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F10 / F11 (2011 - Current)
The new chapter in the highly successful story of the BMW 5 Series Sedan (F10) and wagon (F11)

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  #26  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:12 AM
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In a straight line you should have the edge but not when the road turns twisty.
As with any road course you have both straights and turns, so a car that is slow in the straights and quick on the twisties isn't always the winner. On the drag strip though, you only have a straight.
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  #27  
Old 12-18-2011, 05:46 AM
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Stealth, that would be overkill. For that $10k more, you only get a V6 Panny. When I was car shopping, the Panny 4s I was considering stickered for $117k, or $45k more than what I paid for my fully loaded 550xi. With those kinds of price deltas, the Panny Turbo was the only model that made sense to me.
I'm talking msrp, the panamera s I test drove was 94K and came with a V8 and was pretty well equipped. The msrp for my car was 79k so I was wrong it's more like 15k but still not a huge deal breaker when were talking about this price range anyways. Obviously I think the 550 is better or else I wouldn't have bought it but the panamera feels significantly sportier to me and as some one said if I was to take one of these two on road Atlanta I'd pick the panamera 10 times out of 10. Straight line it's hard to beat a turbo car because their so easy to mod but Porsche has a huge aftermarket as well and don't be surprised if you find some fast ones out there.
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  #28  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
In any street race my 550i Dinan S2 will crush a Panamera S and if anyone disagrees I challenge them to a race to settle the matter.
Not that any intelligent owner would do so, but if you were immature enough to street race, a Panamera Turbo or Turbo S will, of course, crush a 550i Dinan S2. A Nissan GT-R will crush both.

The only condition of entry for the Turbo and Turbo S is your willingness to pony up the asking price. Porsches aren't cheap. If the price difference bothers you, you weren't the intended market for the Porsche. We've flogged this horse to death, but it is what it is. You have to pay to play.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 06:26 AM.
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  #29  
Old 12-18-2011, 06:24 AM
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what a spirited discussion !! There is not one car in the market that can match the looks and the feel and the interior of the 5 series NOT one. The infinity M56.. I would touch that even if has a rocket built in.. it is just hideous!! Sorry no personal offence
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  #30  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:00 AM
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For price and performance I don't think anything touches the 550i.
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  #31  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:28 AM
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Originally Posted by Leslierc View Post
For price and performance I don't think anything touches the 550i.
The E550 only comes as a 4Matic, but it's broadly equivalent to the 550i xDrive in terms of power and torque but it's around 500lbs lighter. It weighs less than the RWD 550i. It's a pretty good match for the 550, in either RWD or AWD.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 07:36 AM.
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  #32  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:47 AM
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Not that any intelligent owner would do so, but if you were immature enough to street race, a Panamera Turbo or Turbo S will, of course, crush a 550i Dinan S2. A Nissan GT-R will crush both.

The only condition of entry for the Turbo and Turbo S is your willingness to pony up the asking price. Porsches aren't cheap. If the price difference bothers you, you weren't the intended market for the Porsche. We've flogged this horse to death, but it is what it is. You have to pay to play.
Talk is cheap. I stand by my offer.

As for ridiculous comment about it being immature, I don't think so. I think the people who have left speed limits at 1950s levels are immature. It has long ago been proven that you can drive long distances at high speeds safely.

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  #33  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
In any street race my 550i Dinan S2 will crush a Panamera S and if anyone disagrees I challenge them to a race to settle the matter.
That could be true but if you want competition come to the track.
Always something that will "settle the matter". Great drivers will settle the matter with lower HP vehicles too.
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  #34  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
Talk is cheap.
Challenging strangers to a race - an illegal street race at that - on an internet forum is cheap, not to mention staggeringly immature. It's playground talk.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 07:53 AM.
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  #35  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:54 AM
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If you want fast..... look at what the GT-R Stock does.
Modified STIs or even WRX will put many others to shame with surprising low price points.
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  #36  
Old 12-18-2011, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by swajames View Post
Challenging strangers to a race - an illegal street race at that - on an internet forum is cheap, not to mention staggeringly immature. It's playground talk.
From the way you swagger and taking pot shots in this forum at the F10, wins the cheapest talk award
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  #37  
Old 12-18-2011, 09:41 AM
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From the way you swagger and taking pot shots in this forum at the F10, wins the cheapest talk award
Swajames is right on about discouraging talk of street races in these forums. I don't know why you think he is bashing the F10. The E550 in its latest iteration is a competitor to the BMW 550i as is the Audi A6 and the Infiniti M56. I am a loyal BMW 5 Series V8 buyer (3 of my last 4 cars) and love BMWs but am not blindly loyal to the point of not seeing the brand's strengths and weaknesses. Pointing out the places where the F10's competitors now have an edge (weight/handling/ and CERTAINLY tires as BMW has gone nuts in its use of RFTs that are not ready for prime time) doesn't mean one is bashing the F10. Competition makes better cars.

Think of how fast a Dinan Stage 2 550 would be if it weighed 550 pounds less-0 to 60 in less than 4 seconds.
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Last edited by sdg1871; 12-18-2011 at 11:00 AM.
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  #38  
Old 12-18-2011, 09:49 AM
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One could also consider the upcoming S6 and S7 as I don't think they will compete with the M5.
I realize that the E550 is an obvious competitor, but what about CLS 550?
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  #39  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:04 AM
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One could also consider the upcoming S6 and S7 as I don't think they will compete with the M5.
I realize that the E550 is an obvious competitor, but what about CLS 550?
The Gran Coupe will compete with the CLS--not the F10.
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  #40  
Old 12-18-2011, 10:57 AM
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I think swajames got it right, there are many competitors with similar virtues as the F10 but only one has a big enough mill to compete with the 550 and that's the E550. The Panamera is in another league and is not aimed at the 5 series but the Pajun is and I suspect that it will punish the establishment once released.
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  #41  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:02 AM
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I think swajames got it right, there are many competitors with similar virtues as the F10 but only one has a big enough mill to compete with the 550 and that's the E550. The Panamera is in another league and is not aimed at the 5 series but the Pajun is and I suspect that it will punish the establishment once released.
I am looking forward to this car.....but not Porsche pricing.



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  #42  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:11 AM
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There are many competitors with similar virtues as the F10 but only one has a big enough mill to compete with the 550 and that's the E550. The Panamera is in another league and is not aimed at the 5 series but the Pajun is and I suspect that it will punish the establishment once released.
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I am looking forward to this car.....but not Porsche pricing.

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I'm thinking that Porsche knows that it has to be very competitive in terms of both capabilities and pricing for this car, it's not like the Panamera where the (justifiable) argument is that it competes with the likes of the S Class/7 Series/Quattroporte/Rapide etc, this car is going to be going head to head with the 5 Series and E Class and Porsche is going to have to work hard to make it stand out. I thunk you're right that it's a pretty safe bet that there will be an inevitable pricing premium, but I'm hoping and expecting it to be within the bounds of reason.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 11:12 AM.
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  #43  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:12 AM
solstice solstice is offline
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I am looking forward to this car.....but not Porsche pricing.



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Same here but I think the Panamera will help keeping prices moderate since it doesn't make sense for Porsche to price the Pajun at Panamera level.
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  #44  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:23 AM
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SWAjames is wrong. The Panamera S is slower than the 550 Dinan. It has only one advantage and that is fatter tires. But it has similar weight, less horsepower (400 vs 501) and a lot less torque (370 vs 580). The 550i Dinan has 192hp per ton, vs 150hp per ton in the Panamera.

I am doubtful that a Panamera could beat me on a track, maybe on a short autocross track, but not a power circuit like Homestead's infield-oval street circuit. And if I upgraded my wheels to lighter forged ones with wider M5 spec tires, then it is over for the Porsche - no advantage anywhere.
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  #45  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:43 AM
swajames swajames is offline
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Originally Posted by Stealth.Pilot View Post
SWAjames is wrong. The Panamera S is slower than the 550 Dinan. It has only one advantage and that is fatter tires. But it has similar weight, less horsepower (400 vs 501) and a lot less torque (370 vs 580). The 550i Dinan has 192hp per ton, vs 150hp per ton in the Panamera.

I am doubtful that a Panamera could beat me on a track, maybe on a short autocross track, but not a power circuit like Homestead's infield-oval street circuit. And if I upgraded my wheels to lighter forged ones with wider M5 spec tires, then it is over for the Porsche - no advantage anywhere.
You didn't read my post. I didn't and don't disagree that a stock, unmodified Panamera S, with only 400hp, will be slower in a straight line than a modified F10 with nearer to 500. I didn't make any claims to the contrary. The Panamera S will, however, have an advantage in terms of handling, it will feel sharper, it has no throttle lag and it's much more of a precision tool that than a Dinan F10 which at the end of the day is more brute than finesse.

What I did say was that a Panamera Turbo and a Panamera Turbo S will, on the other hand, be much quicker than your modified F10. You're saddled with consumer grade hardware in terms of the ZF auto, an only moderately sporty suspension and average at best brakes, the Porsche has PDK, torque vectoring, the benefit of much better chassis engineers tuning the suspension and steering, and much better fade-free stock brakes with the option of ceramic composites should you so choose. None of these are available on the F10 550i. It is ultimately a consumer grade vs professional grade discussion. A Panamera Turbo is about as quick as the F10 M5, the Nurburgring times tell you as much, and in your case you have none of the performance hardware from the F10 M5 such as the DCT or the active M differential. You're nowhere near as quick as the F10 M5, so you can't be as quick as a Turbo and you certainly can't be as quick as a Turbo S which will be quicker still. Let's not forget we've seen tests where the F10 has delivered barely over .84 on the skidpad - pretty appalling for a car with supposedly sporting pretensions but entirely appropriate for exactly what BMW set out to build which is a moderately sporty luxury cruiser. You'll see tests where the Panamera pulls closer to 1g. That is where the money goes.

Sure, you can't get a Turbo/Turbo S for F10 550i money, but as noted above, with Porsche, if you want in you have to be prepared to dig quite a bit deeper. You won't find cheap money and cheap leases at a Porsche dealer either. I've already discussed the price differences, and it's true that if you find the price differences objectionable, then you weren't the kind of customer Porsche has in mind. Still, if bang for the buck is important to you, you're better much better off with the GT-R. Unquestionably a better performance per dollar ratio than anything out of Munich or Zuffenhausen.

Still, you can bet your bottom dollar that the F10 wasn't even on the minds of Porsche engineers when the Panamera was in development. The car is aimed squarely at the S Class, the 760 Li/B7, the Quattroporte and the Aston Martin Rapide. The F10 and Panamera comparison is one that seems to exist largely in the minds of those with around 80K or so to spend who find they can get into the lower end of a more prestigious and better engineered car.
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 12:00 PM.
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  #46  
Old 12-18-2011, 11:59 AM
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SWAJames

You have to compare apples to apples. My 550i with its myriad of upgrades has an MSRP of just over $90k ($85k sticker, plus $3.5k Dinan, plus $1.5k Michelins, plus $3.8k Stealth countermeasures). This puts it in PanameraS terrirtory.

Now if you bought a TurboS that would be faster, but an M5 is faster than that. So my point is that at any price point BMW has a faster equivalent model.
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  #47  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:03 PM
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SWAJames

You have to compare apples to apples. My 550i with its myriad of upgrades has an MSRP of just over $90k ($85k sticker, plus $3.5k Dinan, plus $1.5k Michelins, plus $3.8k Stealth countermeasures). This puts it in PanameraS terrirtory.

Now if you bought a TurboS that would be faster, but an M5 is faster than that. So my point is that at any price point BMW has a faster equivalent model.
No you don't. If you have Turbo money you really don't care what you can get an F10 for. It's not on the list, and would never have made the cut. A BMW may be cheaper, but you're buying a less well engineered car from a less prestigious brand. It's priced accordingly, it's a great car and it's much better value for money, but it's lower down the automotive food chain. Anyone with the wherewithal to buy say a Ferrari 458 couldn't give a **** that a GT-R may be faster for less - it's well worth the premium to them, and they are the ones writing the check. Sometimes you don't even have to leave the garage to win
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Last edited by swajames; 12-18-2011 at 12:14 PM.
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  #48  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:11 PM
sdg1871 sdg1871 is offline
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The MB E550 is a direct competitor to the BMW 550i. The Panny is in a different league unless you're talking about the Panny V6. And I'd get a Dinan Stage 2 550i any day over a Panny V6. Oh and the Panny Turbo S is a much faster car than the F10 M5.
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  #49  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:15 PM
jimefam jimefam is offline
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SWAJames

You have to compare apples to apples. My 550i with its myriad of upgrades has an MSRP of just over $90k ($85k sticker, plus $3.5k Dinan, plus $1.5k Michelins, plus $3.8k Stealth countermeasures). This puts it in PanameraS terrirtory.

Now if you bought a TurboS that would be faster, but an M5 is faster than that. So my point is that at any price point BMW has a faster equivalent model.
In that case the 335 Or the CTS V are better because I can take the difference in msrp and make them much faster than your dinan and have change left over. In fact with the CTS V you can get 800whp for about the price of a 550i. You gotta compare stock for stock.
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  #50  
Old 12-18-2011, 12:19 PM
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No you don't. If you have Turbo money you really don't care what you can get an F10 for. It's not on the list, and would never have made the cut. A BMW may be cheaper, but you're buying a less well engineered car from a less prestigious brand. It's priced accordingly, it's better value for money, but it's lower down the automotive food chain. Anyone with the wherewithal to buy say a Ferrari 458 couldn't give a **** that a GT-R may be faster for less - it's well worth the premium to them, and they are the ones writing the check. Sometimes you don't even have to leave the garage to win
I don't know. I think there is a signaling effect. I can comfortably afford it, but to me owning cars like that is sending the wrong message to my community, and especially my clients.

Sometimes winning is not wasting money you have worked hard for. Warren Buffet drives a Lincoln Town Car.
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Last edited by Stealth.Pilot; 12-18-2011 at 12:20 PM.
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