2009 Carrera S or F30 M3

Originally Posted by logicalthought

You're making some "red herring" arguments there, as I'm only talking about the Ferraris of TODAY, and no, I've never driven on the track with a 458 but the reviews and the lap times speak for themselves. For that matter, the cover story of one of the new British car mags compares the new 991 to the Audi R8 to the Nissan GTR to the M3 and concludes that while the M3 is great for what it is, it isn't even in the same league as any of those other cars: http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/Communi...11-group-test/

What do "my ring times" have to do with anything? (And I've never driven the 'Ring, anyway.) Again, we're discussing the CAR and not the DRIVER.

You're right in that the GT3 RS is around $150,000 while the Ferrari, of course, is north of $200,000... my mistake there.

Hey, all good here, just having fun

But for me, the car is my tool, I'm not its tool. As such what is important to me is how I like it and intend to use it, not what some guy who writes for $$$$$ says. The tests they employ bear little resemblance to my driving habits on all but the best and most open of roads. And, I don't care anyway, I'm not Walter Rohl.

Years of racing have brought me to the point where public road speeds are calm and relaxing and I have no desire to street race under any circumstances. I do gas-it now and again but only when the way is empty.

My "road test" parameters concern items they ignore or give little note. That's OK with me. Owned a GT-R long enough to flip it for a profit when they first emerged. Awful car for my (and many others') purposes. Never driven an R8, looks good from some angles, but not practical for me except as a fourth car, and if I owned a forth it likely would not be that one. 991? Well already said what the plans are for future P's. So while I would agree all those cars would produce better lap times, none of them would suit my purpose as well as an M3 Cab. So for me, the M3 wins the test.

What's wrong with saying that?

>>What's wrong with saying that?<<

Absolutely nothing. In fact, the M3 is definitely the most practical daily-driver of all of them.

Originally Posted by logicalthought

>>If you have never experienced a 911 Carrera - you should - indeed, that experience will allow you to even more fully appreciate the M3.<<

It depends what you mean by "appreciate." The M3 is a more comfortable daily-driver and has two real back seats. However, from a standpoint of outright performance, driving entertainment and visceral feel (albeit, at a $30,000 price difference), well...

Porsche: there is no substitute (except of course for Ferrari, at a $130,000 price difference, lol).

hmmm been drinking the Kool-Aid over at the Junker Store....

This past fall, after driving the M3 and a new 997 Porsche Carrera back to back, I concluded in terms of performance, that both cars were evenly matched from my seat of the pants perspective. In terms of reviews, attached is a Car and Driver test that speaks for itself.

http://media.caranddriver.com/files/...9-bmw-m3-3.pdf

It would not surprise me if you were able to present a test that showed a different result.
The performance of a 997 Porsche Carrera and M3, both equipped with DCT/PDK, are comparable. In terms of the 991, I understand performance has been enhanced at the expense of driving entertainment and "visceral" feel - I look forward to a face off on US soil.

In general, "entertainment" and "visceral feel" are subjective. The 911 Carrera and M3 end up at the finish line at about the same time but how they get there is quite different. I find both the M3 and the 911 Carrera to be very different experiences but equally entertaining, if not "visceral". Both offer individual unique charms and showcase each brand's design priorities and philosophies.

In the end, if you truly believe the Porsche - either 997 or 991 - is the more satisfying ride - I urge you to drive your passion. Live in the moment.

btw this is my personal Porsche favorite in terms of raw visceral entertainment...

>>...after driving the M3 and a new 997 Porsche Carrera back to back, I concluded in terms of performance, that both cars were evenly matched... attached is a Car and Driver test that speaks for itself.<<

That test wasn't the Carrera S, though, which is what I thought we were discussing. For that matter, the new Boss Mustang is at least the M3's equal on the track and has an awesome engine note of its own. (It's a shame about the crappy interior, but I guess that's where the "missing $30,000" went).

>>In terms of the 991, I understand performance has been enhanced at the expense of driving entertainment and "visceral" feel - I look forward to a face off on US soil.<<

"Car" magazine (linked in my earlier post) has an excellent face-off on British soil. If you think "the soil" matters, well, okay.

>>I find both the M3 and the 911 Carrera to be very different experiences but equally entertaining... Both offer individual unique charms...<<

And I find my M3 to be way too heavy and rather "charmless," albeit with an awesome engine (and whatever "charm" ANY convertible has on a nice day when the roof goes down). I got it because I wanted a sporty convertible with usable back seats, but if I had to do it over again I probably would have gone Porsche as you can cram two thin adults back there for short trips (I've been there myself) and that would have been enough for me. When this lease is up in the spring of 2014, that's probably what I'll do.

Tough call dude, can't help you there.

Originally Posted by Rehabdoc67

Tough call dude, can't help you there.

I'm down the road from you. I'll come by for a test drive to help me make up my mind.

Originally Posted by Rehabdoc67

Tough call dude, can't help you there.

Is your Porsche leaking oil? I see you have a mat under the front end of the car.

Originally Posted by beden1

Is your Porsche leaking oil? I see you have a mat under the front end of the car.

Damn, I know they keep modernizing that car but I sure hope they haven't moved the engine into the trunk!

Originally Posted by logicalthought

Damn, I know they keep modernizing that car but I sure hope they haven't moved the engine into the trunk!

Good pick up. What was I thinking?

Yes, and it's driving me nuts. I pop the hood and can't even find the engine in there.

Interseting discussion. For those who have driven both, what are your thoughts on the r8 vs a carrera s? I know a few die hard car guys who own r8s and absolutely love them (these are people who have owned fetraris and porsches) And they're not much more than a comparable carrera. no I can't afford either one, but I may have the opportunity to take each one out for a day.

Well .... I have driven them. The R8 is a very wide car. It definitely has a nice driver feel and appeal. It performs well too. Compare that to Nissan GT-R; both are fast big and furious. Neither are like the 997 IN MY VIEW.
My M3 is a fantastic car, somewhat of an inbetween size & performance.
The discussion goes on and on.

Originally Posted by bmw325

Interseting discussion. For those who have driven both, what are your thoughts on the r8 vs a carrera s? I know a few die hard car guys who own r8s and absolutely love them (these are people who have owned fetraris and porsches) And they're not much more than a comparable carrera. no I can't afford either one, but I may have the opportunity to take each one out for a day.

carrera S and R8 are not in the same league.
Sure both can get you a speeding ticket, but R8 will get you the ticket faster.
I like the weight of the carrera s. The appearance too

If you want about the same measurable performance, with moderately useful back seat and way more comfort, then M3 is the answer.

If you don't need the back seat, can take the pounding, noise and abruptness, and want that feeling of a more direct connection to the car/road, then the Porsche fits better.

I certainly like the Porsche better as an occasional car, but not for anywhere near every day or for commuting.

Maybe I'm getting old ...

:-)

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

If you don't need the back seat, can take the pounding, noise and abruptness, and want that feeling of a more direct connection to the car/road, then the Porsche fits better. I certainly like the Porsche better as an occasional car, but not for anywhere near every day or for commuting.
:-)

Sadly, based upon what I've read about the new electric steering and various electronic suspension gimmicks in the new 911, you might find it all TOO comfortable for commuting. (And hey, the back seat is now a little bigger, too!)

I can only hope that by the time my M3 lease is up:

a) Porsche has switched back to hydraulic steering (or really figures out the electric thing), and

b) I can somehow afford a new Carrera S cab, because those slightly bigger and more comfortable back seats make it more useful to me than a 997, and the weight savings and vastly improved folding roof are nice, too.

If (a) and (b) don't both occur, I may just buy my M3 when the lease is up, as the new one-- if the weight of the new 335i is any indication-- will apparently be almost 100 pounds heavier than my current porker.

carrera S and R8 are not in the same league.
Sure both can get you a speeding ticket, but R8 will get you the ticket faster.
I like the weight of the carrera s. The appearance too

BS

If the R8 4.2 is AS FAST as the new Carrera S, it's an accomplishment. To suggest it's not in the same league is absurd or ignorant.

Further, similarly equipped, the R8 4.2 is still significantly more expensive.

Lastly, the discussion is about M3 vs Carrera S, specifically because they're two cars reasonably close in performance but one is small/light/raw, while the other is more powerful yet bigger/heavier. Just like the R8.

Obviously of the three, I'd buy M3 (already bought E90 M3), but 911 is way further up the list than R8 4.2.


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Originally Posted by dalekressin

carrera S and R8 are not in the same league.
Sure both can get you a speeding ticket, but R8 will get you the ticket faster.
I like the weight of the carrera s. The appearance too

To say you're wrong is to be kind and to minimize the difference between reality and your false claim.

I didn't research it before my initial "BS" response post. It was just obvious to me that cars with about the same power, but one much lighter and with a much more fabulous history of stunning performance, would result in the light car being competitive, despite slightly less power.

So tonight I hopped on fastestlaps to take a look and see if in fact my theory had been proven out by any tests. I'd say you can ignore any one test as a fluke. But when the clear majority (especially if you ignore the "wet handling" test) come out on one side of the ledger, that side wins.

In this case, not only is the R8 not "in a different league", it's in fact NOT EVEN AS FAST as the new Carrera S.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors...carrera_s.html

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/audi...i_quattro.html


R8s do have their virtues and are quite interesting, cool cars. But being faster than the new Carrera S, or being a better bargain than a similar performance Porsche are not among those benefits.

A different league? Eh, only if slower, less storied and more expensive are the league qualities you're discussing.


Edit: link to MBOARD.COM video of R8 4.2 vs. E92 M3 (spoiler alert - the M3 is faster in a straight line):

Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

To say you're wrong is to be kind and to minimize the difference between reality and your false claim.

I didn't research it before my initial "BS" response post. It was just obvious to me that cars with about the same power, but one much lighter and with a much more fabulous history of stunning performance, would result in the light car being competitive, despite slightly less power.

So tonight I hopped on fastestlaps to take a look and see if in fact my theory had been proven out by any tests. I'd say you can ignore any one test as a fluke. But when the clear majority (especially if you ignore the "wet handling" test) come out on one side of the ledger, that side wins.

In this case, not only is the R8 not "in a different league", it's in fact NOT EVEN AS FAST as the new Carrera S.

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/pors...carrera_s.html

http://www.fastestlaps.com/cars/audi...i_quattro.html


R8s do have their virtues and are quite interesting, cool cars. But being faster than the new Carrera S, or being a better bargain than a similar performance Porsche are not among those benefits.

A different league? Eh, only if slower, less storied and more expensive are the league qualities you're discussing.


Edit: link to MBOARD.COM video of R8 4.2 vs. E92 M3 (spoiler alert - the M3 is faster in a straight line):

I'm glad you at least threw this bone to the R8 as it is a real head turner.

I was looking at several Porsche 911S on display this past weekend at a tennis tournament in Delray, FL. $115,000 for a well optioned coupe. Nice looking car except it is getting even more bloated looking with every passing year, and now especially with their new model.

I'd still take my ZO6 over any car mentioned in this thread. It has ample storage, stunning performance, and is an overall relative bargain at $85-95,000. But, for an everyday car, I'd take the M3 sedan followed by the M3 coupe.

Originally Posted by beden1

I was looking at several Porsche 911S... Nice looking car except it is getting even more bloated looking...

That's one way to look at it. The other is that they increased the interior room and wheelbase while taking almost 100 pounds out of the car. Porsche lists the weight of the MT version at just 3075 pounds... In this day and age that's stunning!

Originally Posted by logicalthought

That's one way to look at it. The other is that they increased the interior room and wheelbase while taking almost 100 pounds out of the car. Porsche lists the weight of the MT version at just 3075 pounds... In this day and age that's stunning!

It's a fantastic testament to their dedication to building great cars; it had to take a ton of engineering effort to pull that off.

How did BMW do with the new, larger 3 series?

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Originally Posted by Kurt_OH

It's a fantastic testament to their dedication to building great cars; it had to take a ton of engineering effort to pull that off. How did BMW do with the new, larger 3 series?

According to Car & Driver, the new car *gained* 77 pounds. In fairness, though, according to some other specs I've seen, the weight is unchanged. Regardless, 3591 pounds (the C&D figure) are at least 200 too many for a small sedan in this price range, but BMW obviously would rather enjoy their fat profit margins than use more aluminum. ("More aluminum" is what Porsche did.) Hey, it *is* a business they're running and not a hobby, but they've been increasingly living off their performance reputation from long ago rather than moving the bar forward, and every year the comparison tests between their models and the competition get closer and closer and they're losing more of those tests than ever before.

Originally Posted by logicalthought

According to Car & Driver, the new car *gained* 77 pounds. In fairness, though, according to some other specs I've seen, the weight is unchanged. Regardless, 3591 pounds (the C&D figure) are at least 200 too many for a small sedan in this price range, but BMW obviously would rather enjoy their fat profit margins than use more aluminum. ("More aluminum" is what Porsche did.) Hey, it *is* a business they're running and not a hobby, but they've been increasingly living off their performance reputation from long ago rather than moving the bar forward, and every year the comparison tests between their models and the competition get closer and closer and they're losing more of those tests than ever before.

Agree somewhat but Porsche has a much bigger margin to play with on the 911. Will be Intersting to see what BMW does with the m3.

i saw a 991 (S) one on the street this weekend. it is a dazzling looking car. it also is MUCH more expensive than an M3, and theres that whole new model year thing along with the new steering thing, and the no trunk thing. but the little changes are so evolutionary and well done, it's hard not to admire.

Originally Posted by bmw325

Agree somewhat but Porsche has a much bigger margin to play with on the 911. Will be Intersting to see what BMW does with the m3.

I'd say BMW has the larger opportunity for improvement, given how light the P cars already were.

But I don't expect it. I expect larger, softer cars throughout the range.


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Originally Posted by highyo

i saw a 991 (S) one on the street this weekend... theres... the no trunk thing...

I'll betcha (but haven't confirmed this) that top down, the 911 cab has more room in its storage boot (up front) than the top-down M3 has in its trunk.