I'd take it over the F10 in a heartbeat. As to Audi, they missed the opportunity of a lifetime and had an open goal to beat BMW on their home turf but stumbled and missed the ball. Sorry but a stonking engine alone does not make a drivers car.
I think volume wise BMW is the number one manufacturer, no? As for $$ revenue wise MB may still be number 1 as they sell hell of a lot more S-Class and even E-classes worldwide.
Totally agree with you on the Lexus front. Nicer designed interior and exterior with the handling MT has described here and with the Lexus reliability and customer service would be a definite winner.
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  #239  
Old 04-09-2012, 10:36 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
I've recently driven a bunch of different vehicles, including the F30 and an E70 X5 with the Sports Activity package. Here's where I see the F10 lets the side down: steering and transmission programming. Here's why:

The E60/E70 had a much more immediate rack around center. Likewise the F30, which proves that you can have a much better experience with the EPS than you can in the F10. The F10 has a notable dead spot on center. When you actually get the car turning, you can feel it is precise and while not the latest in the world of feel, isn't completely remote (like the Lexus). Fix this, and there's about 75% of the E60 back.

The second thing is the transmisison. The 8 speed ZF really likes to hang on gears and is somewhat reluctant to downshift. Or perhaps it's just my car. Regardless, the sport mode is to frenetic. There should be three settings like in the M5: loaf / fuel economy, standard BMW and Attack.

I think the F10 LCI should address many of these problems.
I'd prefer to stay with BMW if they revert the 5 back to being a large higher quality 3 series instead of a small 7 since I have a long and good history with the brand but I don't think they can convert the F10 into that. It's just too big and heavy even if they address the steering, suspension and bring over the adjustable side-bolsters. How I would love to know what goals they have set for the next generation five...
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  #240  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:09 AM
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Gimme the fastest car IMO, but I'm glad that Lexus has finally gotten something right. They have finally figured out the "sport" part of the equation. Now they need to put in a respectable powertrain and fix the ugly exterior

It's not up there with the big boys until a proper (powerful) powertrain has been put in, like a V8, etc

Either way, congrats to Lexus for the GS' first win (it has lost to Audi at least twice so far), but now BMW (the F10 has been lost to C6/C7 A6 many times) and Audi need to get their **** together in the handling department because the F10 is due for an LCI very soon and the A6 will be facelifted in a couple years.
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  #241  
Old 04-09-2012, 11:21 AM
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From the article:

Base price / price as tested
GS350 53,465/ 58,800
535i 53,395 / 63,245
A6 3.0T 50,775 / 57,470
M37s 55,795 / 61,225

0-60 / 1/4 mi
GS350 5.4s / 14.0s @101.0 mph
535i 5.5s / 14.0s @99.3 mph
A6 3.0T 4.7s / 13.4s @102.2 mph
M37s 5.5s / 14.0s @99.6 mph

Shame the F10 is so damn heavy. It would blitz the GS with its 8 speed auto, but since it has only 6 speed, it only matches it. Next gen 5 series needs to be lighter. And damn, look at Audi. 4.7s is almost base 550i numbers. Can't wait to see tests of C7 S6 soon
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  #242  
Old 04-09-2012, 04:04 PM
baloo588 baloo588 is offline
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I am loving my new Lexus GS F-Sport. The exterior is simply the best. Very sharp yet elegant. The 5 was also very nicely redesigned compared to the E60 but failed to excite me or others in the family. The GS has gotten thumbs up and raves from everyone on my end. It drives a hell lot better than the 5. Either way both the GS and the 5 are the best of the midsize categories so enjoy it!
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  #243  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:16 PM
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The motortrend test is all well and good, and I don't disagree with the results. However, at the end of the day the exterior of redesigned GS is just kinda ugly
I knew the Lexus reminded me of something from my childhood but I couldn’t figure it out until I saw this. Good look for Star Wars fans though!
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  #244  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:50 PM
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I knew the Lexus reminded me of something from my childhood but I couldn’t figure it out until I saw this. Good look for Star Wars fans though!
Yeah seems to be the look they're going with. The interior seems pretty nice, and the trunk is nice and wide, and I'm sure it will be more reliable than a BMW, but darn it, it's kinda meh looking...



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  #245  
Old 04-09-2012, 05:57 PM
Nobrandfanboy Nobrandfanboy is offline
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The front end is ok but when you compare it to the rest of the car especially the rear end it seems like two different cars. The front is extremely aggressive and the rear is just so bland.
The previous GS was better designed exterior wise imo.
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  #246  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:10 PM
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The new ES looks much better executed and "together" than the GS which just comes off flat IMO.
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  #247  
Old 04-09-2012, 06:41 PM
richschneid richschneid is offline
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Just another stupid MT article commenting on the handling and fun to drive of a RWD 535i without IAS, ARS, and DDC combined. If someone wants a 535i that is the most fun to drive and the least like a 7 series then buy one properly equipped and stop these ridiculous comparisons to the GS F350. Sure that's a few buck extra and if you don't have any twisties to drive it on, such as in Houston or in Florida, then get the 535i without the handling options. If you want a car that has the traditional fun to drive aspects of BMW then get your 535i with the IAS, ARS, and DDS. These comparison tests of the 535i have to discuss this.
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  #248  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Needsdecaf View Post
The second thing is the transmisison. The 8 speed ZF really likes to hang on gears and is somewhat reluctant to downshift. Or perhaps it's just my car. Regardless, the sport mode is to frenetic. There should be three settings like in the M5: loaf / fuel economy, standard BMW and Attack.
Interesting -- my standard 8AT downshifts with no effort at all. It's so responsive, it's almost clairvoyant, IMO. I think they've actually fixed DS mode to almost perfection, compared to the super-holding DS mode in a couple of auto 3's I've been loaned. They held to almost 3000 rpm even with no aggressive acceleration. I'm also amazed how, even in D mode, if you hit the throttle hard because you think you're going somewhere, then have to back off suddenly, it holds the gear for like 3 seconds even with the throttle totally released. Very interesting algorithm indeed.
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  #249  
Old 04-09-2012, 07:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Nobrandfanboy View Post
The front end is ok but when you compare it to the rest of the car especially the rear end it seems like two different cars. The front is extremely aggressive and the rear is just so bland.
The previous GS was better designed exterior wise imo.
Totally agree. The old one looked quite good. The new one has no design coherence.

Interestingly the new ES looks much better than the new GS in terms of exterior design.
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  #250  
Old 04-10-2012, 04:30 AM
LoveTAH LoveTAH is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by baloo588 View Post
I am loving my new Lexus GS F-Sport. The exterior is simply the best.


Simply the best what, interpretation of some horror movie creature?
Glad you love it but it and the nissan m are the ugliest trash in the class.
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