Lexus GS350 F-Sport vs BMW 535i

I'll bet the Nav system is superior to BMW

Originally Posted by Mikez38

I'll bet the Nav system is superior to BMW

Maybe better or maybe just different. Something will need to be a sales gimmick as the new GS looks very "riced" out. I am not sure the conservative Toyota crowd will like it after the first 30 days .

Originally Posted by chuck92116

Maybe better or maybe just different. Something will need to be a sales gimmick as the new GS looks very "riced" out. I am not sure the conservative Toyota crowd will like it after the first 30 days .

Scared that your precious BMW might be bested by a Japanese car :P I don't understand people like you; I love bmw's but they need competition to stay on top. BMW has been lacking in a few areas; nav being a very big disappointment. While BMW has been renowned for their driving feel; they've been going downhill while other car manufacturers have been moving uphill. You can deny that all you want but multiple reviews don't lie. However there will always be brand whores who will buy anything with a BMW logo in it; and unfortunately BMW has been targeting those people more than they're targeting the enthusiast like they used to

Originally Posted by Mikez38

I'll bet the Nav system is superior to BMW

I have yet to see any nav system that isn't better than bmw's

Originally Posted by omaralt

unfortunately BMW has been targeting those people more than they're targeting the enthusiast like they used to

That's simply not true.

Times are different, laws are different, and you are correct that there is change. But lest you forget, there is an additional M in the lineup now.

There will be those that will never forgive that the 5 is not primarily a performance oriented sports sedan, but the truth is that if they kept inline with the physical growth (size) of the lineup then they would have priced themselves out of the means of their customer base.

Everyone seems to have their own definition of 'enthusiast', so I like the logic of a broader choice to find that car that fits your own definition. M's across the board are better. There are also more choices in luxury than a single line. There are also SUV's that offer some portion of the 'feel'.

It's smart business. Technology has allowed other car companies to get better also, and target specific markets and/or weaknesses of those who have traditionally been on top. How many cars targeted the 3? How many cars came close but were smaller/less expensive/etc?

Both sides of this argument are just plain wrong. The 5's aren't better, nor are they worse, but they are substantially different, geared to what was the 7 market of the past. You want a traditional 5 then look at a 3. You want a traditional 3, then look at the 1's. You want a luxury car with even less emphasis on performance, then maybe the 7 is right. Can't find anything in the lineup you like? Nothing says you have to buy a BMW.

Originally Posted by omaralt

I have yet to see any nav system that isn't better than bmw's

I am not surprised you haven't.

Originally Posted by omaralt

I have yet to see any nav system that isn't better than bmw's

I've just stepped out of a Toyota where I followed the boards as I do now that I have a BMW. The Toyota/Lexus NAV has been universally panned (almost the same system in most all the cars) with even the latest updates. Almost everyone prefers Garmin.

Looks like Toyota have stepped it up using Google Maps and BMW et al will probably not be far behind.

As for me, 99% of the time I am driving somewhere where I know I am going (even though I moved into Houston just three months ago) so although it's nice to see the pretty NAV display, it's not the be all and end all. I use Google Maps and send the address to my car. Toyota/Lexus can't do that yet.

Personally, I like the NAV and iDrive in my 2011 F10. Is it perfect, probably not.

When I buy a car, I want it to look attractive inside and out and be happy driving it. The GS350 fails outside and in. Looks like a derivative of various other cars. A teenager designed the front end and a the interior looks dated already. The Lexus 200h interior has this beat by a country mile.

Originally Posted by omaralt

Scared that your precious BMW might be bested by a Japanese car :P I don't understand people like you; I love bmw's but they need competition to stay on top. BMW has been lacking in a few areas; nav being a very big disappointment. While BMW has been renowned for their driving feel; they've been going downhill while other car manufacturers have been moving uphill. You can deny that all you want but multiple reviews don't lie. However there will always be brand whores who will buy anything with a BMW logo in it; and unfortunately BMW has been targeting those people more than they're targeting the enthusiast like they used to

Uh, the thing is ugly. The styling is very disjointed, the front end looks like a cartoon and the rear end is boring.

How does stating that make someone a BMW Fanboi?

I have an Acura in the garage next to my BMW, and shopped Lexus and Acura when I bought my 535i. I bought the best car for me.

That still doesn't change the fact that the front end of the car is a mess. It just is. A large reason I didn't make our garage a two-Acura one with a TL SHAWD is that that, too, is freaking ugly.

I will always hate japanese manufacturers for not being able to do something on their own. When the japanese will STOP stealing and the germans will better protect their products... then pigs will fly...

Originally Posted by gicamuci

I will always hate japanese manufacturers for not being able to do something on their own. When the japanese will STOP stealing and the germans will better protect their products... then pigs will fly...

Originally Posted by omaralt

Scared that your precious BMW might be bested by a Japanese car :P I don't understand people like you; I love bmw's but they need competition to stay on top. BMW has been lacking in a few areas; nav being a very big disappointment. While BMW has been renowned for their driving feel; they've been going downhill while other car manufacturers have been moving uphill. You can deny that all you want but multiple reviews don't lie. However there will always be brand whores who will buy anything with a BMW logo in it; and unfortunately BMW has been targeting those people more than they're targeting the enthusiast like they used to

Is your opinion based on actually checking out the NAV and drive on this new car?

Originally Posted by ozarkgolfer

I use Google Maps and send the address to my car. Toyota/Lexus can't do that yet.

Lexus does in fact already have a direct send to car option, Lexus has what they call eDestination which is substantially similar and provides essentially the same functionality. It's possible the new for the 2013 model year Lexus infotainment hardware and software may enable the (somewhat unreliable in my experience) Google Maps' "send to car" functionality, but their existing offering provides pretty much the same thing.

I'm glad I started this thread. Always good to see the brain dead zombies come out of their holes.

Originally Posted by Needsdecaf

Uh, the thing is ugly. The styling is very disjointed, the front end looks like a cartoon and the rear end is boring.

How does stating that make someone a BMW Fanboi?

I have an Acura in the garage next to my BMW, and shopped Lexus and Acura when I bought my 535i. I bought the best car for me.

That still doesn't change the fact that the front end of the car is a mess. It just is. A large reason I didn't make our garage a two-Acura one with a TL SHAWD is that that, too, is freaking ugly.

Ain't that the truth

Originally Posted by PeterC4

Ain't that the truth

The Japanese lack of a design heritage has long been their achilles heel.

What I found astonishing is that the Lexus GS does have a design heritage and all of the first 3 generations were good looking sleek designs, the third generation Lexus GS was probably the best looking car in its class - and Ian Callum cited it as one of the cars that inspired his design of the Jaguar XF as a 4 door coupe. After that, they threw that heritage out the window and created a disjointed design for this car. It's really quite a stupid mistake by Lexus.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

The Japanese lack of a design heritage has long been their achilles heel.

What I found astonishing is that the Lexus GS does have a design heritage and all of the first 3 generations were good looking sleek designs, the third generation Lexus GS was probably the best looking car in its class - and Ian Callum cited it as one of the cars that inspired his design of the Jaguar XF as a 4 door coupe. After that, they threw that heritage out the window and created a disjointed design for this car. It's really quite a stupid mistake by Lexus.

A lot of people said the same about the E60 5 Series and the E65/66 7 Series too. Both threw the heritage out of the window in terms of design, but both went on to be the most successful examples of the 5 Series and 7 Series to date. BMW knew it had to do something radical with the 5 and 7, and I suspect Lexus feels the same way. The GS redesign is quite likely to broaden the appeal of the car as it's sufficiently different from its predecessor, a car which while capable wasn't really close to the segment leaders in the areas where it counted. Here, Lexus has a competitive car and it's not as hamstrung by the past as a minor update of the S190/URS191 design would have been.

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

The Japanese lack of a design heritage has long been their achilles heel.

What I found astonishing is that the Lexus GS does have a design heritage and all of the first 3 generations were good looking sleek designs, the third generation Lexus GS was probably the best looking car in its class - and Ian Callum cited it as one of the cars that inspired his design of the Jaguar XF as a 4 door coupe. After that, they threw that heritage out the window and created a disjointed design for this car. It's really quite a stupid mistake by Lexus.

Moreover, not to rehash the previous comments, comparing the 5 series with all season tires and potential unsolved throttle delay will have its negative impact so I'm not sure about the absolute driving differences between these cars. Of course the GS has made excellent advancement but as we all know, day to day driving and long term maintainability of driving characteristics is different than a test day at the track. No doubt, the GS is a good car. I'd have to spend time in both to really appreciate the differences, but I just can't see myself driving that....thing.

The GS is a nice design. There is nothing objectionable about it. Very sporty and sleek. Actually looks more sharper in front then the 5 series. Acuras are ugly.

Disappointments:

Lexus' software engineering design taste remains poor. The graphics look like a 1990s website with overused gradients and aliased edges. Apparently they've learned nothing from Apple or any number of other nicer looking software UI designs available these days.

Showing something like the radio station frequency in the HUD is a waste of space and a distraction, at least for me. It's not directly related to driving, so IMO it shouldn't be in my field of view - the high mounted entertainment screen is a fine place for it.

Originally Posted by 2001S15

Disappointments:

Lexus' software engineering design taste remains poor. The graphics look like a 1990s website with overused gradients and aliased edges. Apparently they've learned nothing from Apple or any number of other nicer looking software UI designs available these days.

Showing something like the radio station frequency in the HUD is a waste of space and a distraction, at least for me. It's not directly related to driving, so IMO it shouldn't be in my field of view - the high mounted entertainment screen is a fine place for it.

I must admit there are certain Lexus models I think are quite attactive. The current IS sedan, and the current GS, and of course the LFA.

However, I don't think the design ques of the LFA really carry over that well to a sedan. It is like putting a Ferrari front end on 3 series. It looks like the new GS is being born out of politics and so be it. Perhaps they want a very aggessive look to give people a reason to buy the LS.

Maybe if they had two options like the 5 series. The standard and an "M" or "LF" version like they do on the IS.

This whole thread has caused me to ponder something. I loved the E39, and when the E60 came along I thought, "Bangle, what were you thinking?"

Then it dawned on me with this theory. The current F10 could have been the successor to the E39 and most likely was on the drawing board along with the E60 final design. However, Bangle had control and BMW design drifted for a few years. Although sales were quite high during his tenor.

Originally Posted by chuck92116

Then it dawned on me with this theory. The current F10 could have been the successor to the E39 and most likely was on the drawing board along with the E60 final design. However, Bangle had control and BMW design drifted for a few years. Although sales were quite high during his tenor.

Production lead times being what they are, it's far more likely than not that the F10 was signed off by BMW's board while Bangle was still at the helm.

Some also forget that it was Davide Arcangelli who took the lead on the design for the E60, and that it was Adrian van Hooydonk who designed the E65 7 Series - the car that many consider to be the nadir of the Bangle era... It's somewhat ironic that the man many see as the "savior" of BMW design is the guy who actually designed the car that many consider to be the most controversial of the "Bangle era" designs. Bangle no doubt called the shots and set the tone, that was his role, but the reality was that it wasn't his pen that drew the cars that are most associated with his tenure.

Either way, Bangle for me was the best thing that happened to BMW design for years, and I think things have and will continue to take a step back under van Hooydonk. For me, Bangle was the true visionary, the one with the bigger balls and the one who has made by far the biggest impact on car design.

Originally Posted by swajames

A lot of people said the same about the E60 5 Series and the E65/66 7 Series too. Both threw the heritage out of the window in terms of design, but both went on to be the most successful examples of the 5 Series and 7 Series to date. BMW knew it had to do something radical with the 5 and 7, and I suspect Lexus feels the same way. The GS redesign is quite likely to broaden the appeal of the car as it's sufficiently different from its predecessor, a car which while capable wasn't really close to the segment leaders in the areas where it counted. Here, Lexus has a competitive car and it's not as hamstrung by the past as a minor update of the S190/URS191 design would have been.

I would argue that the E60 was only successful because there are some people who want a BMW regardless of whether there are better cars for the money. Most of the guys who buy 528s on this board fall into that category.

I and many other I know took a hiatus from the brand because of that generation of BMWs.

Originally Posted by chuck92116

Maybe better or maybe just different. Something will need to be a sales gimmick as the new GS looks very "riced" out. I am not sure the conservative Toyota crowd will like it after the first 30 days .

Rather than being more conservative, I think Lexus should have been more bold with the design. The concept car was quite good looking. Then they toned it down.

The GS350 F-Sport should have been designed exactly like this Lexus-Sponsored SEMA design from Five-Axis. That would have drawn some interest from people who buy competing products. The Five-Axis version looks way better than an S-Line A6 (thought not an M-Sport F10 by any means).

Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot

I would argue that the E60 was only successful because there are some people who want a BMW regardless of whether there are better cars for the money. Most of the guys who buy 528s on this board fall into that category.

I and many other I know took a hiatus from the brand because of that generation of BMWs.

You could make that accusation at almost any of the past two to three generations of cars from the mid range brands - MB, BMW, Audi, Lexus etc - but it's just conjecture, and it's pretty condescending to position it the way you do.

The bottom line is that with cheap subvented leases and close to free money on cars you can buy at or below invoice, it's just as likely that the guys getting 550's could fall into that category too. Some will, and some won't - but there's no need to make such negative representations and sweeping generalizations about the 528 owners on the board.

I would argue that the E60 was successful because it was a great car, and because it continued the traditions of the E39 and prior and remained a great car to drive while simultaneously taking risks with the design. Arguments aside, the fact remains that sales remained extremely robust for a car that many thought would struggle due to the more radical redesign. Those risks demonstrably paid off.

Originally Posted by 2001S15

Disappointments:

Lexus' software engineering design taste remains poor. The graphics look like a 1990s website with overused gradients and aliased edges. Apparently they've learned nothing from Apple or any number of other nicer looking software UI designs available these days.

Showing something like the radio station frequency in the HUD is a waste of space and a distraction, at least for me. It's not directly related to driving, so IMO it shouldn't be in my field of view - the high mounted entertainment screen is a fine place for it.

I agree completely.

The thing I like about the navi in BMW is the way they look.

Everything from the design to the graphic looks great compare to other cars.

It's the little things.