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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #76  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:47 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
As the F10's Sales fell/softened last month and the E once again blew it out w/ over 5K models sold (F10 being in its first year which is traditionally its strongest selling and the E being a year older, actually beating its first year sales), similarly priced, apparently less aggressively incentivized, and with lower HP motors and worse MPG ratings, there surely objectively MUST be somethings about it that are better than "junk status" to a majority of shoppers in this segment, one would assume.
I think we are just a little biased, is all...
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  #77  
Old 12-02-2011, 10:53 PM
yogi799 yogi799 is offline
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The entry price for a 5-Series is actually lower than the entry of an E-Class. I don't think that's what's carrying the E-Class.
I actually applaud you keeping your cool with punches thrown here and there at your make, my friend.

I, too, hate MB (only their new SUV looks decent, can't even name the model), but I think we all welcome you here with open arms becuase of your open-minded attitude AND not taking offense at some of our posts. (That hasn't always been a case with dudes driving other cars and coming here to chip in).

Way to go brother! You're one of us (very soon, I suppose... when are you trading that piece of "junk" for the F10? - just kidding )



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Last edited by yogi799; 12-02-2011 at 10:57 PM.
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  #78  
Old 12-03-2011, 01:38 AM
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Stealth.Pilot Stealth.Pilot is offline
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
The entry price for a 5-Series is actually lower than the entry of an E-Class. I don't think that's what's carrying the E-Class.
Yes but when you compare apples go apples (comparably equipped cars) 5 is more expensive.

The E class is priced right. The 5 is over priced.
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  #79  
Old 12-03-2011, 04:39 AM
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Originally Posted by yogi799 View Post
I actually applaud you keeping your cool with punches thrown here and there at your make, my friend.

I, too, hate MB (only their new SUV looks decent, can't even name the model), but I think we all welcome you here with open arms becuase of your open-minded attitude AND not taking offense at some of our posts. (That hasn't always been a case with dudes driving other cars and coming here to chip in).

Way to go brother! You're one of us (very soon, I suppose... when are you trading that piece of "junk" for the F10? - just kidding )



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Lol. I guess I'm just waiting on this clunker to fall apart to give me the ultimate excuse to switch over!
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  #80  
Old 12-03-2011, 04:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Yes but when you compare apples go apples (comparably equipped cars) 5 is more expensive.

The E class is priced right. The 5 is over priced.
Well, I'm not so sure personally. The 2012 5er has a 4-banger which might give it a more "downmarket" impression to shoppers, but especially counting the 2011 528i, and considering the average shopper in this market cares MUCH more about MPG than HP (non V8 models), the 528i is "only" 30 HP short from the E350 and gets almost 10 more MPG on the Highway. Statistics-wise, the 528i has an overall advantage, making it perhaps perceived as a more "value car" than the E350.

Then both have similar Options setups that will drive the price up, mostly inline with each other, however BMW has a larger array of Options available. What the E does give over the 5-Series for "Free" is the Sport Package, which is no-cost from the Luxury Package.

Now, starting in 2012 (which haven't affected this years Sales, obviously), perception and statistics are changing. The E350 has comparable statistics to the 535i, and the 528i gets a 4-cylinder. Thus making the E350 and 528i not too comparable, statistically (when I say "statistically I'm simply talking about HP and MPG figures).
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Last edited by K-A; 12-03-2011 at 04:53 AM.
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  #81  
Old 12-03-2011, 06:05 AM
ssj ssj is offline
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My opinion is a bit biased (I bought a BMW). I do not see anything exciting about the appearance of the G350 F sport. To me it has the characteristics of an Avalon blended with an Infiniti - neither of which I like. The specs might be attractive to some. However for me, since I will never be pushing the envelope in the car, even before I get to the acceleration, braking distance and hp@rpm, the appearance is too blah for serious consideration.
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  #82  
Old 12-03-2011, 06:51 AM
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Are the results really that different?

It appears the cars tested are so close the difference could only be noted by some type of computerized measuring device. Which means the difference would not be discernible by the average driver which represents the average buyer.
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  #83  
Old 12-03-2011, 06:56 AM
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My opinion is a bit biased (I bought a BMW). I do not see anything exciting about the appearance of the G350 F sport. To me it has the characteristics of an Avalon blended with an Infiniti - neither of which I like. The specs might be attractive to some. However for me, since I will never be pushing the envelope in the car, even before I get to the acceleration, braking distance and hp@rpm, the appearance is too blah for serious consideration.
It's sad when a BMW, an ultimate driving machine, ends up in the hands of a fashion victim.
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  #84  
Old 12-03-2011, 07:11 AM
ssj ssj is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
It's sad when a BMW, an ultimate driving machine, ends up in the hands of a fashion victim.
This is not an unusual trend in any technology industry - cameras, cars, off-road vehicles. The fashionistas who purchase these commodities for the badge or looks, increase sales and volumes, subsidizing costs and thus allowing enthusiasts such as yourself to enjoy the performance aspects of such technology. If only performance fanatics would buy performance cars, there would not enough of a market to justify production or, the price point would be in the stratosphere. In any case, I am frank about what is important to me. I am sure many other folks would not buy an ugly looking car, or a car that does not have the appropriate level of luxury for the price point regardless of specs.
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  #85  
Old 12-03-2011, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
Well, I'm not so sure personally. The 2012 5er has a 4-banger which might give it a more "downmarket" impression to shoppers, but especially counting the 2011 528i, and considering the average shopper in this market cares MUCH more about MPG than HP (non V8 models), the 528i is "only" 30 HP short from the E350 and gets almost 10 more MPG on the Highway. Statistics-wise, the 528i has an overall advantage, making it perhaps perceived as a more "value car" than the E350.

Then both have similar Options setups that will drive the price up, mostly inline with each other, however BMW has a larger array of Options available. What the E does give over the 5-Series for "Free" is the Sport Package, which is no-cost from the Luxury Package.

Now, starting in 2012 (which haven't affected this years Sales, obviously), perception and statistics are changing. The E350 has comparable statistics to the 535i, and the 528i gets a 4-cylinder. Thus making the E350 and 528i not too comparable, statistically (when I say "statistically I'm simply talking about HP and MPG figures).
K-A, I've said these things before.... For me, buying a car is complex and simple at the same time. And this is probably true for a lot of buyers. A lot of factors go into my decision, some are important, some are probably "silly". Performance, design, cost, features, placement in the market (yes I have a bit of snob factor - I won't buy a Hyundai for example!), "feel" among others.

When I moved up a notch last year from my previous C/3-series level, I had always felt I would buy an E (over a 5) if I could afford that level of car. Having owned a C-Class previously, I knew the allure of MB. Coming from a 335i, I went and drove the new E350. It was slow. But worse, and this is FOR ME, the exterior design destroyed the previous placement of the E as a European luxury sedan, exuding sophistication and quiet luxury. The design team went Japanese on me, with sharp angles, upward sloping lines, unrefined rear design with a total lack of regard for MB presence. I hope to own another MB some day, but it won't be the current generation. Let's see what they do with the next iteration.
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  #86  
Old 12-03-2011, 08:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ssj View Post
This is not an unusual trend in any technology industry - cameras, cars, off-road vehicles. The fashionistas who purchase these commodities for the badge or looks, increase sales and volumes, subsidizing costs and thus allowing enthusiasts such as yourself to enjoy the performance aspects of such technology. If only performance fanatics would buy performance cars, there would not enough of a market to justify production or, the price point would be in the stratosphere. In any case, I am frank about what is important to me. I am sure many other folks would not buy an ugly looking car, or a car that does not have the appropriate level of luxury for the price point regardless of specs.
Form is always #1 to me as well, and was a leading role in my purchase. Function HAS to be there, but if form isn't there, I don't care about how good the function.

In this market of cars, performance means mostly zilch to me. So I gauge it as: Looks, comfort, safety, build quality, tactile quality, interior design/quality/comfort, engineering, workmanship, brand values and tradition/history, etc.
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  #87  
Old 12-03-2011, 08:11 AM
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
K-A, I've said these things before.... For me, buying a car is complex and simple at the same time. And this is probably true for a lot of buyers. A lot of factors go into my decision, some are important, some are probably "silly". Performance, design, cost, features, placement in the market (yes I have a bit of snob factor - I won't buy a Hyundai for example!), "feel" among others.

When I moved up a notch last year from my previous C/3-series level, I had always felt I would buy an E (over a 5) if I could afford that level of car. Having owned a C-Class previously, I knew the allure of MB. Coming from a 335i, I went and drove the new E350. It was slow. But worse, and this if FOR ME, the exterior design destroyed the previous placement of the E as a European luxury sedan, exuding sophistication and quiet luxury. The design team went Japanese on me, with sharp angles, upward sloping lines, unrefined rear design with a total lack of regard MB presence. I hope to own another MB some day, but it won't be the current generation. Let's see what they do with the next iteration.
I had the same sentiments when the W212 arrived. In fact, being a happy W211 owner, I literally hated the W212. The design marinated on me and the hate turned to love. I actually find it to be so pure "Mercedes-Benz", it almost looks like a caricature of what a Benz Sedan is supposed to look like, IMO. In this segment of cars, it's easy for cars to look too conservative and dull, and I think what allures me toward the E, is that gimmicky fussiness that can indeed be off putting (kind of like a "boy racer in a suit" character) mixed with the conservative stateliness gives it a dynamic look that provides it a "soul" that most cars in this Class don't have IMO. I never get bored of looking at it, and it has so many different personalities.

That said, especially being such a critic of the car initially, I know what about it can also be off putting to some people.

About the performance, I guess this is what separates people who "get" Mercedes VS people who "get" BMW, in terms of what speaks to them more. Performance was soooo far down the pole in this segment to me, it just didn't matter. All I wanted was an effortless power delivery that felt luxurious and the 3.5 does it for me. I find it to be perfectly adequately powered. I drive so mellow anyway, that I could drive much more powerful cars back to back with it and I wouldn't notice much of a difference, as I never utilize too much power. Handling wise, I find it to be adequate, however, again, I look for comfort far before handling, so I concentrate on its IMO Class leading comfort, although the Sport suspension does get way too harsh on rough roads (by far my biggest complaint on the car).
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  #88  
Old 12-03-2011, 08:29 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by markl53 View Post
K-A, I've said these things before.... For me, buying a car is complex and simple at the same time. And this is probably true for a lot of buyers. A lot of factors go into my decision, some are important, some are probably "silly". Performance, design, cost, features, placement in the market (yes I have a bit of snob factor - I won't buy a Hyundai for example!), "feel" among others.

When I moved up a notch last year from my previous C/3-series level, I had always felt I would buy an E (over a 5) if I could afford that level of car. Having owned a C-Class previously, I knew the allure of MB. Coming from a 335i, I went and drove the new E350. It was slow. But worse, and this if FOR ME, the exterior design destroyed the previous placement of the E as a European luxury sedan, exuding sophistication and quiet luxury. The design team went Japanese on me, with sharp angles, upward sloping lines, unrefined rear design with a total lack of regard MB presence. I hope to own another MB some day, but it won't be the current generation. Let's see what they do with the next iteration.
You have to look at these things from the perspective of the product cycle. The W212 E Class, much like the F10, featured carryover engines from the prior generation W211. The W211 engine is not at all a bad engine, it is smooth and it pulls strongly from low down in the rev range.

Now, MB has just updated its power plants and they are both excellent - the E350 broadly matches the 535, without turbocharging so throttle response is more instant, and the new E550 has a monster twin turbo V8 that is more than a match for the F10 550 engine and is, of course, just as tunable.

The fact that the E outsold the 5 has absolutely nothing to do with price or value, comparably equipped the F10 and W212 run close and MB hasn't had to resort to buying business to the extent BMW has in the US. The E is a very good car, it is very well built and engineered, it is reliable and the 3 pointed star has more cachet than the Roundel.

MB is going to end this year having sold about as many if not more cars in the US than BMW has sold BMW branded cars, it's not just the E that is doing well. And MB has done this without the marketing dollars BMW has had to deploy. As I've said before, the days when we can point to clear differentiation between the 5 and E are broadly over. BMW has softened, MB has sharpened, and the cars now have essentially identical market positioning. BMW's now rescinded decision to abandon its "Ultimate Driving Machine" branding in favor of "Joy" should have told you all you needed to know in this regard. These cars have never been closer in terms of their positioning and the customers that they appeal to.
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  #89  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:29 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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BMW's now rescinded decision to abandon its "Ultimate Driving Machine" branding in favor of "Joy" should have told you all you needed to know in this regard. These cars have never been closer in terms of their positioning and the customers that they appeal to.
The marketing wasn't executed well, the new branding was flawed (just not very good), but it only reinforces intent:

The ultimate driving machine.

Note they don't say performance, nor racing, nor handling, nor any of any number of categories or categorizations that seem to be claimed by the market subset: enthusiasts.

The ultimate driving machine is about driving, and from a purist point of view is a personal and very broad characterization. While BMW is known and lauded for it attention to performance/handling/whatever in every car, they aren't a sports car company, they make cars that people enjoy driving.

Last edited by tadtaggert; 12-03-2011 at 09:30 AM.
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  #90  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by K-A View Post
About the performance, I guess this is what separates people who "get" Mercedes VS people who "get" BMW, in terms of what speaks to them more. Performance was soooo far down the pole in this segment to me, it just didn't matter. All I wanted was an effortless power delivery that felt luxurious and the 3.5 does it for me. I find it to be perfectly adequately powered. I drive so mellow anyway, that I could drive much more powerful cars back to back with it and I wouldn't notice much of a difference, as I never utilize too much power. Handling wise, I find it to be adequate, however, again, I look for comfort far before handling, so I concentrate on its IMO Class leading comfort, although the Sport suspension does get way too harsh on rough roads (by far my biggest complaint on the car).
I understand you completely, and I would actually put myself in the same category. If the W211 had just come out, I think I would definitely have gone MB over the 5 -- it's just that kind of car. I could overlook the power difference for the 3-pointed star, after all IT IS a Mercedes! In the end it was the total package that pushed me away. I remember in the late 60's when my dad bought our 2nd Cadillac. That was a nice car at the time. We had some of his friends in the car on the way to a ball game and someone mentioned power. He said it wasn't the fastest car but it had other qualities that made him like it -- after all, it was a Cadillac! (he didn't say that). What many people don't seem to realize is that MB is seen as the culmination of "having arrived", and I wanted to partake. Maybe I should have, I don't know, but for now I'm really enjoying my 535i.

Quote:
Originally Posted by swajames
The fact that the E outsold the 5 has absolutely nothing to do with price or value, comparably equipped the F10 and W212 run close and MB hasn't had to resort to buying business to the extent BMW has in the US. The E is a very good car, it is very well built and engineered, it is reliable and the 3 pointed star has more cachet than the Roundel.
I have to agree, completely.
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  #91  
Old 12-03-2011, 09:53 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
The marketing wasn't executed well, the new branding was flawed (just not very good), but it only reinforces intent:

The ultimate driving machine.

Note they don't say performance, nor racing, nor handling, nor any of any number of categories or categorizations that seem to be claimed by the market subset: enthusiasts.

The ultimate driving machine is about driving, and from a purist point of view is a personal and very broad characterization. While BMW is known and lauded for it attention to performance/handling/whatever in every car, they aren't a sports car company, they make cars that people enjoy driving.
To me, this is nonsense. Being the ultimate driving machine is to amplify the attributes that makes a sports car a sports car. It's about the driving experience, the difference of the joy the passenger feels and the exhilaration and connectness the driver experiences in relation to the car. This is what has set BMW apart not the fuzzy feeling of "joy". Some enjoy minimum feedback and maximum comfort more than a communicative sharp car but that doesn't make a Crown Victoria the Ultimate driving machine, with such a broad personal definition the attribute BMW is renowned for mean nothing. The truth is that the F10 is not an ultimate driving machine since it's being beaten by the competition in critical areas and overall as a drivers car, and more important it doesn't feel as a drivers car like BMW normally do, I know it's hard to accept.

Last edited by solstice; 12-03-2011 at 09:59 AM.
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  #92  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:04 AM
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Some of you guys sound so bitter.

I don't see you enjoying any car for fear the competition will do "X" better.

Take some time to enjoy your car(s) along the way for it won't last forever.

BMW is doing what everyone else is. Figuring out a way to develop more fuel efficient cars that are still fun to drive. It is not easy. The reality is change is coming fo better or worse, but that is life.
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Last edited by chuck92116; 12-03-2011 at 10:10 AM.
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  #93  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:12 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Originally Posted by solstice View Post
To me, this is nonsense. Being the ultimate driving machine is to amplify the attributes that makes a sports car a sports car. It's about the driving experience, the difference of the joy the passenger feels and the exhilaration and connectness the driver experiences in relation to the car. This is what has set BMW apart not the fuzzy feeling of "joy". Some enjoy minimum feedback and maximum comfort more than a communicative sharp car but that doesn't make a Crown Victoria the Ultimate driving machine, with such a broad personal definition the attribute BMW is renowned for mean nothing. The truth is that the F10 is not an ultimate driving machine since it's being beaten by the competition in critical areas and overall as a drivers car, and more important it doesn't feel as a drivers car like BMW normally do, I know it's hard to accept.
It's not hard to accept, just different. My definition includes yours, yours is an absolute that seeks to exclude anyone that doesn't adhere to your way of thinking.

It's why you switched to an M3, it's why if I want to drive a sports car I leave the 550 in the garage and pull out a sports car.
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  #94  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:40 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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Originally Posted by tadtaggert View Post
It's not hard to accept, just different. My definition includes yours, yours is an absolute that seeks to exclude anyone that doesn't adhere to your way of thinking.

It's why you switched to an M3, it's why if I want to drive a sports car I leave the 550 in the garage and pull out a sports car.
And this is likely the reason why the switched the slogan, to not risk alienating the crowd that is not sports oriented. It does however not make "joy" equal to the Ultimate driving machine. Imagine leading the BMW design team and presenting the ultimate target as the Ultimate driving machine for every personal definition. And then trying to make your brand having a unique identifier. It would be impossible and would left your brand watered down and bland. And as for leaving the BMW in the garage when you want a fun drive is exactly the opposite of being the Ultimate Driving Machine.
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  #95  
Old 12-03-2011, 10:56 AM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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And this is likely the reason why the switched the slogan, to not risk alienating the crowd that is not sports oriented. It does however not make "joy" equal to the Ultimate driving machine. Imagine leading the BMW design team and presenting the ultimate target as the Ultimate driving machine for every personal definition. And then trying to make your brand having a unique identifier. It would be impossible and would left your brand watered down and bland. And as for leaving the BMW in the garage when you want a fun drive is exactly the opposite of being the Ultimate Driving Machine.
So two points here:

1) I think I already stated that the slogan change was bad, just tried to explain the real intent.

2) I did not say I leave the 550 in the garage when I want a fun drive. The 550 is lots of fun, all the time. It's not a sports car, it's a sporty luxury sedan, but no matter how you name it, not a true sports car. As for being the opposite, well I don't live in your world.

When the M5 hits the states, when I've driven it and determined if it offers a level of comfort for day to day driving, then yes, maybe it's time to sell 2-3 cars and go with one. If not, I'm content where I am.

I truly hope you like the M3, it's a great car, just not what I want for day to day driving.
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Old 12-03-2011, 11:30 AM
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bodonx bodonx is offline
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As a loyal BMW owners, I've been very disappointed with the direction BMW going.

The perfect era of BMW was during e46, e39 era. BMW was king of sport sedans.

During E90, E60 era, Bangle destroyed the design. The driving was still good.

Now during the F10 era, they've fixed the styling, but they destroyed the performance.

F30 is the only class thye keep intact with its lower weight. I am switching to M3 soon. The F10 is too isolated to drive
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:05 PM
solstice solstice is offline
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If it was just a marketing move to change the slogan I couldn't care less, however swajames point is that the change should tell you something about new priorities and he is unfortunately correct, the F10 is evidence of that. With usual German attention to process BMW has likely gone through the stages with a vision to broaden the appeal of the brand to a strategy that includes toning down the focus on sport and then executed with the result of a more mainstream luxury car without the enthusiast edge. It's way to early to determine if this will be a longterm success or a mistake.

And thanks I truly enjoy the M3, to me it's the perfect mix of comfort and sport for a daily driver.

Last edited by solstice; 12-03-2011 at 12:06 PM.
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Old 12-03-2011, 12:31 PM
tadtaggert tadtaggert is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by solstice View Post
If it was just a marketing move to change the slogan I couldn't care less, however swajames point is that the change should tell you something about new priorities and he is unfortunately correct, the F10 is evidence of that. With usual German attention to process BMW has likely gone through the stages with a vision to broaden the appeal of the brand to a strategy that includes toning down the focus on sport and then executed with the result of a more mainstream luxury car without the enthusiast edge. It's way to early to determine if this will be a longterm success or a mistake.

And thanks I truly enjoy the M3, to me it's the perfect mix of comfort and sport for a daily driver.
I really don't think they are trying to tone anything down, my argument being the introduction of the 1's and the continued increase in size of the 3's. Broaden? Yes by all means, but it's sad that such specific badging angers so many.

Maybe when all 3 kids are out of college and on their own an M3 might fit my needs, but TBO I've gotten used to the comfort and luxury for day to day. Glad you found your fit.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:38 PM
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Well, I'm not so sure personally. The 2012 5er has a 4-banger which might give it a more "downmarket" impression to shoppers, but especially counting the 2011 528i, and considering the average shopper in this market cares MUCH more about MPG than HP (non V8 models), the 528i is "only" 30 HP short from the E350 and gets almost 10 more MPG on the Highway. Statistics-wise, the 528i has an overall advantage, making it perhaps perceived as a more "value car" than the E350.

Then both have similar Options setups that will drive the price up, mostly inline with each other, however BMW has a larger array of Options available. What the E does give over the 5-Series for "Free" is the Sport Package, which is no-cost from the Luxury Package.

Now, starting in 2012 (which haven't affected this years Sales, obviously), perception and statistics are changing. The E350 has comparable statistics to the 535i, and the 528i gets a 4-cylinder. Thus making the E350 and 528i not too comparable, statistically (when I say "statistically I'm simply talking about HP and MPG figures).
I agree with you that the 528i makes the 5 series seems downmarket.

In fact I would almost certainly have bought the 650i grancoupe if it had been available for this reason.
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Old 12-03-2011, 03:42 PM
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