328i v 335i

It is way too early to declare that the N20 e gone has problems. Just because the N54 engine has a particular issue doesn't mean the N20 will as well. By most accounts the N20 is a great engine, time will tell is if it is reliable as well.

Originally Posted by 3ismagic#

It is way too early to declare that the N20 e gone has problems. Just because the N54 engine has a particular issue doesn't mean the N20 will as well. By most accounts the N20 is a great engine, time will tell is if it is reliable as well.

+1 - hopefully BMW learned from the N54's issues.

I choose none of the above. I'm interested in a 320d or a 325d- efficiency and eco-friendliness plays a substantial part in decisions/interest for me thesedays.

Originally Posted by 16n69

Experience, intelligence...wake up & smell the coffee

Your posts don't inspire me to think of the word intelligent. It's quite obvious you would prefer an e36 over any later BMW so why come here and complain about every piddly little detail?

Originally Posted by jackson328xi

I completely agree with you about considering cost, and that BMW's are very rewarding to drive and own.

I think I am trying to say that there is clearly a higher level of reliability that can be achieved. Japanese companies can build a more reliable car for half the price (and half the fun). On the other hand, Porsche can build a more reliable car (for twice the price) that is far more performance oriented and rewarding to drive than a 3 series. I don't feel like those other companies know something the BMW engineers don't. I think it is a business model to keep the service department profitable.

Clearly I still think the trade off is worth it or I would not drive one. I suppose I should copy this to the F30 wish list.

I don't entirely disagree but there are other factors, such as environmental constraints, country of manufacture, labor laws, export, etc that affect pricing to a given level of quality. Then there are the advantages of scale and/or 'sisterhood' that many Japanese companies enjoy that some Germans don't, for example Honda/Acura, Lexus/Toyota, etc. Yes Audi and now Porsche benefit from their VW parenthood, and I wouldn't be surprised to see those two bringing us 'more for the money' compared to BMW and Benz owing to corporate synergies, sharing of component design and manufacture/sourcing, and so on.

Country of manufacture matters. A lot. I heard somewhere that an X5 (base msrp ~$50k) produced in Germany would have to sell for around $80k, making it uncompetitive. I believe the Cayenne is or was produced in Slovakia? Labor laws, vacations, wages and culture etc are contributors, and the sweeteners like those the US states throw out for building factories have a lot to do with that too. Just look at what Tennessee "paid" VW to build cars there, and Georgia before that to Kia. A lot of times this pays off in the medium to long term.

The Spartanburg plant has done a lot to revive the SC economy, and the Greenville area, once obscure, is doing quite well owing to all the fairly well-paid BMW emps who call it home. Take a trip there (on a weekend) and you'll believe it may have the highest per-capita drivership of BMWs in the country. (Of course this is due to the sweet employee leases, but a case can easily be made that even this raises imputed income and average standard of living in such a region, and it doesn't really cost BMW that much at all).

There was already much complexity in the world of auto manufacture and sales, and globalization has upped the level quite a bit.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Your posts don't inspire me to think of the word intelligent. It's quite obvious you would prefer an e36 over any later BMW so why come here and complain about every piddly little detail?

Unless your IQ is higher than your HP, don't INSULT & ATTACK me?
I have a right, as does anyone else on this forum, to voice my complaints about anything, and what YOU deem "piddly" others may not! Who do you think you are?

Originally Posted by 16n69

Unless your IQ is higher than your HP, don't INSULT & ATTACK me?
I have a right, as does anyone else on this forum, to voice my complaints about anything, and what YOU deem "piddly" others may not! Who do you think you are?

Well, he could buy one of these: http://www.autobytel.com/top-10-cars...r-cars/sedans/

Ya know, I've been thinking about this for a few days leaning towards the n20 (having driven neither the n20 nor n55 in the f30, of course). My thoughts basically went too: it sounds quite fast and torquey and I'd probably tune it and readily bump it up to 335 levels, right?

Thinking about this more though, I'm starting to question it a bit more. Here's my breakdown:

1. There is a $7000 price difference.

2. For that price difference, you get the inline six and more power. You also, I'm ASSUMING, get a more robust transmission & rear end. Stiffened chassis to handle the extra torque. And all the associated systems required to handle more power - i.e. intercooler,hardened vacuum lines, etc. (this carries a weight penalty, but you also don't necessarily want to run a tuned n 20 through all the stock systems for a long time and expect great reliability).

- Also, bear in mind, that those systems are still fully covered under warranty.

3. If you care, you also get 18" standard wheels, Moonroof, Alarm System, auto-dimming mirror, power & memory seats, lumbar, adaptive xenons...?

...

Now, honestly, that's still alot of dough. I'm guessing with the option packages most will have a seperation of $5,000. Now add the likelihood of tuning the n20 to get the additional power, and that drops the price difference to maybe $4,200. Now on top of that lets assume that you'll want a larger intercooler since you are maxing out the stock turbo - probably drops the price difference to $3,200.

...

I still really like the lower weight and added fuel economy of the 328, and I think it'll largely come down to driving feel for me, but I've started to re-evaluate the concept of simply tuning an n20 to give me the output of the n55 and thinking i'm saving alot of money.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Ya know, I've been thinking about this for a few days leaning towards the n20 (having driven neither the n20 nor n55 in the f30, of course). My thoughts basically went too: it sounds quite fast and torquey and I'd probably tune it and readily bump it up to 335 levels, right?

Thinking about this more though, I'm starting to question it a bit more. Here's my breakdown:

1. There is a $7000 price difference.

2. For that price difference, you get the inline six and more power. You also, I'm ASSUMING, get a more robust transmission & rear end. Stiffened chassis to handle the extra torque. And all the associated systems required to handle more power - i.e. intercooler,hardened vacuum lines, etc. (this carries a weight penalty, but you also don't necessarily want to run a tuned n 20 through all the stock systems for a long time and expect great reliability).

- Also, bear in mind, that those systems are still fully covered under warranty.

3. If you care, you also get 18" standard wheels, Moonroof, Alarm System, auto-dimming mirror, power & memory seats, lumbar, adaptive xenons...?

...

Now, honestly, that's still alot of dough. I'm guessing with the option packages most will have a seperation of $5,000. Now add the likelihood of tuning the n20 to get the additional power, and that drops the price difference to maybe $4,200. Now on top of that lets assume that you'll want a larger intercooler since you are maxing out the stock turbo - probably drops the price difference to $3,200.

...

I still really like the lower weight and added fuel economy of the 328, and I think it'll largely come down to driving feel for me, but I've started to re-evaluate the concept of simply tuning an n20 to give me the output of the n55 and thinking i'm saving alot of money.

I went through a similar analysis when deciding to buy a 1999 323i versus 328i. I ended up purchasing the 328i as it came with more standard features which, if added to the 323i, reduced the price differential. And of course I got the larger engine in the 328i. I imagine a similar situation would exit today between the 328 and 335.

Like to change my vote and select 328i however after seeing the Fiat Abarth spot I may forget BMW altogether and go with the Fiat.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

I still really like the lower weight and added fuel economy of the 328, and I think it'll largely come down to driving feel for me, but I've started to re-evaluate the concept of simply tuning an n20 to give me the output of the n55 and thinking i'm saving alot of money.

If you need/want the power of the 335i you should definitely skip the N20 and go right to the 335i - buying a car that you immediately know you need to tune to be satisfied seems like a bad idea.

I think it's impossible to make a call on which car I'd want without being able to drive them both. At least the 328i will have a decent auto transmission this time and not the GM junk in the E9X.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

...I'm guessing with the option packages most will have a seperation of $5,000. Now add the likelihood of tuning the n20 to get the additional power, and that drops the price difference to maybe $4,200. Now on top of that lets assume that you'll want a larger intercooler since you are maxing out the stock turbo - probably drops the price difference to $3,200...

i came up with about a $3,500 price difference, based on options that i actually WANT on each of the cars...aside from the increased performance, one could argue that one is also getting an engine with a longer track record, hence more time for refinement and less issues

i am concerned with the discussions about whether there will be a "new" engine in the F30 335i the 2nd year...if it's just a "retune" of the N55 that can also be done to the 1st year engine i wouldn't be too concerned, but if there are other major changes, or a completely new engine, i would consider putting off my purchase

Originally Posted by Bimmer3oi

i am concerned with the discussions about whether there will be a "new" engine in the F30 335i the 2nd year...if it's just a "retune" of the N55 that can also be done to the 1st year engine i wouldn't be too concerned, but if there are other major changes, or a completely new engine, i would consider putting off my purchase

If history is any indication a newer, more powerful engine is a possibility after the first / second year:

E36: 325 -> 328 (I was young to BMW during E36 times so I'm not up on the details)
E46: 323 -> 325, 328 -> 330 (after 2nd year of production
E9x: 325 -> 328, 330 -> 335 (after 1st year of production)

Originally Posted by 16n69

Unless your IQ is higher than your HP, don't INSULT & ATTACK me?
I have a right, as does anyone else on this forum, to voice my complaints about anything, and what YOU deem "piddly" others may not! Who do you think you are?

Sorry if you don't like my insinuation but frankly I think most of your posts are shallow and borderline trolling. You tend to throw out a lot of unsupportable statements and seem to dislike BMW in general.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Sorry if you don't like my insinuation but frankly I think most of your posts are shallow and borderline trolling. You tend to throw out a lot of unsupportable statements and seem to dislike BMW in general.

Borderline "trolling", don't know what that is???
Many voice strong opinions & complaints on this and other forums without this kind of arrogant finger pointing of labeling.
I LOVE BMW...but HATE the direction they are going...can you say, sellout?

Originally Posted by 16n69

Borderline "trolling", don't know what that is???
Many voice strong opinions & complaints on this and other forums without this kind of arrogant finger pointing of labeling.
I LOVE BMW...but HATE the direction they are going...can you say, sellout?

There are more elegant ways to make your points.

You obviously think BMW should be more of a niche company and make cars that appeal strictly to enthusiasts. That does not make them a sellout as you say. They are not in business to make you alone happy and their overall sales success says they know what they are doing. And personally, I love my 328i e90 and have no doubt it's the best sport sedan in it's class. Once I drove the 328 I never even considered a C class, A4, IS, G37 or anything else. I have little doubt the F30 will be an even better sport sedan.

I test drove a new 528i with the N20. It was a nice little engine, but you don't want to, nor have any need to rev it above 4500 rpm, especially if you are used to the I6 rev.

As far as fuel economy, I recently bought a Chevy Cruze Eco 6spd as our third car, it has a turbo 1.4. I use it for long freeway travel. It is said to be the most fuel saving gas car you can get. Someone broke the record in it, did 65 mpg in it on a 700-mile trip.

I can easily do 45 mpg on the freeway in it, but if I want to open it up and have some fun driving it, the mpg dives to around 27 mpg.

Just to give you guys some idea what to expect when you think about having fun driving the new 328i. If you buy it for the mpg, don't expect to have much fun in it.

Originally Posted by dtc100

I test drove a new 528i with the N20. It was a nice little engine, but you don't want to, nor have any need to rev it above 4500 rpm, especially if you are used to the I6 rev.

As far as fuel economy, I recently bought a Chevy Cruze Eco 6spd as our third car, it has a turbo 1.4. I use it for long freeway travel. It is said to be the most fuel saving gas car you can get. Someone broke the record in it, did 65 mpg in it on a 700-mile trip.

I can easily do 45 mpg on the freeway in it, but if I want to open it up and have some fun driving it, the mpg dives to around 27 mpg.

Just to give you guys some idea what to expect when you think about having fun driving the new 328i. If you buy it for the mpg, don't expect to have much fun in it.

Isn't that the point of a turbo 4? Under normal conditions which is for most of us 90% of the time, you aren't heavily into the turbo and are getting great gas mileage. When you want more acceleration, it's there when the turbo's kick in. I doubt many on this board buy a 3 series for the mileage but we are not typical 3 series owners. Also, I would not mind getting better mileage than the 21-22 I get in the city. This is 75% of my time in the car.

Have you all forgotten the bmw I4's of the 80s and 90s?

The very first M3 was... gasp.,,, an I4!!! And it made less power than the N20.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Isn't that the point of a turbo 4? Under normal conditions which is for most of us 90% of the time, you aren't heavily into the turbo and are getting great gas mileage. When you want more acceleration, it's there when the turbo's kick in. I doubt many on this board buy a 3 series for the mileage but we are not typical 3 series owners. Also, I would not mind getting better mileage than the 21-22 I get in the city. This is 75% of my time in the car.

One can baby the I6 and get great mileage too. The new 528i with the N52 I6 has 32 mpg on freeway.

The point is, don't make yourself believe a turbo 4 is the answer to fuel economy. Now if you think the N20 is better because you prefer the higher low end torque over the high revving nature of the N52, I have no problem with that.

Just don't justify it that you do so for fuel economy. If fuel economy (or saving money) is your goal, you would be better getting a Cruze Eco, which is also quite fun to drive, has more standard and advanced features than my 328i, at half the price.

Originally Posted by dtc100

One can baby the I6 and get great mileage too. The new 528i with the N52 I6 has 32 mpg on freeway.

The point is, don't make yourself believe a turbo 4 is the answer to fuel economy. Now if you think the N20 is better because you prefer the higher low end torque over the high revving nature of the N52, I have no problem with that.

Just don't justify it that you do so for fuel economy. If fuel economy (or saving money) is your goal, you would be better getting a Cruze Eco, which is also quite fun to drive, has more standard and advanced features than my 328i, at half the price.

I think you're still missing the point. In city driving over he 4 years I've had a 328 e90 my city fuel economy has averaged 21-22 mpg. Ward's has already said they got over 25 mpg in city driving with the N20. I know you prefer the I6 and in general I do too but you are 100% wrong in saying a turbo 4 won't get better mileage than an I6. Frankly if you look at just the basic facts which is 2.0 liters vs 3.0 liters there's less piston area to start with which all other things being equal the 4 cylinder should get 33% better mileage without the effect of the turbo's.

I've gotten 32 mpg on the highway in my car at 75-80 mph which is great but the N20 is supposed to do 10-15% better. Plus it has DI, auto-stop/start and other features designed to increase gas mileage.

Edit: One more point. If the N20 didn't get better mileage than the n52, why would BMW spend millions developing the engine?

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

I think you're still missing the point.

Not at all. What brings the much better fuel economy is not the N20, rather the 8 spd tranny, auto stop and start, and many other measures.

I used the new 528i with the N52 and 8 spd as an example. It is only 2 mpg less than the N20 528i, but then it likely also lacked a few fuel saving features in the newer N20 528i.

Originally Posted by dtc100

Not at all. What brings the much better fuel economy is not the N20, rather the 8 spd tranny, auto stop and start, and many other measures.

I used the new 528i with the N52 and 8 spd as an example. It is only 2 mpg less than the N20 528i, but then it likely also lacked a few fuel saving features in the newer N20 528i.

The 328 will be a better application for the n20 than the 528 due to the lighter weight. All reports say the F30 328 will get 15-20% better mileage and that's a
due to a combination of the new engine and new fuel economy features. One thing is certain, the n20 328 will be considerably faster than the n52 328 due to the increased power and hugely increased torque. More power and better economy is a slam dunk in this era of CAFE.

Originally Posted by kck7

Yes Audi and now Porsche benefit from their VW parenthood, and I wouldn't be surprised to see those two bringing us 'more for the money' compared to BMW and Benz owing to corporate synergies, sharing of component design and manufacture/sourcing, and so on.

I don't buy/drink that Business School kool-aid. Don't forget that Porsche was doing just fine with the highest profit per vehicle sold than ANY car company before Business School-schooled CEO decided it was time to play rough with the old fox.

By all Business School books, BMW shouldn't exist at all. And they probably wouldn't if they were originally an US company. Yet, they are here and delivering really good goods.

Sometimes (and that's the hardest part to digest for the market-research-to-Power-Point obsessed), the whole just happens to be way bigger than the sum of its parts. Germans (and I would venture to say Europeans in general) are VERY good at that. And that's why I have two European-made vehicles in my garage.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

All reports say the F30 328 will get 15-20% better mileage and that's a
due to a combination of the new engine and new fuel economy features. One thing is certain, the n20 328 will be considerably faster than the n52 328 due to the increased power and hugely increased torque. More power and better economy is a slam dunk in this era of CAFE.

I'd say the mpg improvement comes from not the engine, rather the other features.

Your second point is very valid. A high revving engine is more difficult to drive, and not easily appreciated. BMW needs something to attract Honda V6 and Civic buyers alike, whose cars can jump at the green light faster than the N52.

But then the above may also explain why BMW went with the N20, it is not about fuel economy.