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Go Back   Bimmerfest - BMW Forums > BMW Model Discussions > M Series > E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)

E90/E92/E93 M3 (2008 - 2014)
4th generation E90 M3 sedan, E92 M3 coupe and E93 M3 convertible. The last of the naturally aspirated M3s, powered by a 4.0 liter V8 making 414hp and 295 lb-ft of torque.

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  #26  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:33 AM
jeffrey262 jeffrey262 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
Here we go again. The last time I posted something like this, 2005 Carrera S vs E90 M3 there were a lot of good discussions, pros and cons. Well, I ended up with the '05 Carrera S because the M3 lacked low end torque for its weight, and it would have been a gas hog, a real turnoff. Eventually, I sold the Carrera S because it was just too much car for where I live in TX. Surrounded by big TX trucks the Carrera S looked like a toy. But, I really missed that car so now I'm thinking of getting one again, but the gen 2 version with 385 hp (~$70K) rather than the 355 hp in the '05 (~$48K) model. Scratch off the new 991 Carrera with the Boxster engine because it is too green a car for my liking, and with only a slight increased in power over the 997 Carrera, it does not entice my curiosity. The question is once again, which would be a better car to get, the 2009 gen 2 Carrera S or the pending F30 M3?
Dave....How about this answer? I recently purchased a used 2008 M3 Coupe with SMG. This car was fully loaded to the max. I always wanted a Porsche. The dealer I purchased the BMW from was a Porsche dealer. They had a very nice 2008 Targa 911s4 with 34k miles, It was not certified. The dealer was asking $69K. That was the only 911 that was under $70K. A little too much for my pocket. The dealer said he would exchange the BMW if I wanted a Porsche. I would not lose any money. He said "drive the BMW for a few days and let me know what you would like to do", so I did. They next day I saw a 2008 911s 6spd in Rudy Red with Black Leather, Crono package with Sport and sport exhaust, etc...pretty loaded car and certified 6yr/100kmiles.

I traded in my M3. I got what I asked for it while negotiated the price down on the Porsche. I am one happy camper. My 911s is in mint condition. Fast as hell. Get great gas mileage compared to my M3. I average 325miles on a full tank. Average 24mpg. Never knew I could do that with a Porsche.

What ever you do, do not purchase a Caymen. It is soooo loud compared to the 911s.

Good luck with your decision. Buy a Porsche!
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Last edited by jeffrey262; 12-18-2011 at 10:34 AM.
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:52 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey262 View Post
Dave....How about this answer? I recently purchased a used 2008 M3 Coupe with SMG. This car was fully loaded to the max. I always wanted a Porsche. The dealer I purchased the BMW from was a Porsche dealer. They had a very nice 2008 Targa 911s4 with 34k miles, It was not certified. The dealer was asking $69K. That was the only 911 that was under $70K. A little too much for my pocket. The dealer said he would exchange the BMW if I wanted a Porsche. I would not lose any money. He said "drive the BMW for a few days and let me know what you would like to do", so I did. They next day I saw a 2008 911s 6spd in Rudy Red with Black Leather, Crono package with Sport and sport exhaust, etc...pretty loaded car and certified 6yr/100kmiles.

I traded in my M3. I got what I asked for it while negotiated the price down on the Porsche. I am one happy camper. My 911s is in mint condition. Fast as hell. Get great gas mileage compared to my M3. I average 325miles on a full tank. Average 24mpg. Never knew I could do that with a Porsche.

What ever you do, do not purchase a Caymen. It is soooo loud compared to the 911s.

Good luck with your decision. Buy a Porsche!
I agree. The M3 and the 911S are two different type of cars. The Gen II 911s came out in 2009, HP increased from 355 to 385 plus a few LED goodies.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jeffrey262 View Post
Dave....How about this answer? I recently purchased a used 2008 M3 Coupe with SMG. This car was fully loaded to the max. I always wanted a Porsche. The dealer I purchased the BMW from was a Porsche dealer. They had a very nice 2008 Targa 911s4 with 34k miles, It was not certified. The dealer was asking $69K. That was the only 911 that was under $70K. A little too much for my pocket. The dealer said he would exchange the BMW if I wanted a Porsche. I would not lose any money. He said "drive the BMW for a few days and let me know what you would like to do", so I did. They next day I saw a 2008 911s 6spd in Rudy Red with Black Leather, Crono package with Sport and sport exhaust, etc...pretty loaded car and certified 6yr/100kmiles.

I traded in my M3. I got what I asked for it while negotiated the price down on the Porsche. I am one happy camper. My 911s is in mint condition. Fast as hell. Get great gas mileage compared to my M3. I average 325miles on a full tank. Average 24mpg. Never knew I could do that with a Porsche.

What ever you do, do not purchase a Caymen. It is soooo loud compared to the 911s.

Good luck with your decision. Buy a Porsche!

Here's the problem, you bought an 08 M3 with SMG. Should have gone for the DCT.
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
It is not going to be a daily car, for sure. I do miss that Gen 1 Carrera S. The saving grace was I MADE a few bucks selling it. It was in mint condition. Gen2 S is around $70K right now. Price will drop when those 3 yrs leases are over.

In addition to being larger, the 991 also grows in terms of power. The 911 Carrera S, which is powered by a 3.8-liter, direct-injected, six-cylinder engine. It puts out 400 horsepower and 325 pound-feet of torque, each figure a gain of 15 over the outgoing Carrera S. I read the 991S is capable of 7-8 secs faster than the Gen 2 S around Nurburgring. I seriously doubt that.
400 vs 385 hp is for bragging rights. My car has more than enough power and is very tractable around town. If you liked the 997.1. You should like the 997.2 more. The dfi engine is improved and the interior is better. Look for a S with SPASM. It comes with a limited slip diff. I have never driven a E90 M3 so I can't compare.
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  #30  
Old 12-19-2011, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
Very logical thinking. I think when you spend more than say $70K, it gets more emotional in your car selections.
.... and very "illogical thinking" is trying to match a car up that exists today (and you can buy), against a car that won't exist for some time to come - and then asking people what they think about it

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  #31  
Old 12-19-2011, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by vexed View Post
400 vs 385 hp is for bragging rights. My car has more than enough power and is very tractable around town. If you liked the 997.1. You should like the 997.2 more. The dfi engine is improved and the interior is better. Look for a S with SPASM. It comes with a limited slip diff. I have never driven a E90 M3 so I can't compare.
Most of that 400 hp comes at 8400 rpm vs 385 at 6600 rpm. You can probably get an idea how each car should be driven.
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  #32  
Old 12-19-2011, 08:04 AM
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Most of that 400 hp comes at 8400 rpm vs 385 at 6600 rpm. You can probably get an idea how each car should be driven.
"Each car should be driven" ... by skilled drivers on a race track - not on the street.
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  #33  
Old 12-19-2011, 10:43 AM
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"Each car should be driven" ... by skilled drivers on a race track - not on the street.
Zzzzzzzzz. This isn't the NHTSA forum.
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  #34  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:07 PM
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Several months ago I asked myself the same question…............

I was raised in a family that worshipped Porsches and I have always had a strong emotional attachment to the brand – I drove a modded 911 turbo for over 100Kmiles. Feeling a little nostalgic, I thought this might be a good time to snap up a remaining 997 at a nice discount. I was disappointed to discover new car inventory was limited.

In terms of CPOs – I found a limited Carrera S inventory in the Mid-Atlantic. Most nice low mileage cars were around $80K. Porsche was offering exceptional below market financing for 60 month purchases that would have made a transaction very easy. However, I was not feeling the love. Assuming - 15K miles a year, I suspect, in 3 years I would find myself with a 6 year old car, out of warranty, possibly financially upside down, with two years of payments to go, and potentially facing significant maintenance and repair bills going forward. Over the long term, the real cost of a Porsche ownership is not cost of the monthly payment but the cost of maintenance. Moreover, higher mileage Porsches, lacking warranties, often take hits in terms of depreciation. Furthering the misery, Porsche dealers are notoriously expensive and indifferent. If your intention is to limit your miles -I suspect my analysis is questionable.

I am sure there is a CPO deal somewhere in the wild that makes sense, but I could not find it. IMO leasing a new Porsche and limiting your downside makes more financial sense in general. Personally, if I had to have a Porsche, and budget was a consideration, I would lease a base 911 Carerra – low rent interior and all – before I purchased a used Carerra S.

Carrera v. M3 – M3 all the way. Driving both are obviously very different experiences – the 997 did not say "gotta have it", the M3's sound screamed "sign me up" From the perspective of my personal needs and desires – dynamically, aesthetically and in terms of functionality - the M3 may be perfect. The last time I made such a remark, I was referring to a 911. I consider the current M3 to be a very special offering and opportunity.

In terms of positioning, the F30 M3 Coupe will not be introduced until July 2013 – we won't see cars until the fall of 2013 – about 2 years away. I would not want to be one of the first purchasers. IMO a 3 year M3 lease makes a lot of sense at this moment. In three years, BMW will have had a year to sort out the F30 M3, and the market will have settled a bit in terms of pricing. I will be positioned to pick up a F30, or alternatively keep my E92 - a viable option, or maybe even purchase a sorted out 991.

In the meantime, I'm living in the moment, enjoying the ride, in my engaging iconic E92 BMW M3 - I can not think of a better place....
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Last edited by Capobranco; 12-22-2011 at 02:40 PM.
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  #35  
Old 12-21-2011, 09:28 PM
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Capobronco has said it well.
Interesting to see the F30 M3 change at the same time 991 is going toward production. The Gt3 991 is due near end of 13 or early 14.
So I agree, You gotta live the moment in the M3. Very nice period of time for me.
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  #36  
Old 01-09-2012, 06:47 PM
Kayani_1 Kayani_1 is offline
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If BMW continues with its trend then the M3 will once again be the best all rounder
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  #37  
Old 01-09-2012, 07:43 PM
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There are a lot of very good choices out there.
F30 M3, Nissan GT-R, Porsche 991 Cerrara 43 or the 991 GT3
merc CTSV, SLK
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  #38  
Old 01-13-2012, 06:11 PM
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Originally Posted by dalekressin View Post
There are a lot of very good choices out there.
F30 M3, Nissan GT-R, Porsche 991 Cerrara 43 or the 991 GT3
merc CTSV, SLK
Every time you say "Cerrera" I think of Peter Cetera (not to be confused with Caddy Catera).

Hmm... come to think of it, you look kind of like Peter Cetera. Did you take up doggy dentistry when you left Chicago?
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  #39  
Old 01-14-2012, 10:16 PM
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Originally Posted by quackbury View Post
Every time you say "Cerrera" I think of Peter Cetera (not to be confused with Caddy Catera).

Hmm... come to think of it, you look kind of like Peter Cetera. Did you take up doggy dentistry when you left Chicago?
.... and does he play a mean electric bass, with a pick
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  #40  
Old 01-15-2012, 01:48 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Some irony here

The rennlist post cited was mine. I traded my GTS Cab for an '11 M3 Cab.

Have loved 911's since a young man and since the mid-80's have almost always had some 911 variant in the garage. Also owned a few 3-series along the way.

I don't care much for 'Ring times (none of us could come close to Rohl or any of those guys) or any performance specs. I've tracked a lot and feel confident that one can best judge what car they should buy from the driver's seat, in control. Not from the easy chair with some rag written by someone who makes $$$$ from writing drivel. Mags are good for the pictures but trying to understand how a car feels and responds from breathless sentences is a waste.

If you want a Porsche, by all means get one! Don't look back and don't ask your buddies. It is a great driving experience. If you love cars there is much to like

The M3 is a far more sublime vehicle to my way of thinking, to wit;

- The seats in the M3 are among the very BEST in the automotive world. The closest are the new Cayenne's. Even the M-B S-class seats are down a notch. Nowhere can you get a seat that is at once so supportive and comfortable. Obviously not everyone's physique is the same so YMMV, but I'm 6' and ~ 190 and they just fit soooo well. Before you say "so what?", I've noticed over the years/cars that the two items you touch so much, seats and steering wheel make up a lot of a car's feel. The steering wheel of the M3 is better to my hands too BTW.

- Yes, the P is noticeably quicker. It has more TQ down low and weighs less. But I like the buzz of the M3 and only my GT3's would allow the high RPM hijinx of the M3. And let's face it, either car is plenty fast enough to violate Laws of Man and Physics. Any how the street is no place to test the envelope of either car

- On the track, stock for stock the P will win. But if you mod them both, the P will still win but the M will be less demanding/dangerous near and at the limit. Only Porsche and Lotus have made cars that you can go right from the showroom and whip like a rented mule all day and expect them to take it. The only other car in that league is a Z 06.

- what I really LOVE about the M is that it has more personalities than a trans-sexual schizophrenic on steroids and crack. I can set it up to feel like a luxury car for cruising or a pi$$ed off SOB and many points in between. Not aware of any car so flexible. The M is a pleasure in just about any driving situation, the P... not so much.

- am partial to Cabs now and really like the hardtop cab. I know it adds weight but the quiet, stiffness and shelter from the cold are wonderful and no rag top can compete.

- my children are growing and they love to go with Daddy in his "convertible". Back seat in the M beats the P hands-down... nolo contendere

No idea why you're trying to compare a tried and true car with something no one has seen or driven. When I go back to a Porsche will likely be for an early 70's S. The VW acquisition has rendered a 911 that is now more like many others on the road. It may be "better" than previous 911's in some categories, but from what I've heard so far from real P-people (including those who sell them) it has lost a lot of "Porsche-ness".

What I would tell you is that if you want a really GREAT Porsche and you don't need a back seat, the Boxster Spyder is a fabulous sportscar. I mean it has it all. Balance, handling, good power etc. The Gayman is too small for me, I feel somewhat claustrophobic

In any case, buy what YOU LIKE... life's too short and we know you're leaving in a Caddy stationwagon.

cheers
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  #41  
Old 01-15-2012, 06:26 AM
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Best written, most informative and entertaining post I have seen on BF in a very, very long time. Props. (The fact that I agree with you wholeheartedly notwthstanding).
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  #42  
Old 01-15-2012, 08:54 AM
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Great discussion and a lot of great logic.
Interesting photo comparo Quackb: Thanks
Sorry for the wrong spelling of the P car.
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  #43  
Old 01-16-2012, 02:13 PM
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It's the snobs who think the P car is not like the old P cars. It's not, it's better. Let those old folks die off and the new generation P car drivers who don't care of the history. That day will come when Porsche crowns the Cayman its flagship.
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  #44  
Old 01-16-2012, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Dave 330i View Post
It's the snobs who think the P car is not like the old P cars. It's not, it's better. Let those old folks die off and the new generation P car drivers who don't care of the history. That day will come when Porsche crowns the Cayman its flagship.
This quote, as written would pretty much be evidence that you are not "Da King of Common Sense" you proclaim to be.

"Better" is a relative and non-specific adjective. it leaves unanswered what metric is being employed. If one has different dynamics the term becomes meaningless. Only pre-decided agreement gives it relevance.

The rest of your post...? It is easy to infer that you are not very or quite mature. But perhaps you didn't really mean that...
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Old 01-16-2012, 04:30 PM
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......
In any case, buy what YOU LIKE... life's too short and we know you're leaving in a Caddy stationwagon.

cheers
+1

In the past month I have thoroughly enjoyed my new M3. Occasionally, when I see a 911, I have a momentary lapse - "maybe I should of..." - silly second guessing instead of celebrating the moment - and I know better. Well I had an opportunity to exorcise my Porsche demon this past weekend. While having my M3 1200 mile serviced, I was offered a nearly new 997 Porsche Carrera with $20 K in options including PDK to test drive – nice - Their only request, "bring it back in one piece."

When I approached the 911 - I thought, "oh boy - damn I love this car – Porsche There Is No Substitute..." The iconic styling of the 997 is so right, and evokes many fond memories and emotions. Sitting in the driver's seat my HWP 6' 3" frame feels at home - ignition to the left - so cool, erect windshield – check - yep, it is all how I remember it...

…...so why not go back to Porsche? Once I get past the iconic styling - it's all M3. Yeah, the view of the Porsche hood diving between the front fenders has always been cool, but the M3's power bulge on the hood is equally exciting – inviting me to push the start button - let's play. Oh and a word about fit and finish, although my Porsche had the very spendy leather interior option, the M3 is just superior. Moreover, the M3 possesses bank vault solidity, the 911, surprisingly, had a few rattles. The 911's structure simply did not feel as solid.

Driving position - all M3. I actually have to move the seat forward a bit in the M3…....very rare. I have a real dead pedal for my left foot in my M3. The seats in the M3 are way superior - nicer more supple hides and perfect bolsters. Drive the 911 eight hours…...a very long day – in the M3…... easy.

Friends, fam and K9s – I love to drive and I seek out adventure in the mountains of Western MD and WVA. It is nice to be able to share my passion with others. In the past month my GSD has learned a new word - M3 – means run out to the silver car, sit at the passenger door, and bark as if to say "let's go already!" - I gotta love the enthusiasm.

Fun – both cars offer an abundance of performance – way beyond the limits of most public roads, and drivers. The Porsche's experience is a little more visceral – if not raw. You sit much lower, closer to the ground in the Porsche. The tighter interior dimensions of the 911 impart more of a sports car feel and the steering of the 911 is incredibly light and communicative – but borders on being edgy – ditto the suspension. Yeah, I know it's hard to bring the tail around in a modern 997 but I jus' have this nagging doubt - "where's the limit?" ... "Will I be able to catch it if I cook a corner?" - jus' gives me pause.

The M3 inspires confidence – fun, predictable, and endowed with a suspension that not only communicates the condition of the road surface but is also more compliant. The ability to dial in throttle response, steering effort, and compliance on the M3 ices the cake. BTW both make wonderful sounds but the guttural siren song of the M3 entices - jus' nail it - head to the mountains boys for new adventures…...

When I returned the 911 Carrera, I realized I had experienced an epiphany, no longer would the 911 entrance me. The M3 is a decathlon champion - I have simply never experienced a car that did so many things so well and looked so good doing them. If you have never experienced a 911 Carrera - you should - indeed, that experience will allow you to even more fully appreciate the M3.
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Last edited by Capobranco; 01-16-2012 at 07:14 PM.
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  #46  
Old 01-16-2012, 07:59 PM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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>>If you have never experienced a 911 Carrera - you should - indeed, that experience will allow you to even more fully appreciate the M3.<<

It depends what you mean by "appreciate." The M3 is a more comfortable daily-driver and has two real back seats. However, from a standpoint of outright performance, driving entertainment and visceral feel (albeit, at a $30,000 price difference), well...

Porsche: there is no substitute (except of course for Ferrari, at a $130,000 price difference, lol).
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Old 01-17-2012, 05:42 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
>>If you have never experienced a 911 Carrera - you should - indeed, that experience will allow you to even more fully appreciate the M3.<<

It depends what you mean by "appreciate." The M3 is a more comfortable daily-driver and has two real back seats. However, from a standpoint of outright performance, driving entertainment and visceral feel (albeit, at a $30,000 price difference), well...

Porsche: there is no substitute (except of course for Ferrari, at a $130,000 price difference, lol).
appreciate can be defined as "to be grateful for" or "to recognize". Unlike "better" it is not a term of comparison and is a verb, not an adjective. It connotes no comparison. But thanks for the flattery of emulation.

If outright performance means speed and acceleration, or lap times, then I agree as I noted in my post. But the road is no track, so overall I currently prefer the M3 to the latest 911. But I might change my mind and get a 911 again. That's the great thing about cars, no lawyers or alimony involved in the divorce. However, no P is as flexible as the M3 in terms of adaptation to my needs, so personally would prefer it as garage queen and an old one will do.

A Ferrari is no Porsche. When I was into tracking watching the noobs bring their F's to the track was a giggle. We would give them 4 laps, +/- one or two before the brakes would cook and they would have to pit. F doesn't really make a track car short of their street-illegal racer. A Scag could be used for longer but would overheat easily, so no hot days.

On the street F's draw a lot of attention. Some may like that, I never did. As a precision driving machine the P feel was more appealing to me. So while I have had a few F's, I always went back to P. So I would not say that either was a substitute for the other. More like chalk and cheese.

Last edited by allegretto; 01-17-2012 at 05:48 AM.
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  #48  
Old 01-17-2012, 06:00 AM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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>>A Ferrari is no Porsche. When I was into tracking watching the noobs bring their F's to the track was a giggle.<<

1) Don't confuse the driver with the car.

2) I don't know when your track days were, but today's F458 is a very different animal from the Ferraris of the 1990s and early 2000s.

3) My track days were in the early-to-mid '90s, and back then the Porsche's stock brake pads were cooked and the fluid was boiling within a couple of laps too, which is why everyone ran "Cool Carbons" (the brand of the day), higher-spec fluid and ducted more air to the rotors.

4) According to this, the F458 runs the 'Ring in the 7:30s while the GT3 runs it in the 7:40s:
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

5) I don't like the image of the Ferrari, either, but it absolutely crushes the M3 under any metric except "practicality" (the Ferrari is more fun to drive at ANY speed-- street or track) and, performance-wise, the only street Porsche that can ALMOST match it is the GT3 RS, which costs almost as much.

Last edited by logicalthought; 01-17-2012 at 06:01 AM.
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  #49  
Old 01-17-2012, 06:16 AM
allegretto allegretto is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by logicalthought View Post
>>A Ferrari is no Porsche. When I was into tracking watching the noobs bring their F's to the track was a giggle.<<

1) Don't confuse the driver with the car.

2) I don't know when your track days were, but today's F458 is a very different animal from the Ferraris of the 1990s and early 2000s.

3) My track days were in the early-to-mid '90s, and back then the Porsche's stock brake pads were cooked and the fluid was boiling within a couple of laps too, which is why everyone ran "Cool Carbons" (the brand of the day), higher-spec fluid and ducted more air to the rotors.

4) According to this, the F458 runs the 'Ring in the 7:30s while the GT3 runs it in the 7:40s:
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?fID...3&viewThread=y

5) I don't like the image of the Ferrari, either, but it absolutely crushes the M3 under any metric except "practicality" (the Ferrari is more fun to drive at ANY speed-- street or track) and, performance-wise, the only street Porsche that can ALMOST match it is the GT3 RS, which costs almost as much.
Oh my,

1) difficult to do, I'd say. In fact it IS my point and why I currently prefer the M3. It's about metrics

2) Yes, I didn't track/race 458's. But can only speak from my personal experience. How long have you been racing with or against 458's?

3) 964's and 993's were not as reliable as 996's and 7's out of the box on the track. However 348's, 355's and TR's were non-starters on the track except in the "competition" forms. So even then, the P's were far better at the track than F's

4) I don't drive the 'Ring, so I can't say too much about it. Are those your 'Ring times? How do 'Ring times relate to your driving experience? Do you think you can go to the P or F store and buy a car set up similarly to the ones the companies run at the 'Ring? Marketing...

5) The only metric I care for is how I use it. And in those categories the M3 crushes any Ferrari. You may feel differently, and that's fine. In NY a GT3RS costs almost as much as a 458??? Prices must be different there...
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  #50  
Old 01-17-2012, 06:27 AM
logicalthought logicalthought is offline
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You're making some "red herring" arguments there, as I'm only talking about the Ferraris of TODAY, and no, I've never driven on the track with a 458 but the reviews and the lap times speak for themselves. For that matter, the cover story of one of the new British car mags compares the new 991 to the Audi R8 to the Nissan GTR to the M3 and concludes that while the M3 is great for what it is, it isn't even in the same league as any of those other cars: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Communi...11-group-test/

What do "my ring times" have to do with anything? (And I've never driven the 'Ring, anyway.) Again, we're discussing the CAR and not the DRIVER.

You're right in that the GT3 RS is around $150,000 while the Ferrari, of course, is north of $200,000... my mistake there.
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