328i v 335i

Originally Posted by dtc100

I'd say the mpg improvement comes from not the engine, rather the other features.

Your second point is very valid. A high revving engine is more difficult to drive, and not easily appreciated. BMW needs something to attract Honda V6 and Civic buyers alike, whose cars can jump at the green light faster than the N52.

But then the above may also explain why BMW went with the N20, it is not about fuel economy.

It's clear we are not going to agree and that's fine. I don't however understand your cynicism of BMW's motives. If it isn't about economy why would BMW make a change in the first place?

And when has BMW given one whit about being faster than Honda's? There are dozens of less expensive cars faster than a 328 now. Entry level BMW's have never been about straight line speed. They only need to compete with the German competition.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

If it isn't about economy why would BMW make a change in the first place?

I thought I had already explained it to you. I just don't know where is my cynicism? I have always said BMW's latest changes were made for increasing market share, by catering to owners of other brands. They have the right to do so.

And when has BMW given one whit about being faster than Honda's? There are dozens of less expensive cars faster than a 328 now. Entry level BMW's have never been about straight line speed. They only need to compete with the German competition.

When has BMW given one whit about having a workable cupholder, or include floormats, or have 17" wheels standard, or make the sport suspension less punishing...?

I wonder if you ever think for a moment before asking.

You think going after MB or Audi will be enough to increase market share? Just ask around, how many BMW/MB/Audi owners today had previously owned a Toyota/Honda/Chevy...?

When people become more financially established, many of them naturally migrate to entry level luxury brands.

Originally Posted by dtc100

I thought I had already explained it to you. I just don't know where is my cynicism? I have always said BMW's latest changes were made for increasing market share, by catering to owners of other brands. They have the right to do so.



When has BMW given one whit about having a workable cupholder, or include floormats, or have 17" wheels standard, or make the sport suspension less punishing...?

I wonder if you ever think for a moment before asking.

You think going after MB or Audi will be enough to increase market share? Just ask around, how many BMW/MB/Audi owners today had previously owned a Toyota/Honda/Chevy...?

When people become more financially established, many of them naturally migrate to entry level luxury brands.

Be nice. I'm not insulting you. Its rude of you to get pissy because i don't see things as you do.

I just disagree with your entire premise. Of course BMW wants more market share but they aren't looking to become the next GM or Honda if that's what you are getting at.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Be nice. I'm not insulting you. Its rude of you to get pissy because i don't see things as you do.

I just disagree with your entire premise. Of course BMW wants more market share but they aren't looking to become the next GM or Honda if that's what you are getting at.

That is the problem, you are consistently wrong about what I am getting at. That is not the same as having difference of opinions.

While BMW is not trying to become the next GM or Honda, they are trying very hard to move from the niche enthusiast market, into the mainstream market. I think even you agreed with this trend.

Therefore I don't understand why when the enthusiasts complain about such trend, you consistently act surprised or even resentful.

Originally Posted by dtc100

That is the problem, you are consistently wrong about what I am getting at. That is not the same as having difference of opinions.

While BMW is not trying to become the next GM or Honda, they are trying very hard to move from the niche enthusiast market, into the mainstream market. I think even you agreed with this trend.

Therefore I don't understand why when the enthusiasts complain about such trend, you consistently act surprised or even resentful.

I completely disagree with this premise. It's been a very long time since BMW catered only to the enthusiast market. It does seem that the 5 and 7 series have become softer but the 3 series has not unless you long for an e46 M3 which makes for a miserable daily driver. And by most accounts the F30 is once again the best luxury sport sedan in the world. And I totally disagree with your thoughts on the new engine.

I remember saying something here about wishing BMW would make the 335 lighter than the 328 to make it faster instead of just upgrading the power. I recently read an article about BMW making big investments into carbon fiber production.

Do you guys think that we might see some sort of "carbon fiber performance option" sort of like the performance exhaust/suspension etc they currently offer on some of the models?

Also I think it would be hilarious if someone from BMW, in the know showed up here to explain their business model and put the bickering above to rest. Wishful thinking I know, but I would enjoy it.

Originally Posted by jackson328xi

I remember saying something here about wishing BMW would make the 335 lighter than the 328 to make it faster instead of just upgrading the power. I recently read an article about BMW making big investments into carbon fiber production.

Do you guys think that we might see some sort of "carbon fiber performance option" sort of like the performance exhaust/suspension etc they currently offer on some of the models?

The new 335i does lose more weight than the new 328i. I would not be surprised though BMW enhances the power output of the stock new 335i, they already did it for the current 335i with the performance edition package.

I seriously doubt they will use carbon fiber to further reduce its weight. It is not only costly, most people don't appreciate the benefit of weight loss, but they all understand more HP since they are constantly brain washed by such ads.

Originally Posted by dtc100

That is the problem, you are consistently wrong about what I am getting at. That is not the same as having difference of opinions.

While BMW is not trying to become the next GM or Honda, they are trying very hard to move from the niche enthusiast market, into the mainstream market. I think even you agreed with this trend.

Therefore I don't understand why when the enthusiasts complain about such trend, you consistently act surprised or even resentful.

Not saying I agree / disagree with your position however it's been my experience the only people who view BMW as an enthusiast brand are the enthusiasts. Everyone else tends to view them as a luxury brand.

Agreed. Porsche is an enthusiast brand - the dominant portion of it's vehicle offerings are designed for driving experience, not luxury. BMW is quite the opposite - the 7-series line-up, x5, x6, 5-series, 6-series, 5-series "GT", the new generation x3....these are all distinctly luxury oriented vehicles. To go a step further, the current top-end 5 series is very distinctly the luxury cruiser.

It's only in the 1-series, 3-series, and Z that sport comes out - and even that is to a diminishing level.

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Agreed. Porsche is an enthusiast brand - the dominant portion of it's vehicle offerings are designed for driving experience, not luxury. BMW is quite the opposite - the 7-series line-up, x5, x6, 5-series, 6-series, 5-series "GT", the new generation x3....these are all distinctly luxury oriented vehicles. To go a step further, the current top-end 5 series is very distinctly the luxury cruiser.

It's only in the 1-series, 3-series, and Z that sport comes out - and even that is to a diminishing level.

I think it is interesting that BMW and Porsche are both moving the center of gravity in their lines away from the sports car segment. BMWs keep getting softer, and Porsche is building SUVs and Family sedans now (granted they are extremely capable examples).

Originally Posted by JoeFromPA

Agreed. Porsche is an enthusiast brand - the dominant portion of it's vehicle offerings are designed for driving experience, not luxury. BMW is quite the opposite - the 7-series line-up, x5, x6, 5-series, 6-series, 5-series "GT", the new generation x3....these are all distinctly luxury oriented vehicles. To go a step further, the current top-end 5 series is very distinctly the luxury cruiser.

It's only in the 1-series, 3-series, and Z that sport comes out - and even that is to a diminishing level.

The M cars are BMWs true sports cars and there has been nothing "diminishing" about those lately.

We are talking about the 3ers, not the 5 and 7 series. While BMW certainly cannot compare with Porsche when it comes to driver and enthusiast focused design, for the majority of the enthusiasts Porsche sports cars are not practical alternatives, even if they can afford them.

The earlier 3ers are definitely enthusiast models. The latest models have become more and more just another one of the entry level luxury models.

Porsche's successful entry into the luxury crossover and family sedan segments is not a good comparison here, when their sports cars continue to maintain the enthusiast focus.

BTW I had test driven a Cayenne before, its driveability was overblown. A crossover is a crossover, like the X3, no matter how good it is, it is not built to be driven, rather to haul passengers and luggages. The Panamera is simply out of reach to most of us.

Originally Posted by dtc100

The earlier 3ers are definitely enthusiast models. The latest models have become more and more just another one of the entry level luxury models.

My current 3er (e90) will outperform my e36 in every category you can think of, as a matter of fact it will out perform any stock e36 including the e36 M3. So I have to disagree that they are no longer enthusiast cars.

Originally Posted by dtc100

We are talking about the 3ers, not the 5 and 7 series. While BMW certainly cannot compare with Porsche when it comes to driver and enthusiast focused design, for the majority of the enthusiasts Porsche sports cars are not practical alternatives, even if they can afford them.

The earlier 3ers are definitely enthusiast models. The latest models have become more and more just another one of the entry level luxury models.

Porsche's successful entry into the luxury crossover and family sedan segments is not a good comparison here, when their sports cars continue to maintain the enthusiast focus.

BTW I had test driven a Cayenne before, its driveability was overblown. A crossover is a crossover, like the X3, no matter how good it is, it is not built to be driven, rather to haul passengers and luggages. The Panamera is simply out of reach to most of us.

This is where we have a fundamental difference of opinion. It is nearly unanimous that the e9X is the best 3 series ever for the enthusiast. It is faster and handles better than any previous model. I think, and correct me if I am wrong but you don't like that there are more luxury features and electronics than in the past. I drive a very basic e90 328 with MT. It's definitely a sporty, fine handling luxury sport sedan and by far the most fun to drive car I've ever owned and this includes a CTS, A4, V6 Accord and mid 1990's MT V6 Ford Probe which at that time was a very sporty car.

Originally Posted by kmorgan_260

My current 3er (e90) will outperform my e36 in every category you can think of, as a matter of fact it will out perform any stock e36 including the e36 M3. So I have to disagree that they are no longer enthusiast cars.

The Porsche 911 will outperform the Cayman by a good margin, but the Cayman was voted the best driver's car by a good margin against a group of super enthusiast cars.

The Mustang GT will outperform our E90, but I don't consider it a better enthusiast car.

BTW the best driver's car, if driving is the only measure to consider, should be the Cayman R, with a manual and no AC.

Originally Posted by kmorgan_260

My current 3er (e90) will outperform my e36 in every category you can think of, as a matter of fact it will out perform any stock e36 including the e36 M3. So I have to disagree that they are no longer enthusiast cars.

I did not say they are NO LONGER enthusiast cars. Although I must admit different people use different standards to measure what make them enthusiastic about the cars.

People who throw big motors in their cars to beat each other on the drag strips obviously consider their cars enthusiast cars, and our BMWs are no match to theirs in this regard.

To take it one step further. A new gen of the same model will almost certainly have to outperform its predecessor, if the manufacture is to stay competitive, or even stay in the business.

Are we prepared to conclude, therefore a new gen will always be more an enthusiast car than the earlier one, and end this debate once and for all?

Originally Posted by dtc100

We are talking about the 3ers, not the 5 and 7 series. While BMW certainly cannot compare with Porsche when it comes to driver and enthusiast focused design, for the majority of the enthusiasts Porsche sports cars are not practical alternatives, even if they can afford them.

I have to reiterate what I said earlier. People don't distinguish between the 3, 5, and 7 series when it comes to luxury. To them they're all luxury cars. On many occasions I've had to explain the difference to non-enthusiasts.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I have to reiterate what I said earlier. People don't distinguish between the 3, 5, and 7 series when it comes to luxury. To them they're all luxury cars. On many occasions I've had to explain the difference to non-enthusiasts.

It is these people BMW must please, in order to expand its market share. The end result is inevitable, the 3 is more and more like the 5, and therefore less of an enthusiast's car.

Originally Posted by dtc100

It is these people BMW must please, in order to expand its market share. The end result is inevitable, the 3 is more and more like the 5, and therefore less of an enthusiast's car.

It depends on how you define enthusiast. If you define it as a minimalist configuration with an emphasis on performance, like 16n19 does, then it certainly has become less of an enthusiasts car. However there are other enthusiasts who don't hold the minimalist opinion and welcome the improvements newer models offer over older ones as long as the vehicle remains fun to drive. As kmorgan_260 points out his 335i outperforms earlier generation 3-series vehicles, retains the fun to drive aspect, and has a lot of improvements that add luxury to the car. I would say there's more kmorgan_260's type of enthusiasts compared with 16n69 types. After all there are many enthusiasts who use their vehicles as as a daily driver and the creature features make it more enjoyable for everyday driving.

Originally Posted by dtc100

It is these people BMW must please, in order to expand its market share. The end result is inevitable, the 3 is more and more like the 5, and therefore less of an enthusiast's car.

Can you explain how the 3 is more like a 5 series? And what about this makes it less of an enthusiasts car?

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Can you explain how the 3 is more like a 5 series? And what about this makes it less of an enthusiasts car?

It's now nearly as large as prior 5 Series (E39, I think). My E90 drives heavy. It's fast and handles well but the size of it and the feel of that heft in the way it drives makes me look to the 1 Series, which of course is only marginally lighter, but at least it's closer to a traditional 3 Series size..

Originally Posted by johnc_22

It's now nearly as large as prior 5 Series (E39, I think). My E90 drives heavy. It's fast and handles well but the size of it and the feel of that heft in the way it drives makes me look to the 1 Series, which of course is only marginally lighter, but at least it's closer to a traditional 3 Series size..

Size is one thing and all cars have gotten bigger over time. The Civic is the same size as the original Accord. I don't think that's what dtc100 means though I may be wrong.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

It depends on how you define enthusiast. If you define it as a minimalist configuration with an emphasis on performance, like 16n19 does, then it certainly has become less of an enthusiasts car. However there are other enthusiasts who don't hold the minimalist opinion and welcome the improvements newer models offer over older ones as long as the vehicle remains fun to drive. As kmorgan_260 points out his 335i outperforms earlier generation 3-series vehicles, retains the fun to drive aspect, and has a lot of improvements that add luxury to the car. I would say there's more kmorgan_260's type of enthusiasts compared with 16n69 types. After all there are many enthusiasts who use their vehicles as as a daily driver and the creature features make it more enjoyable for everyday driving.

I simply used your own definition below to define "enthusiasts." What you just said cannot be used by you, against me.

Originally Posted by sunny5280

I have to reiterate what I said earlier. People don't distinguish between the 3, 5, and 7 series when it comes to luxury. To them they're all luxury cars. On many occasions I've had to explain the difference to non-enthusiasts.

You defined a non-enthusiast as one who does not distinguish a 3 from a 5. Therefore BMW by making the 3 just like a 5, naturally has made the 3 not much an enthusiast's car.

Originally Posted by Michael Schott

Size is one thing and all cars have gotten bigger over time. The Civic is the same size as the original Accord. I don't think that's what dtc100 means though I may be wrong.

Size is always one of the most important measures. It separates a driver focused car from a family focused car.

There are other factors, the driver's connection to the road is also a important measure. The 3's unique steering feel is a good example, not likely to be duplicated in the F30.