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E90/E91/E92/E93 (2006 - 2013)
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  #76  
Old 12-04-2011, 02:35 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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hello ctuna, I am sure if it is possible (run a line off light fixtures) here, the property manager will say yes ie only say my car can't start or a one time thing. I don't see why she will say yes This is a >400 units condo. I can understand too, imagine every homeowner runs to her and request that. Other homeowners will cry foul too cos I will be using electricity in the common elements
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  #77  
Old 12-04-2011, 02:40 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Hi Sunny, you are right too. None of my friends has such problem and I pay alot more than some of their cars. It is absurd that I have to go through extra work to maintain this car. With tax and extra warranty on the tires, etc, this baby costs >$60k Then again, I really love this car. It's terrible, isn't it?
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  #78  
Old 12-04-2011, 03:08 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
Hi Sunny, you are right too. None of my friends has such problem and I pay alot more than some of their cars. It is absurd that I have to go through extra work to maintain this car. With tax and extra warranty on the tires, etc, this baby costs >$60k Then again, I really love this car. It's terrible, isn't it?
You've got that right. Let us know how it goes.
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  #79  
Old 12-04-2011, 03:14 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Hi Sunny! Thanks!! I sincerely appreciate everyone here for trying to help. Everyone here has been great!! I am truly grateful for that
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  #80  
Old 12-04-2011, 04:02 PM
yikes98 yikes98 is offline
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It is what it is. If more goes out (closed-circuit current consumption of 10 - 40 mA) than in you are going to run out of juice. The alternative design might be to not have sleep mode for all the computers and have it shut down like Windows, then you can wait 10 minutes before your car can boot and drive off, that's if you don't get the blue screen of death.

From BMW service.

Long immobilization period
The vehicle was parked for a very long period. The vehicle has a standard closed-circuit current consumption of 10 - 40 mA, depending on the equipment fitted. This leads to slow but continuous battery discharge. Depending on the state of charge of the battery when the vehicle is parked, the residual capacity necessary to start the vehicle is reached after an immobilization period of approx. 4 - 12 weeks. If possible, point out these facts to the customer.

Unfavorable driving profile
The battery can be depleted due to unfavorable driving characteristics of the customer:
- In the case of extreme short-distance driving, it is possible that starting the engine takes more energy from the battery than is charged in the subsequent trip. The charge balance deteriorates if a great many current consumers are switched on during the subsequent trip.
- Very few trips: If the vehicle is moved very infrequently and the individual trips are not sufficiently long, it is possible that during the immobilization period more energy is taken from the battery by normal closed-circuit current than is charged while the vehicle is being driven.
If possible, point out these facts to the customer.
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  #81  
Old 12-04-2011, 04:19 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes98 View Post
Long immobilization period
The vehicle was parked for a very long period. The vehicle has a standard closed-circuit current consumption of 10 - 40 mA, depending on the equipment fitted. This leads to slow but continuous battery discharge. Depending on the state of charge of the battery when the vehicle is parked, the residual capacity necessary to start the vehicle is reached after an immobilization period of approx. 4 - 12 weeks. If possible, point out these facts to the customer.
This sounds like my 2006 330xi (and previously my 1999 328i but that didn't have as much electronics). My 330xi was almost fully loaded including navigation, PDC, Comfort Access, and Premium Sound.

Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes98 View Post
Unfavorable driving profile
The battery can be depleted due to unfavorable driving characteristics of the customer:
- In the case of extreme short-distance driving, it is possible that starting the engine takes more energy from the battery than is charged in the subsequent trip. The charge balance deteriorates if a great many current consumers are switched on during the subsequent trip.
- Very few trips: If the vehicle is moved very infrequently and the individual trips are not sufficiently long, it is possible that during the immobilization period more energy is taken from the battery by normal closed-circuit current than is charged while the vehicle is being driven.
If possible, point out these facts to the customer.
This sounds like my daily driver which was, up until the end of October, a 2001 X5 4.4i (which was almost base). My 2007 X5 4.8i is almost fully loaded with navigation, PDC, heated seats (front / rear), heated wheel (the heated items I'm taking advantage of this week), rear climate, and DVD entertainment to name a few of the electronic consumers. I'm anxious to see if I encounter any problems.
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  #82  
Old 12-04-2011, 06:54 PM
yikes98 yikes98 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sunny5280 View Post
This sounds like my 2006 330xi (and previously my 1999 328i but that didn't have as much electronics). My 330xi was almost fully loaded including navigation, PDC, Comfort Access, and Premium Sound.
There are other energy hogs that nobody thinks of. The stuff you can touch and turn on is one type, the other is the stand electronics for the computers to boot everything up, to get O2 heaters, cat heaters, throttle valves, variable valves timing, injectors, HP fuel pumps, starter,etc, etc, etc...Obviously it depends on the engine package but everything has to work right away to keep emissions low right after start because that usually where most of the bad air is made on the cold start and one of the areas where certification is required. You don't make gov. emissions numbers, you don't sell cars. BTW power budgets are going to get even worst as OEMs push for cleaner and cleaner technologies in conjunction with more and more luxo features.
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  #83  
Old 12-04-2011, 07:08 PM
ProRail ProRail is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
Sorry, I know this topic has been discussed before by users, but I still have problem understanding it even after researching in many sites. I apologize if I sound too ignorant and also for this very lengthy thread.

I have a brand new 328i in March. This car goes on a highway 1-2 times a month. I live in Buckhead, Atlanta. So I do basically almost everything within a 3-4miles radius.

Around mid October, I first received a "High Battery Discharge"warning message. But it went away within a minute after I turned on the ignition.

On November 1, I was at my dental office for over 2 hours. I got into the car, drove to pick up some shipping supplies down the street (5mins). Got back into the car about 5 mins later, drove to the mall which is another 5 mins distance. Halfway to the mall, my mom called and I talked to her via bluetooth.

Parked the car, cut off engine and still talking to my mom. Whole conversation is about 30minutes. I know. After I hung up the phone, the "High Batter Discharge" warning came up again. I turned off the power.

Went to the mall to pick up a few items, went back to the car. The "Battery Charged Level Low" came up when I turned the power on. This was the first time I saw that and I was worried. I connected to the BMW Assist and the lady insisted I should send my car for a checkup. She connected me to the nearest service center at Global Imports. I got an appointment on Nov 5. The warning signs did not show up after that.

On November 5, the SA told me I have too few miles in the car, and likely due to my driving short distances. I looked at the diagnostics, it said
"#1 Cause was Terminal 15 was on.
#2 was unfavorable driving patterms" Battery at 53%

The technician came and explained I should really take my car to go far away places. He has suggested a trikle charger but since I live in a condominium, that won't work. Everyone zoomed in on my "unfavorable driving pattern". He also said the battery will not be under warranty if it dies.

So I have since tried to take the car to far places once a week. Honestly, this is stressful cos I have to purposely go somewhere far to get the battery charged.

One month later, today I received another "High Battery Discharge". Not sure if it was due to my stopping at the gas station to fill up the gas and again like 10minutes later. When I got back into the car after leaving the car for 10minutes, I received the "High Battery discharge" warning. The warning did not go away. After my one hour meeting at Starbucks, I did not see anymore of the "High Battery Discharge" warning for the rest of the day.

I am wondering instead of going to highway when the traffic is just as bad as the city roads, can I just drive around the city to get the battery charged. If yes, how long should I drive to get the batt charged. Would anyone be kind to tell me if this (driving short distances) is the only reason causing it. I also have a theory, could it be because I keep cutting off the engine at within sort period of time interval. I used to have a MB, and I never have such problem

Would appreciate if anyone can advise on this. Thank you!
Yes. Drive it about 15-20 minutes every time, or drive it a decent distance once a week. Or you could use a battery booster...but it's better to drive it a reasonable amount every weeks.
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  #84  
Old 12-05-2011, 05:23 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes98 View Post
There are other energy hogs that nobody thinks of. The stuff you can touch and turn on is one type, the other is the stand electronics for the computers to boot everything up, to get O2 heaters, cat heaters, throttle valves, variable valves timing, injectors, HP fuel pumps, starter,etc, etc, etc...Obviously it depends on the engine package but everything has to work right away to keep emissions low right after start because that usually where most of the bad air is made on the cold start and one of the areas where certification is required. You don't make gov. emissions numbers, you don't sell cars. BTW power budgets are going to get even worst as OEMs push for cleaner and cleaner technologies in conjunction with more and more luxo features.
I mentioned the options because they are what set different cars apart wrt electronic consumers. I assume the remaining electronic consumers are common to every E9x model.

As for electronics having to boot I see no reason why these systems would require any lengthy initialization time. If they have to remain in a low power state which consumes enough power to exhaust a battery in a short period of time then they've been designed wrong. I don't hear about this issue with other manufacturers so BMW must be doing something wrong if you can't leave a car sit for a reasonable amount of time. Since I haven't experienced this issue (with leaving the car sitting for an extended length of time) I can only assume BMW has got it right. As I said I left my 2006 330xi sitting in the garage for extended periods of time (often a month, sometimes two) with short trips in between it sitting. The battery held up fine.

Personally it's been my experience when a battery begins to exhibit behavior as described by the OP that's an indication the battery needs to be replaced. Take my 1999 328i for example. It sat in the garage and one day I went to start it and it failed to start. Thinking I had left it sit too long I charged it and took it out for a long drive. Came back the next day and drove it again. Came back after a week and it was dead again. Lather, rinse, repeat. Ended up buying a new battery and that's the battery that was in the car when I sold it in August 2010. It was still going strong.
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  #85  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:44 AM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yikes98 View Post
It is what it is. If more goes out (closed-circuit current consumption of 10 - 40 mA) than in you are going to run out of juice. The alternative design might be to not have sleep mode for all the computers and have it shut down like Windows, then you can wait 10 minutes before your car can boot and drive off, that's if you don't get the blue screen of death.

From BMW service.

Long immobilization period
The vehicle was parked for a very long period. The vehicle has a standard closed-circuit current consumption of 10 - 40 mA, depending on the equipment fitted. This leads to slow but continuous battery discharge. Depending on the state of charge of the battery when the vehicle is parked, the residual capacity necessary to start the vehicle is reached after an immobilization period of approx. 4 - 12 weeks. If possible, point out these facts to the customer.

This is not me, my car is a daily driver .

Unfavorable driving profile
The battery can be depleted due to unfavorable driving characteristics of the customer:
- In the case of extreme short-distance driving, it is possible that starting the engine takes more energy from the battery than is charged in the subsequent trip. The charge balance deteriorates if a great many current consumers are switched on during the subsequent trip.
- Very few trips: If the vehicle is moved very infrequently and the individual trips are not sufficiently long, it is possible that during the immobilization period more energy is taken from the battery by normal closed-circuit current than is charged while the vehicle is being driven.
If possible, point out these facts to the customer.
I guess that would be me?? But how extreme short-distance are we talking about. All of a sudden, I am very aware of the number of miles the car went. This morning I checked it was a 7 miles one way. So are we saying if the car is parked, the energy taken from the battery is more than the amount of energy charged during driving? What is normal closed circuit current? The BMW tech told me it takes one hour for the car to completely shut down. So electricity is used during this one hour?
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  #86  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:46 AM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Hello Yikes98, where do you get that info? BMW manual?
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  #87  
Old 12-05-2011, 06:51 AM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Hi ProRail! Thanks for posting. I live in a high-rise so a trickle charger or any charger is out. The use of solar panel has been suggested. Also to change out the battery. I am still monitoring my battery situation. Since Nov 1, I have taken the car on longer drive over the weekend. Honestly I don't see the situation has improved becos exactly one month later, the "Increased Battery Discharge" popped up again. The first time was 8 months after I took delivery of the car and I didn't even take my car out on highways. I do drive about 15-20mins most of the time. Now I wander on the highways during weekends. I am just worried this is not enough since "Increase Battery Discharge" warning came back once last thursday.
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  #88  
Old 12-05-2011, 07:02 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
Hi ProRail! Thanks for posting. I live in a high-rise so a trickle charger or any charger is out. The use of solar panel has been suggested. Also to change out the battery. I am still monitoring my battery situation. Since Nov 1, I have taken the car on longer drive over the weekend. Honestly I don't see the situation has improved becos exactly one month later, the "Increased Battery Discharge" popped up again. The first time was 8 months after I took delivery of the car and I didn't even take my car out on highways. I do drive about 15-20mins most of the time. Now I wander on the highways during weekends. I am just worried this is not enough since "Increase Battery Discharge" warning came back once last thursday.
If you're still receiving the warning even after driving it on the highways over the weekend then it's my opinion the battery needs to be replaced.
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  #89  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:29 AM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Sunny: I drove alot more on weekends (a mix of highways and city roads) since the Nov 1 diagnosis. But exactly one month later, that message popped up once. The part that I don't understand is I drove far lesser before the diagnosis, and the message only showed up 7+ mths later. I drove alot more and it showed up one mth later after getting a full charge at the service center.

Someone told me even though battery is not under warranty but if it gives way within a year, the manufactuer, ie BMW may replace it. You heard about this before? I am going to continue monitor the battery situation, and purely run it on highways on weekends. If it shows up again within 1-2 mths, I will need to schedule another appt. But I still hope to find a solution to help me maintain it.
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  #90  
Old 12-05-2011, 10:51 AM
ctuna ctuna is online now
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If you are iterested in knowing your battery voltage

http://www.scangauge.com/

This is one way to monitor it or you could buy a voltmeter.
A voltmeter is cheap but you would need to measure the voltage at the jump points under the hood.
Under 11 Volts is the place where it starts to give you and error message I believe.
You can probably get a cheap Digital voltmeter at Radio shack or on line for 10 to 20 bucks.

Last edited by ctuna; 12-05-2011 at 10:56 AM.
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  #91  
Old 12-05-2011, 11:03 AM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
Sunny: I drove alot more on weekends (a mix of highways and city roads) since the Nov 1 diagnosis. But exactly one month later, that message popped up once. The part that I don't understand is I drove far lesser before the diagnosis, and the message only showed up 7+ mths later. I drove alot more and it showed up one mth later after getting a full charge at the service center.
This, to me, is a classic sign the battery needs to be replaced. If, after extended periods of driving, you continue to receive a low battery warning then the battery is unable to adequately hold a charge. My recommendation would be:
  • Buy (or borrow) a battery charger and perform your own charge. Unless the dealer will perform another complimentary charge there's no need to pay them for it when you can buy a decent charger for around $50.00. You don't need anything fancy. Assuming the battery is good it will bring it to a known state (i.e. fully charged).
  • Once charged continue driving the vehicle for extended periods on the weekends. If the battery is good doing so should allow the battery to recover from the discharge that resulted from the short trips during the week.
  • If the problem recurs in a short period of time (a week or so) then replace the battery.

Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
Someone told me even though battery is not under warranty but if it gives way within a year, the manufactuer, ie BMW may replace it. You heard about this before? I am going to continue monitor the battery situation, and purely run it on highways on weekends. If it shows up again within 1-2 mths, I will need to schedule another appt. But I still hope to find a solution to help me maintain it.
I suppose it depends on the dealer. If they feel the battery has been abused, as they would claim with short distance driving, they're under no obligation to replace it under warranty. However if you can build the case the battery is defective then they should warranty it.
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  #92  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:30 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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ctuna: I just checked that link you posted, it is indeed a great item to have. But won't having that consume extra electricity? Cos that's another gadget in the car. I may just go with the digital voltmeter option and check it periodically. What do you think is the interval of time should I check? Every week or every 2 weeks?
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  #93  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:37 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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sunny: so you are saying if I get it fully charged, and I run it on weekends, with a good battery it should recover itself say by end of Sunday? What would your extended periods likely be? Surely I don't want to wander on the highways for hours. An idea just came to me, perhaps I should start planning saying a 1-2 months period, document the battery voltage during various times, and this can serve as a documentation if I need the dealer to replace it for free. But of cos it is going to be a fight that I am not sure if it is worth. Then again no harm trying.
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  #94  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:41 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Another question for those who have been so kind to my problem... Should I cut off the engine while waiting for someone say will only show up 15minutes later? The BMW tech said the car takes 1 hour to shut down everything, so wouldn't it bad to turn off the engine and turn it on again after a short period of time? Actually now I am so afraid to turn off the engine and turn it on after a short amount of time (anything less than 1 hour). Yes, I am getting paranoid
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  #95  
Old 12-05-2011, 12:58 PM
ctuna ctuna is online now
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My battery is old an I got the battery warning once

I have been monitoring my voltage with a voltmeter and charging the battery
with a 2 amp setting . I can get it to charge up to 12.5 volts but but it will loose
voltage sometimes quite a bit overnight and if I leave it for a couple of days it will
be down around 11.8 so I am going to get a new one. ( its the original)
I would get your battery charged where ever you can then take a reading every morning
for awhile to establish some history on how well its holding charge or what your driving
habits are doing to it then adjust habits as necessary.

http://www.bawarec.ru/manuals/3er/e9...3er-e90-12.pdf

The above describes the intelligent battery charging system although at this point we might
call it the dumb battery system.

Last edited by ctuna; 12-05-2011 at 01:05 PM.
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  #96  
Old 12-05-2011, 01:43 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
sunny: so you are saying if I get it fully charged, and I run it on weekends, with a good battery it should recover itself say by end of Sunday? What would your extended periods likely be? Surely I don't want to wander on the highways for hours. An idea just came to me, perhaps I should start planning saying a 1-2 months period, document the battery voltage during various times, and this can serve as a documentation if I need the dealer to replace it for free. But of cos it is going to be a fight that I am not sure if it is worth. Then again no harm trying.
When you took your car in for the battery issue BMW noted you were making many short trips. They're claiming these short trips are insufficient to restore the energy consumed from starting the car as well as when the car is at rest. In order to fully restore the battery to full capacity they perform a complimentary charge. Assuming the battery was still good a fully charged batter should have given you approximately seven more months of operation before the warning reappeared. However that was not the case...you received a months operation before the warning reappeared. This to me indicates either the battery wasn't fully recharged or the battery is no longer capable of holding a charge to the degree it once was.

My recommendation to recharge the battery is to bring it up to its maximum remaining capacity. Once the battery is fully charged you can then "properly" (according to BMW's guidance) charge the battery through a combination of every day driving (the short distances which they claim are insufficient to recharge the lost energy) and longer weekend driving (which they claim is sufficient to recharge the lost energy). If you do this weekly and the battery is good you should no longer see the warning. However if you do that to me is a sure sign the battery needs replacing.
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  #97  
Old 12-05-2011, 02:41 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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Ctuna: I tried very hard to stay awake while reading that link Okie, I saved a copy on my laptop. I will try reading them again. But I don't need to know much other than the voltage supply part, right? (P. 4-13)

Page 12 of that got me awoke abit. It says Terminal 15 "On". That was stated in the diagnosis I was given. It said: #1 Cause was Terminal 15 was on. But what does that mean? Do you know?

So you received a "Increased Battery Discharge" once? I bet your battery has lasted for many years and you have better driving pattern (I can hear the guys at BMW saying) than I do. Any comment about whether one should cut the engine completely when waiting?
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  #98  
Old 12-05-2011, 02:47 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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ctuna: Oh, and also you know the huge problem for me to charge the battery on my own, I may just have to get it fully charged once (at the dealer v likely) and then start monitoring the batt voltage from there. My driving habits the same, I am very predictable. Go to the same places everyday, but of cos since my Nov 1 diagnosis, I start to take the car for longer distances and then adding highways to my list. I may throw in some variables when I start this project ie "Operation Bimmer 328" to monitor my battery voltage once I get it fully charged. I may wait till after the holidays cos I have too much things going on. Oh, ie unless the warning signs show up again
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  #99  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:02 PM
terri_atl terri_atl is offline
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sunny: Yes, I guess I was quite taken aback when the Service Advisor and the tech guy kept zoomed in on my few miles in the car , advised to put in more miles, drive to far away places. I forgot to ask about the "#1 Cause was Terminal 15 was on". If my driving habit is the sole cause, there should only be 1 cause noted. And of cos they have noted "Not enough driving performed to keep batt supplied". But say even my car has few miles, how if they are all highway miles? cos they never ask me where I drive my car before handing me that diagnosis. Am I making sense here? Hmmm..

You are completely right about the battery should give me another 7 months. I guess I need to start a log to monitor the battery after I get a chance to get the battery fully charged once. Do u think I should call the service center and let them know the warning sign showed up again?

Any comment about if one should cut off the engine while the car has stopped but will take off 15 mins later? Cos gathered from some posts here, I now understand the electricity needed to start the engine may be more than the driving can help to recharge. But would it be bad if I don't cut off the engine?

Last edited by terri_atl; 12-05-2011 at 03:16 PM.
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  #100  
Old 12-05-2011, 03:20 PM
sunny5280 sunny5280 is online now
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Location: Denver, CO
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,647
Mein Auto: 2007 X5 4.8i
Quote:
Originally Posted by terri_atl View Post
sunny: Yes, I guess I was quite taken aback when the Service Advisor and the tech guy kept zoomed in on my few miles in the car , advised to put in more miles, drive to far away places. I forgot to ask about the "#1 Cause was Terminal 15 was on". If my driving habit is the sole cause, there should only be 1 cause noted. And of cos they have noted "Not enough driving performed to keep batt supplied". But say even my car has few miles, how if they are all highway miles? cos they never ask me where I drive my car before handing me that diagnosis. Am I making sense here? Hmmm..

You are completely right about the battery should give me another 7 months. I guess I need to start a log to monitor the battery after I get a chance to get the battery fully charged once. Do u think I should call the service center and let them know the warning sign showed up again?

Any comment about if one should cut off the engine while the car has stopped but will take off 15 mins later? Cos gathered from some posts here, I now understand the electricity needed to start the engine may be more than the driving can help to recharge. But would it be bad if I don't cut off the engine?
My recommendation is to take it back to BMW, let them know the problem is still occurring despite your increased drive time, and insist they replace the battery.
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